In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the human brain. We like to think that we’re rational beings who happen to have feelings. In actuality, we’re emotional beings who happen to think. This week, I’m talking with Carlos Davidovich, an executive coach and neuromanagement expert, about the five different characters, or aspects of our brains, that make up what he calls our inner team and the importance of understanding which one is in charge at any given time. Here we debunk the myth that you can remove emotions from a given situation and we discuss how all behaviors are triggered by our emotions. We also talk about the inner critic and how to loosen its power.
About My Guest
As a Medical Doctor, TEDx Speaker and international Executive Coach, Carlos Davidovich has a unique insight into what makes us tick.
Raised and educated in Argentina, Carlos draws upon his medical background and understanding of the brain to provide a unique coaching experience to top business leaders and organisations, all based on neuroscience.
He is the author of 'Five Brain Leadership' (2023) and 'Personality DNA' (2022) and currently resides in Madrid, Spain.
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Connect with Carlos:
Website: www.CarlosDavidovich.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Kim, welcome Carlos. I am really excited to have you here today, and I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Carlos Davidovich
Okay, thanks a lot, Kim. I'm delighted to be in your podcast. Thanks a lot for the invitation. And in a nutshell, I mean, I'm born and raised in Argentina. I'm MD, a medical doctor. I work as a medical doctor. Many years at the same time, I was working in pharmaceutical business in the area of biotech. It's quite specific, quite niche. But that was the my experience in business, let's say in corporation, um, around 2000 I decided to move to Europe for personal reason. No work, and I then realized I had to reinvent it myself. So I ended doing what I'm doing today, and without even knowing that I was going to do this. No, no, no, no, no. It was not predicted. Was not planned at all. And ended up doing executive coaching. That's what I do today, and I give a lot of talks and master class and workshops. On the way to define is neuro management, because there's no other word, but in in a nutshell, is how to apply all the latest information that comes from neuroscience in a practical way, not talking about science in organizations and in human behavior and human relationships. That's what I do. So what I give us a lot of talks about to to understand better how our brain reacts in different circumstances, and then people can deal better with themselves and with others. I don't know it makes sense what I'm saying, Yeah. Then in one moment, I was lucky enough to be invited to live and work in Canada. So from Europe, I moved to Canada, and I spent seven years of my life there in Toronto, doing exactly the same, and the pandemic brought me back to Europe, and I'm now currently located in Madrid, Spain. That's a now due one of the consequences of the pandemic. So all of us, we work online, mainly, and that created a situation that was, again, totally unexpected, that is to be coaching, to be able to coach all over the world, literally all over the world, from home. And that is something that really nobody could thought about it before. So this is life, and this is how we need to be open minded and all this stuff. I think, okay, then I wrote a book. I mean, I did a TEDx talk, a book, and talk at the end, but I have a framework of is a metaphor in the end about different brains, about five brains I presented, and that was the, the is the Book about and, and in few words, is about acknowledging and identifying the different narratives that we have inside so the different voices that all of us we have, they are coming from a very specific place. And if we can identify where they're coming from, from the most primitive brain, the most the new one, the emotional one, or whatever, then we can learn how to deal better with them. So and I like to, to talk about how to lead your inner team. Because this inner team are these characters that we have, you know? I mean, one very, very in survival mode all the time. Another and positive emotions could be negative emotions, the rational one that tries to put to put order, but can't do it. And all this is like a like in a normal team, members of a team always there are different, different personality. And we have all those personalities inside of us without being schizophrenic.
Kim Meninger
That is fascinating. Would you be open to just walking us through, you know, the different the different personalities that you're describing?
Carlos Davidovich
Of course, first of all, I want to clarify, because the latest understanding of how the brain works is that the brain works as a whole all together. So what I mean is now we talk about neural let's say highways, these different pathways in the brain. That is the latest. But I love to still bring an old concept that used to divide the brain in three brains. So the oldest one, the reptilian that in one word, is about survival, and so fears is the dominant, let's say, component of that brain. The second one that we inherit from mammals, you know, apes and horses, is the emotional brain. And I like. To clarify, emotions we know today are distributed all over the body, but the headquarter is in the brain. Is what we call the brain, and the headquarter is this emotional brain, technically called limbic doesn't matter. And the emotions, of course, they play a different music, and they, they, they have different law of how to behave, how to influence us. The newbie in the in the block is the rational brain. So if the reptilian is known for 500 million years, the rational, irrational brain in the way we understand is 100,000 nothing. But this has a very concrete consequences. The consequence is still we don't trust the rational brain. The brain we trust the most is the reptilian and emotional because of the old, the oldies, you know and, and we know that we are still alive, thanks for a survival mechanism. So that's not by chance, but today has, I will say, could have negative consequences. I also talk about five brains, because we have neurons in our heart that is a new information, and it's still very, very, very much connected with emotions. I don't want to go deeper on this, because it's too technical, and we want to talk about different things today, and we have a whole nervous system in our gut. And you know that lately became so trendy, you know, to talk about the gut brain. All of them are intertwined, but they have different functions, and they have different narratives, so they influence us in a different way. Make sense so far. And I like to.. sorry.
