In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the constant need that so many of us feel to prove ourselves. And with that need often comes the belief that we’re not doing enough. This insidious way of thinking is pervasive in the workplace, particularly among women and members of marginalized groups. But what if you get to decide what’s enough? This week, I’m talking with Jamie Lee, a fellow executive coach who helps women who hate office politics get promoted. She and I explore how the context in which we operate primes us to experience impostor syndrome. And she shares some powerful steps you can take to manage anxiety and show up more confidently.
About My Guest
Jamie Lee is a certified executive coach who helps smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. In her practice, she blends the best of negotiation strategies with practical neuroscience techniques, so her clients lead and negotiate with confidence and ease.
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Connect with Jamie:
Website: www.jamieleecoach.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamieleecoach
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Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
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Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Jamie, it is such a pleasure to meet you. I'm really excited for our conversation today. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Jamie Lee
Thank you so much for having me here on your podcast Kim. My name is Jamie. I'm an executive coach for smart women who hate office politics. And I know you're thinking who actually loves it? But believe it or not, there are some folks who are like this play the game, right? And I help smart women who hate office politics get promoted get better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. And I see it this way. I do it through three key components, number one, through self-directed neuroplasticity tools so that we can start we can we can interrupt patterns of behavior, patterns of thinking, feeling and doing that don't serve our growth. And number two, from an intersectional feminist lens, from understanding the context in which we are operating the context in which we are conditioned to have impostor syndrome thoughts. And then number three, adding the mutual benefit negotiation strategies so that you are advocating and negotiating for the growth that you want.
Kim Meninger
Oh, I can't wait to dive into this. And I want to start because you mentioned office politics, which as you and I were talking about before I hit record is always the thing that everybody hates. And everyone kind of cringes when you use that term. Can you tell me how you define office politics?
Jamie Lee
I define office politics as when you experience other people, usually people who have more positional authority, using or misusing their influence and power for personal gain, for reasons that are at odds against shared goals or, or at odds, or against what you want. Yeah, so it's conflict. That's, you know, people using or misusing influence to put their own personal agenda that's at odds with what you should be working towards together, or what you believe in.
Kim Meninger
I love that definition. I think that's a really great way to capture it, because I think we all sort of know office politics when we see it, but we don't necessarily define it. And I think a lot of it is just expected behavior in many ways when you bring humans together that have fragile egos, and limited resources. And, you know, everybody has different ways of coping in those kinds of stressful, competitive environments. And I think sometimes people feel like I either have to leave, or I have to be willing to compromise my values and do things that I don't believe in, in order to get ahead. And so I'm really curious to see what your thoughts are on, you know, I work I know, I work in this political environment, I'm seeing people do these things that are out of alignment with my values, like what are my choices? So do you want to dive into the first piece that you talked about which is the neuroplasticity piece?
Jamie Lee
Yeah. And before I go there, I think, again, you know, the reason why I call myself a feminist coach is because we want to first understand the context in which we are conditioned to have impostor syndrome to experience so much self-doubt. So experienced thoughts like, oh, maybe I don't belong, or maybe I can cut it. Or maybe this isn't a fit, right? It's like, David Foster Wallace, the late author, once gave a talk at Kenyon College in 2005. And he talked about the scenario where there are two fish that are swimming in the water. They're young fish, and they're swimming, and they, they swim past an older fish. And the older fish says, Hey, buddy, how's the water today? And they're like, What water? Right? And so with that said, I want to acknowledge the thing that you said right earlier, we know it when we experienced it, but it's kind of hard to pinpoint it is when people misuse power and authority for personal gain. And the thing about that is that it is often an effect of patriarchal or gender oppression. And we want to acknowledge that even though we have made so many gains in terms of women's career and economic empowerment, 72% of all C-suite positions are still held by men and predominantly white men. And so what does that mean? It means that we don't see ourselves as women or people of color, marginalized identities, we don't see ourselves reflected in that example. And, and also, this is another thing, stereotypically speaking, generally speaking, patriarchal results, I can show them if you asked again from your iPhone. Oops, that was my theory, funny podcasts sorry about that. Okay, let's go back.
