In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about managing the pressure to be an A student at work. Many of us felt really comfortable in school because we were given very clear instructions. The workplace, unfortunately, does not come with clear instructions, yet we cling to old habits for the illusion of emotional safety these habits bring us. My guest this week, Lauree Ostrofsky, helps introverts, A students and overthinkers to more confidently take their next leap. Here Lauree and I explore how deciding for ourselves what’s good enough can help us manage perfectionism and begin to loosen the unrealistic standards we hold ourselves to so that we can do more of what is meaningful to us.
About My Guest
Lauree helps career-minded introverts, overthinkers and A students clarify their next leap and feel more confident putting themselves out there. She's the author of the happy how-to, "Simply Leap,” and the memoir, "I'm scared & doing it anyway," about her own leaps after a brain tumor diagnosis at 28. She's a coach, hugger and people connector, and believes wholeheartedly in Doing Business Differently. Get acquainted at SimplyLeap.com.
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Connect with Lauree:
Overthinker's Quiz: https://simplyleap.com/quiz
Instagram: https://instagram.com/lauree_ostrofsky
LinkedIn: https://linkedIn.com/in/laureeostrofsky
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Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Lauree, it is so wonderful to meet you. And I'm excited to have you here today, I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Oh, Kim, thanks so much for letting me be part of this conversation. I am an A student from way back and overthinker. And probably imposter syndrome works really well into that. There's lots of ways that you can, you can define it. But I'd normally say I'm an A student and an overthinker. And what that means to me is that third grade felt really comfortable. Third grade when the instructions were listed on construction paper on the wall, and I knew exactly what was required in order to get an A or a gold star. And I tend to work with them in my coaching practice as well, because adult life unfortunately, doesn't have instructions as clearly written out, as it did in third grade. And, and so I, knowing my own proclivities as an A student, and overthinker, I tend to work with mainly women, but all folks who are A students and overthinkers looking to leap in their career and, and do more meaningful work. Most of us can keep, especially if you're successful, you can keep doing what you're doing for a while, and keep getting accolades and keep getting promoted. But at some point, we reach in our careers like I did this, well, there's got to be more than this, there's got to be something more, more meaningful or aligned with who I am and what I do best. And that, to me is the challenge of a student's theirs, oh my gosh, there's potential disappointment or disappointing someone else, if we try something new. So that's the leaping that I tend to do with my clients.
Kim Meninger
I love that so much because that is a big way that I think about the challenge that so many of us faces that we're still behaving as good students, right? And we're still longing for the Why don't we add that clear structure and clear direction, but what you're making me think about too, is that, when you said, there's got to be something more, or you can do things with more meaning, being a student, means doing what other people tell us to do, right? Because when you're a student, you don't decide what you learn, you don't decide what you get tested on, you don't decide your assignments, you dutifully fulfill somebody else's responsibilities, right, like are what they're telling you to do. And so you, you give up a certain amount of control, and certainly creative freedom in doing that.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Right. Absolutely. And we give up that freedom, even as parents and co-workers and staff members and, and quote unquote, good friends, the ones that you can count on, we give up that control for safety, or for what seems like safety, okay, if, if I know that this person needs something, if I know that I needed, then I feel a little bit safer about what my day is gonna look like, if no one is telling me what to do, how possibly do I fill my, my schedule, I probably should go and find people to tell me what to do that you know. And I work with some folks who are have moved from corporate into entrepreneurship. And as a, as a business owner. And one of the things I've had to find is how do I create a schedule where, where freedom, which is a value of mine also goes with getting things done? How do those two things and, and how do I define my own gold stars? Beyond likes on social media? And, and other people praising me, which is, you know, kind of the a student way?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, you know, I think entrepreneurship is a great example of that. I also work with a number of, you know, rising leaders who are stepping into more strategic leadership positions. And it's really hard for them to make that transition because they often feel like they're not meeting their own expectations. And a lot of that, what I'll say to them is you need new metrics, right? Because the way you're defining your success and your performance in the past was all very, almost like execution oriented. It was about getting things done, what have I crossed off my list? And then was you rise to higher levels of leadership when you have more autonomy over your work? You can't measure yourself in terms of you know, you don't you don't get those check marks for the assignments that you write?