Kim Meninger
Yes, it makes great sense.
Carlos Davidovich
And I like to clarify, and I always challenge people saying, Who is leading? That's the question, because our real self that should be in charge, can, I will say, lead and administrate the other five. So there is a real self that can be observing ourselves. You know, the technical name is metacognition, where we can see ourselves from outside and to determine which one is influencing me at this moment, and if I can identify, and this is just a training, I mean, it's very simple, by the way, at the moment, you recognize the characters that are in play, then you know how to deal with that. Okay, so if it's a reptilian reaction, you need to know that needs to be calm. You know, needs to understand that is no danger around. Depends on the kind of emotions. Also you need to, to give a food to, to feed those kind of emotions that the emotional brain will not be blocking. Irrational thinking, for instance. And Russian rational brain plays in a different league, but it doesn't have so much power. Normally, the other brains are the one that taking care, but no high shocking, the rational one, you know. I mean, do you see these people arguing and fighting and today, even though the content that they bring to fight is really rational, but what is behind is I want to win. So the real intent is not about being rational. It's about winning. Therefore, therefore is nothing to do about the content. Is about the context. I don't want to derail okay. You are sorry. You ask, honey. I always found it, but this, this dynamic happens inside of us, all of us. And when I coach my, my clients always would try to identify which part of my client is really in charge, because that will create the consequence, the outcome. The outcome depends who is in charge. That's why the concept is you need to learn how to lead your internal teams, and then you can lead outside.
Kim Meninger
So this is fascinating to me. I could spend all day talking about this, but I, I just want to comment because I think a lot of people think it's their rational brain in charge.
Carlos Davidovich
Absolutely.
Kim Meninger
And so when we go into the workplace in particular and we're interacting with each other, we assume that we're coming from a rational place, and we, we assume that everyone around us is rational too. And when things start to break down, then we start to think, Oh, it must be me, right? It must be something wrong with me.
Carlos Davidovich
Absolutely. This is a big, the big misunderstanding say how we can, I will say how we can cheat ourselves number one and, and even though, if you, if you have 15 minutes to, to waste watch my TED talk, and because I know I present a I, I leverage coaching bullies and bullies. Bullies are okay. It's a very interesting character. They are. You know, I love to coach them. I will never work for them. I can't. I would be destroying myself. But the point is that they are absolutely convinced that they are very rational, and it's exactly the opposite. They are the most primitive brain in charge when a bully is being a bully. So it's a reptilian brain that the only thing is looking for is win, win. We can go deeper. It's a defense mechanism. They learn that attacking they are safe whatever you want, you know, because in the end, we can analyze that, but don't let them believe that they are rational because they are not. They're absolutely far away from rational.
Kim Meninger
And do you, in your work with them, help them understand that? Like, how do you get them? Because a lot of times I find people with that personality type think other people are the problem, not them, [absolutely]. So, you know, how are there ways to help them see that?
Carlos Davidovich
It's a great question. Kim. When I'm invited to coach this type of personality. I already have some kind of dynamic process how to talk to them first because, first of all, I want to discharge that is not a psychopath, and I'm serious on that people that will never change, because they're absolutely okay in the way they are. So I have certain questions. They do they want, I mean, in a they call the chemistry meeting. I mean when we meet the first time, and to really find out, found out if that person is really willing to change. Because you can see it's very easy. I apply certain techniques are very easy. And at the moment I see that it's so firm in, in his or her position because there's no gender differences. It's the same. I am. I'm out of the game, so I not even go into them. So normally, they are very successful people, number one, very top positions in the organization. So and they, they think that they got to this place due to the way they were behaving. That's wrong. So then my question number one, and without going too deep on this, is I tell them on purpose. I say, Listen, okay. I mean, supposed to be your coach, blah, blah, blah, but to decide if I want to coach you, and I do it on purpose, you need to convince me that you have at least one reason, one motivation, to make any change in your personality. If you don't convince me, the game is over and I leave time, and sometimes we meet again in a week or whatever, but I give a homework. I said, you need to convince me, because men or women doesn't matter. I mean, you are very successful. You are very intelligent because they are they know a lot about the topic, and you feel that you are in this place because of those characteristics that I don't agree I also tell them, so why to change?