Kim Meninger
So we don't see ourselves reflected. Right, which I think is an important point.
Jamie Lee
Yeah, we don't see ourselves reflected. But also, generally speaking, patriarchy when few men or it's not always just men, but when a select few dominate all the power and authority, they have a tendency to sort of not share that power, right? I'm reading this fascinating book called The Patriarchs by Angela Saini. And what she does is she goes into the historical anthropological roots of patriarchy all the way to the prehistoric dates. And she also gives examples of how there are other societies other or you know, how people have organized themselves that are not patriarchal and you could call it matriarchy is just a different way. How people organize their familiar, family, inheritance, wealth, right? Instead of you taking your father's surname, you take your mother's surname, and you live with your mom, and you live with your sister. And you live as a community, right? It's a different way of organizing community that does even to this day exist. It's kind of like when I was reading, I was thinking about Barbie and know how in the movie is this where everything is like almost a feminist utopia. But some of those communities actually do exist on the planet. And the key point that she makes is that it's not just that they're matriarchal in that the power is consolidated with the matriarch. Actually, how they organize and how they distribute power and influence is altogether different, and how people relate to authority is different. So that was a very long-winded way of saying, right, we've had power misused model to us through most of our working experiences. And then that's why we feel so alienated when we think about how we can assume beauty, power, authority influence as women professionals, but what I'm saying is, it doesn't have to be the way we've seen it, or we It doesn't have to be the way we didn't like there are alternatives. And it's not just, you know, us having a different gender, and we're using the same way of consolidating and misusing power, it can be distributed differently.
Kim Meninger
Do you…? Because I'm just imagining people listening and thinking, Well, you don't know my company, if you think there's a different way of doing things, right? Because I think part of it is, we feel so powerless in the cultures that we're part of, because we think to ourselves, Well, I'm only one person, what can I do, and maybe I don't have a lot of direct authority based on my title or where I sit in the org chart. And so I wonder, like, what feels realistic as we think about challenging the system that is so deep-rooted, and people who do have this power, want to hold on to it for dear life, they're not. First of all, you know, openly sharing, but maybe in many cases, even we realize that they're doing it.
Jamie Lee
I totally hear you. I mean, I'll share my experience. Before I became a coach, I worked for a hedge fund. And I was the only photo quote girl, like 28 years old, because I was the only woman in on that trading desk. And it was, it was a very macho sort of, you know, male locker room kind of environment that was not a fit for me. And I also worked at a tech startup where again, the entire C-suite were male and pale, and sometimes Yale. So I didn't see myself reflected, right in that leadership and the culture also reflected the preferences of the people and those people wanted to hang out and connect with more people who look more like them than not, right? So to your point, I think, yes, sometimes you just need to vote with your feet. Right? Sometimes you just need to like assess for yourself. Is this a culture that I can see myself? You know, influencing? Is this a place where I can see myself flourishing? And if not, if there really isn't a culture fit, then yeah, I think it's, it's totally correct to just make a decision for yourself and you vote with your feet.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I appreciate that because I often think that, well, there are a lot of women that, that I talked to, and I've certainly experienced this myself to where you get into a situation. And there are different thoughts that come at you, but one of them is It must be me. So I just need to figure this out, right that everybody else seems to be just fine here. So I, you know, I don't necessarily see myself as having choices, I think like, I just have to have to work through this or that the other side might be, well, I should just be grateful for what I have. And I often think that because there is so much self-doubt, there is this feeling of that we're almost like we're hanging by a thread and that the systems have all the power. And so I don't really have choices, I just have to kind of do it their way, or I'm gonna lose my job. And so I think one of the biggest things that I try to emphasize with people is, you always have the option, it may not be something that you do immediately because, you know, your financial situation, other circumstances may dictate the timeline, but to never feel like a prisoner in your work environment, because then it takes away all of your confidence, all of your power, you feel like you're entirely at the mercy of a culture that doesn't align with your values.