Lauree Ostrofsky
Right and your success at those levels is really based around being able to hand off your work and delegate and manage. And, and that's how micromanagement can sometimes happen. Or it's sometimes we hold on to whatever your career is, sometimes we hold on to more of the work because of those check marks off your to-do list is, is still our Defining Principles. How do we delegate in a way where we still feel successful when those projects happen? And we haven't been part of them?
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up micromanagement because I do think that's a big part of imposter syndrome and the conversation that we're having. And mean, we sort of all know how we feel when we're on the other end of a micromanager. But I really think it is incumbent upon all of us to develop the self-awareness to recognize where we may be playing that role on our teams. And I've talked to so many people who have very honestly revealed, you know, I have trouble giving up control. It's really hard for me, and it's not just about you anymore.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Yeah, yeah, well, control is such a big one. And I you know, in, in the A student work, the overthinking, it's so much of that I mentioned before about safety and safety isn't necessarily a word that that maybe comes to mind around this, like safety, I usually think of more physical safety, but really, it's an emotional safety piece, it's like, and control can give us emotion can give us the, the sense of emotional safety, when in the past in our childhoods, and we have received emotional safety, or we've looked externally for emotional safety, and haven't quite learned to give ourselves that emotional safety, like no matter what happens, I'm going to be okay. That's one of the things we're supposed to learn as kids. And if we didn't, for whatever reason, as adults, it's hard to believe ourselves, when we tell ourselves we're going to be okay, we're looking for some kind of external confirmation that we're going to be okay. And, and if we don't have it, and we're not giving it to ourselves, the control piece is, is a way that we can we can try to get it. If I control every part of this project, if I, if I know when this deadline is and I know I've checked off my to-do list or then everything's gonna be okay. Or if I you know, if my review my, my annual reviews are okay? And how we redefine our to-do lists are really about how we give ourselves emotional safety and other ways. Because our to-do lists are emotional safety, as much as everything you know, everything else it is.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, it's such a good way of framing it. And as you're talking about that, I think we, we get so comfortable with the gold stars with the grades with the you know, you just have this, you don't have to go very long when you're in school without knowing exactly where you stand upright, because you're gonna get a grade on the assignment you turned in within a couple of days, you're gonna get your report card, you kind of always know how things are going. But not everybody has managers that are skilled at giving feedback. You know, not everybody has even, like performance management systems that offer repeatable or productive feedback. And so what you're talking about is really breaking out of that need for external validation. Right? Like, how do I get to a point? Where if, if I don't have the gold stars, and I don't have to get the grades like, how do I trust myself? How do I trust that I am performing at a, you know, a level that meets my expectations?
Lauree Ostrofsky
Right? How am I satisfied with my own work before anyone else says otherwise? [Hmm.] That's a big one. That is big one. That is that is taking the time personally, and likely alone, and maybe with a journal, or maybe meditation or walk to really define what success is to us. And what's going to be good enough? As a student, we were talking before this podcast started about starting a podcast like just you know, doing it good enough. And like how do we cut ourselves off from falling into second-guessing and overthinking and perfection? And, and it's like, oh, it's actually us defining good enough. So, it's defining the boundaries of, like, what is success? And also what is good enough? Like, what's the range in there that I know I'm doing okay?