Kim Meninger
Right, right?
Carlos Davidovich
So why to change? It's too risky. So if you have, and I tell you, I have so many stories about reasons, I mean the reasons that people tell you, and then I say, Okay, now we have a good reason. Let's work. And then, from that perspective, is to engage them from day one, if not, if not, they are, they will challenge you all the time, and they will just to try to confirm a confirmation bias, to confirm that they're okay. And I mean, I know, I know how the bias work in the brain, works in the brain, so, so then I try not to get into that game, because it's no, no way out.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think that working with people like that has such an effect on our own confidence and our own mental health in many ways, right? There's, there's so much that we read into other people's behaviors and make it about ourselves and, and that's one of the things that I always try to tell people, is like it doesn't make it any less unpleasant to work with people who show up that way, but it's important for you to know that that's because of their story like that. That's their, their history, or their stuff that's coming out, right? It's not about you.
Carlos Davidovich
Yeah, but if we go now to the topic that's your expertise, the imposter syndrome, then is a, I would say, is a very dangerous relationship, because when the both imposter syndrome is too intense to say something or too present a RR, what would be the, the right way to say it in English, they are, I don't know the word comes to my mind, okay, easy food for this kind of personality to eat them completely. I don't know if sounds I was translating from Spanish. I don't know if it sounds good in English.
Kim Meninger
Exactly what you're saying right there. They see them as prey.
Carlos Davidovich
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, so it's very easy. So and these people, of course, they, I will say, reinforced the feeling of imposter syndrome, and then we have a very toxic relationship.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. And so do you think the I mean, there are power dynamics involved here. It's different to have someone like that as a peer than it is to have someone as a manager, right? But given that so much of the solution lies within the individual who's demonstrating these behaviors. What options exist for the person who's on the receiving end who has to work with someone like this? Like is it? Is it really just you need to find another job?
Carlos Davidovich
In many cases, yes. But when I coach people with imposter syndrome that are, let's say they are suffering somebody as a peer or as a boss, could be in any place. And then I try to present as an opportunity, because if that person is open enough, it has an opportunity to work a lot in themselves, him or her. And what I'm trying to say is the richness of somebody with imposter syndrome is higher than those blind spots to people that they don't suffer imposter syndrome. I don't know if I'm explaining myself. What I'm trying to say is imposter syndrome is an extreme, I will say, an exaggerated, way to see yourself, to judge yourself, right? So all of us, we have things that we are not good at. I mean, that we need to improve. But people that imposter syndrome is present, they focus more on those downsides that in the positive side, so and, and all of us, we have a 5050, or kind of, you know, I mean things that we are very good, things we are not. Then that's what I say, that is a great opportunity to understand themselves. Now, I will say to start being mindful about the other 50% of themselves.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes.
Carlos Davidovich
Not saying that what they feel is not correct. So I never, I never confront them directly about the imposter syndrome where we work on is what good information is bringing you to change, or at least to move from that place to a more positive and productive place.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and what would you say for the person who's struggling with imposter syndrome? What, what part of their brain is in charge in that at that moment?