Jamie Lee
Absolutely, you always have a choice. And I want to go back to a question that you asked earlier about neuroplasticity. And also, I want to add one more thing, which is that, you know, if you're listening to this, and you've thought, Oh, is it me? Am I broken? Is there something that I need to fix? I want you to consider that thought coming up is not a reason is that thought doesn't make you an imposter. And, in fact, in a way, like it makes sense that you're having that thought because according to a research that I read in the Harvard Business Review, women are 1.4 times more likely to receive performance evaluation that is both subjective and credible. Right, yeah. And so it could be objective and critical, or it could be subjective and positive, but instead, its objective and critical. And so, you know, we are social animals, and we have a tendency to absorb and pick up on these cues, nonverbal cues from other people. And so if you, if you might, might hearing this might make you even more angry. But I think, you know, choosing anger rather than self-shame, is a more empowering choice. And then some people are hearing this and they're, they're going, but you know what I'm so, so anxious. I'm so, so rapid down. And I just, I just feel like my nervous system gets so activated. And I don't know how I can take the next step, whether that is to update my resume or have a chat with somebody who can help me right. So, you know, you asked about neuroplasticity? So I'd like to give you a technique that many of my clients have found very useful. Yeah, yeah. Reason, again, just to understand the context, you're not broken. If you have those thoughts, your brain is actually working normal. It's called state-dependent learning. Hmm. Right, when you get into this nervous system activation, feeling of self-doubt or anxiety, and then your brain just conjures up more thoughts more thinking more mind spiral, that support that is similar to that state of mind. Right? And so what you want to do is you want to be able to interrupt that pattern. So you can shift even if one degree turn at a time, shift to a different perspective on different brain state.
Kim Meninger
I love that perspective. Can you say more about how to do that?
Jamie Lee
Yes, I want to I want to walk you through it right now. I know. We're right now meeting will resume so you can see me. And I'm going to I'm going to walk you through it. I'm going to talk you through it so that the listener can also follow along. So when we experience impostor syndrome, self-doubt there is also anxiety most often the anxiety that comes along with it. And so, the first thing to know is that anxiety is usually when one hemisphere of the brain is over-activated. In We all know now we have a right brain with liquid, we have two hemispheres, right? And if you're following along with this, I just want you to just think about what is the thing that has you feeling anxious in your career. And where do you experience that anxiety in your body and just notice that, and now, I'm gonna invite you to pick up a small object, a ball, a pen, an iPhone, a protein bar, pick up an object, put it in one hand, and now cross the midline of your body and put that object in your other hand? Okay, and now you're gonna do this again, now, you're gonna take this item across the midline of your body and put it back in that other hand. So from the left hand to the right hand, left hand to the right hand. Okay, so we're just gonna continue this, you're doing great, Kim. So what we're doing now, and if you were watching, you know us on Zoom, you would just notice, me and Cam, we're just passing this pen back and forth, from the right hand to the left hand, the right hand to the right hand, right, crossing the midline of our bodies. As we do that, that's all we're doing. And what we're doing is now we're stimulating blood flow impulses to both sides of the hemisphere. This is called bilateral stimulation. And this technique has been proven to be effective for children with extreme social anxiety, even veterans with PTSD. And so we've been doing it for about a minute, I think. So what you do is just take a pause, and now just check in with yourself. Where was that anxiety? Or were worse the anxiety that you were experiencing? Before? Just check in. And most of the time when I walk my clients through this, you know, they start the session with like, oh, yeah, my anxiety is like eight, seven, or sometimes even nine. Rarely, that's a 10. And then when they do this, for like, a minute or two, they notice this, our student has shipped down, like, oh, it's at a six or four right now. Yeah. And so, um, I think it really helps to, to notice that you have the agency to bring down that level of anxiety, even if it's to a level like four or three, that's manageable enough for you to take action.