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes. And I love that whole concept of what is good enough because I think when we talk about perfectionism, right perfectionism, A is not realistic. A and B is exhausting. And there are so many ways in which we don't I don't want to use the word I don't I don't want to sound judgy. But I would put myself in this category of having wasted so much. There's so many things that, you know, we spend time on and I often joke, like you know, is the email you reread 10 times really that much better than it was when you've read it the third or fourth time. And it just feels like there are so many other ways that we could be channeling our skills and our energy. But we get trapped in these in these moments where we're in, you know, overthinking, like you had said at the beginning overthinking something that no one else is even going to notice. It doesn't it's not consequential to the outcome at all. And so, you know, it's really about being able to set those, you know, to calibrate a little bit better around, you know, there are times when my best effort is required. And there are other times when you know, what just showing up is good.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Yeah, yeah, I, I've talked to clients about 80%. Like, your 80% is most people's 110%. And as an as an A student, 80% is failure. For me, it's like, Why did I even try? Like, oh, my God, if I'm not getting an A, if not, I'm not getting a 95 or 100? Or bonus points? Why am I even doing this? And, and so that's also like, alright, the grading is helps, you know, I talk with my clients about like, what's 80%? Like, what could you define is 80% of this meeting of like it? How do you show up at 80%? At this meeting, or in this email that you're writing, or on this project? What is 80% look like? It might mean going home on time, or shutting off your computer at a certain time or not checking the third time after you've written something and just saying, you know, what, if there's a period missing, this would totally tripped me up. If there was a period missing, it's okay, they're still going to be able to read it. And I wanted to say also about the term perfectionism is that I have never called myself a perfectionist I, I shrink at that term. And I think that there's a bunch of us okay, but, but technically probably. I'm probably am a perfectionist as if I'm saying a student and overthinker I am, but because I never deemed anything I've done in my life is perfect. I'm like, Well, clearly, I'm not a perfectionist, because, because I have friends that are like, are that version of like, like, really do it? Well, and I'm like, I like my good enough is still in a but like, and that's kind of why I defined like I created this overthinking quiz. I guess I wanted to say it now because I feel like I think this perfectionism thing or how we define that goes into why develop this overthinking quiz because overthinkers are A students are like, what I would consider the Hermione Grangers from like Harry Potter, like, she's like, No joke. All I's dotted all T's crossed. And she's like, Yeah, hand up. And if you are not that person, you can go around defined like defining yourself as like, Well, I'm not really an A student, because I'm not her. I'm not as good as her. And what I realized is that my version of a student is, is working to the system to know exactly what's required to get an A in any situation like, like gaming the system, like figuring out hearing what, because I'm an oversensitive person. I'm, like, super sensitive to like what people are saying and feeling in a room, I have been able to be hyper-aware about what teachers need, or employees need, or my clients need to do just that. And that's a bit of a perfectionist, but it's a different version of that. That's definitely an overthinker because I'm hyper-vigilant and analyzing, but it's not the Hermione version. And so I wanted to kind of define like, you're still this, but it looks a little different to try to help ourselves like, define how this stuff how this overthinking perfectionism, A student impostor syndrome, how that shows up, and, and how do we work within it?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, oh, that is such a great distinction and you And just as you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, how much of the way that you're approaching it. And I, it resonates so much with me as somebody who's always been like a room reader, right? Like, I'm always aware of everybody's facial expression, and everybody's emotions at any given time. It's like, how much you're oriented towards pleasing other people, right? And how much of it is about what other people want, as opposed to what you want. And so I wonder if you'd be willing to share a little bit of your personal story of how you got here. Like, this has been your own personal journey. And now you've obviously made this decision and to help other people on it. So what, what were some of the moments that got you here?
Lauree Ostrofsky
Yeah, um, well, so I, you know, I was an A student from way back. So. So what I like to talk about are, you know, there are a couple of defining moments for me, one was at 28, when I was on the track in the corporate world, had my 401 K, I received, my mom liked my boyfriend was working in Manhattan, and I had my cute business suits. And I thought I was doing everything that you were supposed to, I was eating my vegetables. And, and I had this, I had this feeling, but this wasn't the job I was supposed to be doing. I wasn't fulfilled there. But I was good at it, I got good reviews. And, and then I had an ear infection that wouldn't go away. And so I dutifully went to the doctor, because that's what you got all my tests. And I was ready because I'd never had a negative experience in a doctor's office because I, you know, brush my teeth regularly and floss. And, and there, I sat in the doctor's office, and the doctor came in and said, you have a brain tumor. And I spent, actually a month, just having the biggest pity party in the world of I did everything, right. I did all the things, I checked everything off the list, I did everything I thought I could control to make my life, okay. And the path I thought I was on, took a turn. And I think so many of us, if we've lived long enough, we've had moments of in some way of when we think we have control over everything. And we think we