Carlos Davidovich
The main one is a combination. The main one is of reptilian brain in a negative activation. It's activated in a negative way, because is there a remember that the basic law of reptilian brain is whatever is different than me is looks different than me, talks different than me is potentially danger. So I need because it's not right on my drive Yeah, or my on my head, or whatever. So then I need to be aware of my strength and my weakness because I need to be prepared. People with imposter syndrome, they are more focuses on the weakness that in the strength, and they are not compensated, both of them, the two other side, the two sides, and then they never feel good enough. There's a typical saying, and they never feel they can really they. Be challenged, or they can win in whatever circumstance. So that's why I'm saying but, but there is a richness there. The richness is the level of self-observation, and then the work in my coaching practice, how to work together to make the shift. And don't get me wrong, the chief is, no, I'm great. It's not the polarity about I'm the Wonder Woman or the cockroach, you know? I mean, it's not about that. It's about the gray area in the middle to work on that.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I could not agree with you more. I think about, I know imposter syndrome is not something that you would be diagnosed with, right? In the medical profession, but I do see it as a form of anxiety in many ways, right? It's that fear that you're talking about. It's that fear of something bad is going to happen because I'm not good enough, right? And so in a sort of reinforces all of the things that we are insecure about, we neglect this other talking about of all of the positives, all of the ways in which we're already doing a good job, or we're contradicting the narrative, right? exactly
Carlos Davidovich
Exactly. Again but it's not to, it's not to expose the person to, let's say, all the positive sides to neutralize the other one is to find the bridge on how to connect the two of them.
Kim Meninger
That's a great way to put it, yes, yes.
Carlos Davidovich
Because at the moment you start saying, and I, I work with one assessment that's quite deep on personality traits. And sometimes I see a lot of positive things in the assessment, and I know that person is not aware of and always I say, Listen, right now then saying this is very positive about you. Your inner critic is telling you don't believe to Carlos. He doesn't know you. He tries to be nice. And they laugh, of course, because yeah, exactly. Is that what happened? So okay, I'm not saying that the other side is not there, but let's try to work on how to balance the two sides.
Kim Meninger
Yes because there's a distortion there too, right? [Absolutely.] Yeah. And so do you have any tips on for, for anyone listening? Obviously, the, the key would be to work with you and go through this process in a much more rigorous way. But are there any sort of starter tips that you would recommend to say, like, if you want to balance out how you see yourself, start here?
Carlos Davidovich
Sometimes, not always, I give a homework, and the homework is write down very clearly and in detail all the reasons why you feel an imposter. So to write down to very, very detail, and now write the other column. What will be the opposite of that? What don't think about yourself, you don't have it, okay, but What? What? What is the correspondence of the opposite of that characteristic that is pulling is holding you back. There's always a policy. There is a polarity, right? I mean, there's always, there's a duality. And when they start writing the other list, not thinking about them because they can't, but they start, and then we start working on recognizing that many of those characteristics this person already have it, that's it. And then I try to ask for concrete situations where that person was applying these positive things. And let's be clear, I mean, at the moment that these people arrived to, to me, I mean, in one way or the other, they were doing great things. So good thing doesn't matter. So, so I'm already playing with events you may have my I mean, I play, I play, knowing already that they can. So this is not coaching a kid, you know. I mean, that you are not still, what is the future? They already have a lot of a lot of information that I already know that they were very successful in many things. That those success are blind spot for them. Is another story. If they are not able to understand or to value those things, this is different story, and that's what we need to work on so they're blind spots. [Yeah, yeah.] It doesn't. It doesn't mean they don't have it. Because if, no, they will not come into a coach. I mean, they will. I mean, they will be failing, failing, failing, failing. I don't know what is the result, but that's not the case. [That's right.] All of them, I like to use the metaphor they were, they were walking or running. You getting things done with a backpack of stones. So, so let's try to move those, to try to, to allege you a, let's say the weight of those that backpack. Because even though, when we have already been the transfer is there and whatever, even though I say, My God, your level of strength is enormous, because you can, you were able to do A, B, C and D, I mean, and I'm just referring to the life carrying on this backpack of stones, this is a lot of work to do, and energy consuming, and you were able to do it this kind of inner critic. Let's call I mean, there's all the time judging you in a negative way was always there. Another you were asking about tips. Another thing I work so depends on the situation, on the person. I play different things right? The other one, we talk a lot about, that inner critic voice is not you. It's, I call it based on my background, I call it a virus that got into you when you were very, very young. And of course, it's a combination of the interaction family and your personality. It's not this is not about blaming parents. Okay, it's about is the interaction between parents and the way you receive the information. And this inner critic has a virus, as, in a funny way, has very specific characteristic. Number one, I say three characters. Number one is not you. Is something that is with you for so many years that you already believe that it's you, but it's wrong. The second is that is always, if you pay attention and you write down the narrative of this inner critic is always saying the same. It's a broken record. It's always the same because that inner critic is blind. This is the third characteristic. Blind means everything that this inner critic is saying is talking to the little you is totally blind to all your achievements as an adult. And you can see in their eyes when they perfectly understand this. Wow, now I got it. It's not talking to you. It's talking to him too little you, that voice never grew up. He's repeating the same thing, and even though doesn't know the power that has, we are giving the power to the voice. The voice is powerless. We are giving the power. Okay, let's work on how to take the power back.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yeah. So we've grown and changed, but the voice has not.