Kim Meninger
That is so powerful because I think about that a lot, too, as somebody who has suffered from anxiety throughout much of my life, is, I find anxiety to be useful to the extent that it gives me information like it's a signal, something just happened, right, I got triggered by something around me. Sometimes I know what it is, sometimes I don't. And it just becomes an opportunity to say, Okay, what, what just happened here, right? And then how do I get to a better place? And so I love what you're saying because one of the things about anxiety that I've noticed is that if I get stuck there, I cannot take action. Like there's no problem-solving happening in that state, you have to reduce the anxiety to a level where you can actually then do something, do something to pull yourself out of it to move yourself in a new direction.
Jamie Lee
Yeah, yeah, totally. And sometimes, I just countdown to myself 5-4-3-2-1. And then I physically shift my body, or take one small action, even if it is like I just get up and stretch. That lets me know, like, I have agency to take action and shift in a situation, even if it's just my body, even if it's just a feeling state, right? And that sense of agency, it just continues to grow. As you practice more and more in the 5-4-3-2-1 thing. That's something I learned from Mel Robbins is called, I think the five-second rule.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, yeah. And I was gonna ask you, if there's anything that you would recommend, that's maybe a little bit more subtle or less visible, so that if you're in a meeting, and there are other people around that UBS thing that, you know, doesn't involve big movements that other people might notice.
Jamie Lee
So, this is another technique. That's so super simple. And in fact, I when I teach self-advocacy and negotiation workshops, I encourage everyone to get up and do it with me while holding a power pose. Right? I imagine most people are familiar with the power pose, you stand Hall, you, you take up space, you spread your legs so that you know there is ample space underneath your armpit as well. You, you hold your eye arms on your hips like Wonder Woman. And then in while you do that, or you could just sit up tall in your seat, if you're in the middle of a meeting, you could just sit up tall. And then what you can do is you can just put your eyes fixed your eyes on a focal point. Okay. And you can follow along as well, we can fix your eyes on a focal point. And then in I should add, it really does help to not fixate on a person or a screen to do this. So in coaching sessions, I asked my clients just like shift 45 degrees, so they're picking a spot in the room, then you simply soften or diffuse your focus while maintaining that focal point like having your eyes fixed on that focal point. And then as you soften in diffuse your focus, without moving your eyes, you simply shift your awareness to the periphery of your vision. And immediately because I wear glasses, I noticed the fuzzy frames, I start becoming aware of the two walls, the bookcase to my left windows to my right. My clients also tell me tell me, they noticed the ambient noise in the room, the feel of fabric, the temperature in the room. In other words, they start grounding themselves into the sensory, multi-sensory experience in the present moment. And then I asked my clients just continue to extend that awareness almost as if you can feel the energy of the space behind you. And you could be doing this in the middle of a meeting, you can be doing this when someone is talking to you, right, you know, like, you can be doing it as you're walking in. I'm curious for you, Kim, what do you notice when you do that?
Kim Meninger
You know, it's so interesting when you talked about the ambient noise because I have like a cat water fountain that's always kind of in the background. I never hear anymore, because it's just so always there. But all of a sudden, I started hearing that sound, I started just like noticing things that I never pay attention to like it was a really interesting experience.
Jamie Lee
Yeah. And what you what you did is you went from a narrow focus, which usually means that your brain is a high frequency, beta wave, you know, erratic stress to Alpha brainwaves, which is more calm, relaxed, steady. And you because you went from narrow focus to open focus. Right, and there's a great book called The Open Focus Brain, I do recommend it that goes really deep into this. But it is possible for you to shift your brain state simply by shifting how you focus how you pay attention with your eyes.
Kim Meninger
I love that. And I really appreciate that. That is something you could do in the moment. Because I think that's really one of the things that people struggle with most is what do I do? When I get like hijacked in that moment? And it feels like, I can't I freeze, right? I can't do anything. So having these tools available is really important.
Jamie Lee
Totally, totally. And you know, going back to what we're talking about, we when, when our brains do get hijacked, we forget that just by you showing up today, if you have a job, yeah, you're in your career just by you showing up today, you added value. And we forget sometimes it's just simply our presence that adds value. So we don't have to be doing amazing things. And in negotiation, if they're talking to you, that means you have leverage.