have to find the path for ourselves. And something comes in to shift to shift us. And it's what do we do, when that shift happens. And we're that barrier comes up, but we don't get the promotion we want or, or the person we love doesn't love us back. And, and so in that moment, and in the proceeding, or in the, the, the next while when I was in hospitals, and I had ended up having three operations to remove this brain tumor. And luckily, I'm, I'm great now, which is awesome, but it was okay, now. But I, I started to finally understand what we have control over and what we think we have control over. And I think, folks, I mean, everybody who, who's gone through the pandemic has now learned this as well, which is we went about our lives thinking we had control over a lot of things. And then the pandemic happened. And we're like, oh, our lives got a lot smaller. What, what is important, and what we had control over, just shrunk noticeably. And that's really what I learned. So what I learned is what we have control over is what we think about something, how we feel about it, how we talk about it, the words that we use are really, really powerful, the people we surround ourselves with, and ultimately the choices we make out of the situation. Because there are things that happen, especially in adulthood that happen beyond our control, but these are the things that we really have control over. We think it's the email if we get the message writer if we get the design right or you know that things will be okay, but it's really like how are we talking to ourselves as we're working on this project? How are we feeling about our contribution in our personal professional lives like that's what's matters, and it kind of goes back to creating our own sense of success and good enough. So, so having that realization in my life It really propelled me towards, well, the things I thought were scary, like disappointing people. And, you know, my parents will be so bummed if I leave this 401k. And I go and, you know, start my own business or something, or spend my savings to travel didn't seem as scary because I had experienced something really scary. And that propelled me as an introvert and a shy person into becoming a speaker. And I had never done, you know, I'd never thought to speak in front of people before. And when I was thinking about kind of this podcast and having conversation with you, I was thinking about my first speech. And my first speech was, I realized that having had this brain tumor and recognizing what life is really about, and what my career really could be, which is helping people recognize what they do have control over. As opposed to all the things we desperately try to hold on to. That, I, if I spoke in front of people, I could reach more people at once. Like, there is a real opportunity there. And so I was like, Okay, I guess, oh, I guess, I guess I'll speak I'll guess I'll do speech. And so I submitted to this contest in Washington, DC, where I was living at the time, and one and was able to give a five-minute talk. And I was so nervous. So the so the thing I want to say I was so nervous that day, that for four hours before I showed up, I practiced my five-minute speech for four hours, I practice the speech in the heels, I was going to wear that night because I was like, Okay, I was in my pajamas, and my, my apartment in my heels like, okay, all right, I'm practicing it. And I was practicing all the pauses, and thinking, oh, people might laugh at that part. So I should pause, I should, I should pause here for a fact, I like had everything practice because I knew, and I'm sure some of your listeners know as well. I'm gonna freak out, I am totally going to freak out when I look at people, and I realize they're looking at me. So I'm gonna have to know this cold in order to like, no matter what I'm still talking while I'm freaking out. And basically, that's what happened because I showed up. And there were 450 people there. And I was like, okay, not prepared. And so the other thing that I did is that I walked into the restroom, because I really thought it was gonna throw up, but I'm, I'm hiding in the stall pacing in the stall, and I figure, okay, either I'm going to throw up and get in the right place for it, or I'm going to practice my speech and not looking at anybody until I have to look at them. And that is now my go-to strategy for handling scary things, which is go hide in the bathroom, and into practice as long as I need to, in order to know that I'm going to be okay, that I'm going to allow my feelings to be whatever they are, I'm not going to judge myself for freaking out in front of people. And, but I'm going to be prepared enough. So that way, I feel safe. I feel supported by the prep that I've done. I don't have to prepare for four hours now. But it's still I recognize that I'm the emotions that I'm going to have. And I support myself around those. And so I guess the last thing I'm like, going on and on. But the last thing I wanted to say is the, the other moment that helped me recognize the path I'm on. And is, is when I got out of the bathroom, and I got on stage. So there was a moment when I was speaking and I didn't know that this was going to be the most powerful piece of my speech. But I said to the crowd, I'm on stage tonight because I'm scared and doing it anyway. And everyone roared back like, like, clapped and people came up to me the rest of the night and they said I'm scared and doing it anyway too. I'm scared and doing in any way too. And I've realized that like there's something really powerful when we own our own vulnerabilities. We leave space for others to own theirs too. And I think that's really what the, the idea to me the sense of your podcast and what you're talking about impostor syndrome, like we feel better when we have space, safe spaces and other people who are willing to admit Yeah, I feel it too. And, and I'm scared and doing it anyway has now become a mantra for me, it's the title of my first book, it's very much what I talk to my clients about is how we treat ourselves in the scary moments, the doing it anyway, doesn't have to be a mean teacher judging us that we better get it right or else we're going to fail. It can be a really kind person that says, if you want to hide in the bathroom, until you go on stage because that makes you feel a little safer, do it. Do it, you need it, I support you, you're going to be great.