Carlos Davidovich
No exactly, because the because he's blind, he doesn't know that we grew up,
Kim Meninger
yeah, and so the, the process obviously takes time, right? It's not something that we change immediately. But do you think that when you if we go back for a moment to the different brain characters that you suggested. Is there a way to shift more quickly from into the rational brain, from the reptilian brain, like, Are there tips that for people who are in the middle of, so, for example, a lot of times I'm working with people who are overcome with anxiety because someone asks them a question they don't know the answer to, and all sudden, they become flooded with this inner critic voice and they can't think clearly. Is there a way to get back on track in that moment?
Carlos Davidovich
When you said before about anxiety, I would say the inner critic not necessarily, will trigger psychological issues that depends on the personality. So the inner critic could be just a voice that is bothering you all the time, or you can have panic attacks. Yeah, I mean serious stuff, and I always recommend look for help. I mean real help. And if you need medication, you need medication, please. So it's totally normal, regular, accepted. It should be that way when we start identifying this inner critic. The point I also like to say, based on my experience, can we delete that voice? In my experience? The answer is no, but what we can do is to download the volume that's for sure, to recognize, okay, the voice again, is there, you know, so to, to. The power from the voice that we can do it will stay in our back in our head. Yes, you said how to move from this reptilian reaction to the rational no, no, no, you cannot do that. The rational brain doesn't have that power where we need to move it from the reptilian brain to positive emotion, because any change in behavior is based on an emotional input. It doesn't exist a human change in behavior that's not supported, let's say, or triggered by emotions. [Yeah.] So we are emotional, you know, you know, the same. We are emotional beings with a brand new rational software. They still we don't trust.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes. And I think that is so important for people to hear, because we still hear people say, I take the emotion out of it, right emotions along in the workplace.
Carlos Davidovich
That, that is not how human brains are made, even though that's part of my one of my presentation discussion with my clients, and I will be very determinant. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist a human, pure rational decision. The brain, the human brain, is not prepared to make 100% a rational decision cannot. Every single decision is triggered by some kind of emotion. The problem is that the word emotional has a very negative marketing in the world. We when we say you are emotional, we say it in a negative way in every language the same, but it's not what we are talking about. We are talking emotions in more nuance, in more subtle way you know how they influence on us. Emotions are connected with our past story, with our, I mean, connection with people with many, many, many, many things and always they are there a emotion and motivation. They have the same Latin root as word. They mean exactly the same Latin is move very or to take action. The only way to take action is through some kind of emotion. If not, we can't that's why, first of all, okay, we have no robots. You know robots, they respond to orders and they and the, the huge transformation that they are trying to is how to introduce emotion in a robot that so far, thank God, it's not possible. So what they try to do is how to make them understand emotion that is possible because that could be a problem.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, well, I just think this, even this recognition, is so important, because I think we're fighting an uphill battle if we think we can actually remove emotions from any situation that we're in
Carlos Davidovich
That's to be in denial, that's to be in denial totally. This is not how the human brain works.
Kim Meninger
Right, right? Yeah, oh my gosh. I Carlos. I could seriously talk to you all day. I'm going to read your book. I am going to follow you. I think you've given us some really important insights. I think just helping people recognize those even, as you said, though we understand that the brain works as a whole, understanding that different pieces are in charge at different at different times is important. And that inner critic to really being able to rethink the power of the inner critic, [exactly] is really, really helpful. How can people find, if they want to learn more about you, your work book?
Carlos Davidovich
Okay, LinkedIn is a good way. I mean, Carlos Davidovich, or I have a website, www.carlosdavidovich.com and that's the best way to connect to me, I think. And there is a book called Five Brain Leaderships that is everywhere. And the TED talk also is in YouTube. So those are places to find but if they want to connect to a contact me and they think LinkedIn is the easiest way, my website, also, right from through my website, also, I will receive the email for sure.
Kim Meninger
Well, I'm going to make sure those links are on in the show notes as well, for anyone who is interested, thank you again for having this conversation with me. It's been fantastic.
Carlos Davidovich
No come on. It was great. Kim talking. It's a great connection.