Kim Meninger
I love that. Say more about that. Because I think too often and I, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say anybody who's listening to this podcast struggles with this or that they wouldn't be here, right? But that sense of it never feels like I'm adding enough value. I always feel like the power balances in favor of the other party. I always feel like I have to prove myself. So would you say more about why that's not true?
Jamie Lee
Yes, I need to prove myself is one of the most insidious thoughts that we've, you know, I should add, in some cases, yes, you do need to demonstrate, like let's say, you started a new job and it's the first three months of course, that's the trial period, right. They want to see you perform, they want to see that you can fulfill the job description. Yes, you do need to prove yourself, but most of the time, we have a tendency to buy into that it a little bit too much. And, again, going back to the feminist context, it makes sense that we have that thought because of the injustice is because of the imbalance in our society, in our culture, in gender socialization, we've been taught and conditioned to second guess ourselves from a very young age. You know, there is a research that says that even from age six, as early as age six women girls, we start to think that boys are smarter, or that, that we're not as entitled to material things, compared to boys. So, first, we just want to acknowledge Yes, we have the start, not because it's true. But because we're swimming in the waters of patriarchal conditioning in your question, and want to make sure I'm addressing your question for you.
Kim Meninger
I think you have I was just really wanted you to re-emphasize that point about, we're already adding value that, you know, if you showed up, say you're adding value. And I think that we often think that when we take, we take for granted a lot of the value that we're adding, because we're not paying attention to the good stuff that we're doing, right, we're always paying attention to all the things we don't know, and all the mistakes we're making. And we never take the time to actually catalogue all of the good things, and then it just never feels like enough. It's like, Oh, there's more I shouldn't be doing.
Jamie Lee
Right. And especially as women, we've been taught to think that the real authority exists outside of us, like people outside of us get to decide what enough is. [Yeah.] Yeah. And we've also been socialized to feel that we have to take on more and more. I was just coaching a client today was an executive at this consulting company. And she is feeling like she has to carry the weight of, you know, our dirt poor, who's underperforming, she has to carry the weight of continuing to outperform, right? Overwork. This is a tendency a lot of us women tend to have. Yeah, so we want to just get curious, like, where is that belief coming from in the first place? Is that actually serve us? No, it doesn't.
Kim Meninger
It absolutely does not. Yeah.
Jamie Lee
Yeah. Yeah. And so then it takes a perspective shift to like is you're talking about, let's think about, like, what genuinely is enough? Like, what if I get to decide for myself what is enough? And if you work with other people, like, let's think about, you know, how are other people defining enough? Or how is my work enough already? And then start to collect evidence for that.
Kim Meninger
And one of the things I think about as you're talking, it's so important to not accept at face value, all of these thoughts that automatically come into our heads around, I'm not enough I'm not doing I have to prove myself, and to just slow down long enough to catch yourself doing it and reframe, and the women you're talking about. And I wonder if you have thoughts on? Are there simple ways of breaking the habitual patterns that we have of just like, letting those thoughts dominate how we see ourselves and, and sort of accepting them as facts like, because when you accept it as fact, and you don't question it, you don't necessarily see an opportunity to challenge it, right? So I wonder for people who just have these thoughts, and they're just part of their operating system? Are there things that you would suggest that we do to slow down long enough to just notice and insert a new way of thinking?
Jamie Lee
Yeah, I mean, the pattern interrupts the bilateral stimulation, the peripheral vision exercise, literally, you could take back and take a minute or two, right? If you're in the middle of your day, and you just feel like, Oh, I'm just getting so stressed out and wound up in a mind spiral. You could just pause and maybe take a deep breath in and shift your awareness to the periphery of vision. And then just like, ask yourself, Okay, how do I actually want to feel? And what is the actual fact of the situation? Like, can I take a moment to assess what's, what's true? And what could be opinion, what could be fiction, what could be just a story that I've been habituated to. And once you have identified the story, like I'm feeling very anxious, because I'm really like, I haven't done enough, right. Then, as you said, like, take a pause and get really curious women. And I like to just think about, okay, could the opposite of that be true? Especially if a thought is very stressful for me, I know that I don't know if you're familiar with Byron Katie. So Byron Katie has completely changed my life. And is the basis of you know, every thought we're going to anything, any real good coaching work as well. It's like, we identify the thought, and then we just get really curious with it. And then we turn it around with almost as if we're looking at a curious object that we picked up off the ground, we're like, we just turn it over and look at the other side of it, right? It's like, what if I have done enough? Right? And what is enough? Like, what if I get to decide? And if and if not, is, yeah, I addressed the three key priorities of the day. And I made arrangements for my family, and I booked a trip and I bought holiday gifts in less than a nice word. Like, I mean, this is most women who feel like they have impostor syndrome, they're already over-functioning over-performing most of the time.