Kim Meninger
I love that so much Lauree. So much so much gold in what you just said in so many ways. And I think that is how I tried to think about it as well, because so many of the people that the reason I started the podcast in the first place was because so many people were coming to me and saying, Am I the only one who feels this way? Am I the only one who says stuff like this to you? And I thought, gosh, if only you knew right there, it is a universally, you know, human experience, that we all get scared in these kinds of moments. It's part of our DNA to be afraid of these types of things. But we hide it so well, that everyone thinks they're the only ones right? Like we carry around these, you know, or we wear these brave masks. And so we look around and think well, everyone else is so confident everyone else has figured it out, and must be me. And so being willing to say, I'm scared, and I'm doing it anyway, it gives everyone else permission to own their own experience and feel like Oh, thank God, I'm not the only one, right? And that is just such a powerful part of life is to recognize that we are all in this together. And every time somebody does something that seems impressive, behind the scenes, they're probably in the area.
Lauree Ostrofsky
I'll meet you in the bathroom, and not talk to you in the stall next to you.
Kim Meninger
And then only we knew that right now, that's, that's the message I want everyone to take away is that life is hard. It's scary. Like anytime we step outside of our comfort zones, it's terrifying. But when you think about the story you told us of being diagnosed with a brain tumor, which has got to be like, incredibly terrifying. It really does put things into perspective of like, what's more important here. And I wish you didn't have to go through that to get to that point, I wish there was a shortcut for all of us to be able to say like, actually, the things that seem really important right now, are not that important. And that's something I try to tell my kids who are nine and almost 14 right now is like, hey, look, every part of being a kid feels super important and overwhelming. But when you look back on this time, you're going to laugh or it's gonna just be like one small thing and this huge constellation of experiences. And so, you know, we get hung up in the moment. But if we could zoom out, right, I think that is a really important lesson for all of us is to think like, how important is this right now and, and for you like in your example, I think about how he, quote-unquote easy right, it would have been to just not apply in the first place, bail out in the middle, not actually go on stage. Like there's so many off-ramps along the way that you didn't take and like, even though it was scary, you probably at the end of it were exhilarated and like, I'm so proud of myself for doing this. Whereas if you had taken an off-ramp, you would have lived with that for the rest of your life. Right?
Lauree Ostrofsky
Yeah. Well, I wouldn't have known what could be possible. I would say, I don't know if I would regret it, not doing it. Because I don't think I would have known what I mean. That was the title of my book. You know, after you know, five years later, I wrote the book, you know, it was like because of that. I didn't think I knew. I didn't know that. That was possible for me. I didn't know that. I could. I could be brave in that way. And I there are still lots of things that I'm not willing to do. Like people are like, Oh, I'm scared. You're gonna anyway. Have you jumped out of an airplane? No, no, I'm never jumping. I'm still afraid of heights. And I'm okay holding on to that fear. But I'm, I'm okay with that one. But I but I really do. I think there's something it wasn't it Brene Brown that talks about hope is when we face tough things, and someone doesn't solve it for us, they believe in us so that we can figure it out for ourselves. Like that's how kids learn hope. And think about that for myself because most of us adults still need to learn about hope as well for ourselves, you know very much the what's good enough. It's like how do we learn hope? How do we know that we're okay, no matter what and some I faced something hard. And I helped myself through it. Like the, the speech itself was something that I can actually learn for learn from and apply later in my, in my work life again, like, oh, I faced that. And I figured out what works for me. And, and I got an A because people said nice things out to her. So that feels good to know, I'm not gonna lie, that felt good. But, but yeah, I think I think that one really helped me in a way that propelled me with how I help my clients.