Kim Meninger
Exactly, exactly. I just, I think that one of the most powerful things that you said was, and I'm paraphrasing here, but essentially, the, letting someone else decide what's enough. Because I think that is at the root of everything that is like, the anxiety comes from a place of feeling like someone on the outside is judging me, and I'm not measuring up, and we're giving our power to these other forces, and they might be specific people like our manager, or you know, someone in our workplace, or it could just be in general, that I need to prove to society at large that I am, that I am valuable in some way, and really just taking that power back is so it, that's a really, really important part of what we're talking about.
Jamie Lee
Yeah. And I'm sure you do this in your coaching, too. So we ask our clients, okay, what did you get to decide? How would you how would you define enough? And if, if they define it in a way that is completely unrealistic? And, you know, like, no, that would take three people that would take like, five people to work nonstop to get that done, then we just need to re revisit, like, make sure that your definition of enough is actually feasible. doable. [Yeah.] And once you've clarified it, that is really powerful, because now you are giving yourself authority over your day-to-day, your life, your career, how you feel in your career.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. And if, if we get to a place where you do that analysis, and the definition of enough is your manager's definition, and it's not reasonable, then that's data, right? That's important information on which you get to decide whether you want to stay and keep doing it that way, or you want to go someplace else.
Jamie Lee
Totally, totally. And I'm willing to bet money that the folks who are listening to this podcast, if you're listening to this podcast, and you have a desire for growth, development improvement, right? I mean, you are so not an impostor and impostor is out to con lie and cheat. They would not be working on themselves. Right?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's a very good point. I'm glad you said that. Because I think you're absolutely right. A true imposter wouldn't not be looking at themselves critically and try to improve. [Yeah.] Yeah. Oh, this is so powerful. Jamie, I absolutely love these tips that you've shared with us. Do you have any final thoughts?
Jamie Lee
Final thoughts? Um…
Kim Meninger
I know. You mean, we've just scratched the surface on all of your great work. But is there anything else that you think would be important to add to this conversation today?
Jamie Lee
First of all, just to recap, vote with your feet. Right? But also vote for yourself. Right. And that can look like defining for yourself, what is success? How do I want to define success? How do I want to define enough and then also, taking stock of your contributions? We're recording this mid-December, and so many people are doing like retrospectives where for the year And I think it's something that is really useful for, for anyone, especially anyone who's dealing with self-doubt, or any sort of impostor syndrome. It's like, no, let's look at the facts versus says, what actually got done? What are my accomplishments? Let's quantify. Let's also qualify what was really hard, what was really difficult that I overcame, so that you can cultivate that sense of self-validation from the inside out.
Kim Meninger
I think that is such a worthwhile exercise. And it's one that I encourage people to do throughout the year as well, because we really don't know how amazing we are until we stop. Take the time to document that. Jamie, where can people find you if they want more of you?
Jamie Lee
They can find me on my website, Jamieleecoach.com J-A-M-I-E-L-E-E-C-O-A-C-H dot com. I have a freebie that people can download on how to ask for a pay raise. I have a podcast called negotiate your career growth that people can check out. And of course, I'm on social media, LinkedIn, Instagram, and I have a blog that people can check out as well.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being here. All of those will be in the show notes as well for anybody who's interested and just thank you so much for taking the time to share this with us. It's really, really important and really powerful.
Jamie Lee
Thank you for having me.