Kim Meninger
And you know, when I think about the, a lot of the things that we've been talking about throughout this conversation, I find it helpful to just check in with myself periodically and say, What's my motivation for doing this right now? What's my motivation for, you know, making this decision or not making this decision? Or in the, I feel like that's a really good kind of gut check because there are going to be times when fear is the overriding force, right? Like, maybe I will, like you never jump out of a plane. And that is totally fine with me, right? Like, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that, no, that's too scary. And I'm not crossing that line. But there are going to be other times when I'm going to say to myself, like, no, that's not enough of a reason not to do this, right? And if we're not sort of consciously tuning into what's driving our behavior, we can't make intentional choices about when and it's something as simple as I think about like in a meeting, do I ask this question? Or do I sit here silently? And if you ask yourself, like, what would be my motivation for not asking the question? Is fear enough for you? Is that is not enough of a reason right now? And in some cases, it will be because maybe you don't have enough psychological safety or in other cases, maybe you just say like, you know what, actually know it right now? I can, I sense the fear. But I'm gonna ask the question anyway.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Yeah, that's awesome. And I like prep as much as possible from my anxious self. And so I have made lists before every possible meeting, including every doctor's meeting of What are potential questions I might ask in this situation, because when I'm in a meeting, any kind, like I said, including a doctor, and someone goes, Do you have any questions? I'm like, my brain just shuts off. It's like, you're looking at me, you're asking me? I don't know. But if I've written it down beforehand, at least I have that. Even if it's like, some, some bullet points of like, what are the things that are important to me about this, this meeting or event that I'm attending? Okay, has that been answered today? No. Okay, I can raise my hand about that. Because I already defined in advance I already agreed with myself going in, because, because I don't know, always, in the moment. Sometimes fear takes over in the moment, and I can't decide as much but like, if I prepped myself in advance, with like, these are the things that if I don't come out of this meeting with this answer, this meeting hasn't been worthwhile to me, right, I'm going to have to follow up. And that's going to annoy me. And that actually is high on my list of not doing, you know, don't enter yourself by having to do this meeting a second time. And so, so that the, the prep is also helpful in me being braver in each moment. And knowing that the prep helps me feel brave. helps me to do it more often. Yeah. Because sometimes I'll go and be like, hey, yeah, I'll be fine. Like, I don't have time to, you know, make myself known or whatever. And then I find myself in situations and I'm like, oh, no, gosh, I wish I thought about this in advance, because like, I don't have the words with me right now to be able to articulate it, and then I get really nervous. But anyway, so if prep helps more people, I would highly recommend it. Something we used to do so. So when I worked in corporate, I was working in public relations and communications. And one of the things that we used to say is that, when preparing for an interview, even with like the New York Times, or something you can prepare, you can guess, like 85% of the questions that you're going to get an interview, you can guess that meant, like, based on who they are or what you're talking about, or whatever, like you can plan for 80 to 85% of what's going to happen. Yeah, there's going to be surprises. But if you get prepared that much. If you've kind of thought that much about it. You're, you're good because then you're on stable ground going in.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love that. I think that's such a great point. And I love the idea of preparation too because I often think you know when you're in, in the spotlight, so to speak, right? Whether that's in a meeting or on a stage, you can't be trusted to strategize your fight or flight response kicks in. And you cannot think clearly. So, to have that neutral moment, when you're, you're prepping, and you know that you're a good student and you trust it, you can trust that you did the appropriate level of preparation to get into this meeting. Rely on that. Right. I think that's such a great way to think about it.
Lauree Ostrofsky
You know, the other thing I want to add to the prep is having, and this is Oh, my gosh, a coach or a therapist told me this years ago, have like a one-liner, or like a phrase that you say, to give yourself time, so it might be Oh, give me a minute on that. Question. Let me think about that, you know, or something, if prep that too. And always use the same one. So again, it's this, it's already developed in your brain, you don't have to come up with that little phrase or sentence you'd like, in the moment you have it. And so you always know no matter what, you can buy yourself time. Yes. Because yeah, you've done some prep. But how do you buy yourself time in the moment? You got to figure that out before you get in the moment? Because otherwise you're just gonna be freaking out? [Yeah.] And it's okay. It's totally okay. You're pretty good. Yeah, that's what you're helping yourself in advance with like, good question. No, yeah.
Kim Meninger
I would add to that, I always say, Keep a drink with you, at all times, bring a drink with you to every meeting, not alcoholic sometimes.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Sipping your martini, you don't think of answers right away.
Kim Meninger
Bring water with you to every meeting because just like having that question or that response, you also have a pause button that you know, just taking a sip buys you time to collect your thoughts and get yourself your nervous system under control. Right? Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Laurie, this has been such a fantastic conversation. I would love to continue it all day. But I would love to ask you too where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work?
Lauree Ostrofsky
Yeah, absolutely. I have really enjoyed this to Kim. I love how introverts tend to just jump right into conversations immediately. And like no small talk, we're not going to chat. We're gonna like go right in. And I really respect that. I, my website is Simply Leap, which is the name of my business because I help folks leap. And my, my books are there on my website. And my overthinking quiz is also available there to find out what type of overthinker you are, and how to turn it into a strength as opposed to a liability. And I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Kim Meninger
Well, all of those links will be in the show notes for anybody who is interested and thank you again, Lauree, for having this conversation with me.
Lauree Ostrofsky
Oh, thanks, Kim.