In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the monsters under our bed. We all have them, but they look different for each of us based on our own experiences and beliefs. My guest this week is Sheila Buswell, CEO of Buswell Biomedical and author of the book, “Is This Seat for Me?” Here we discuss her journey with impostor syndrome, which stems not from her work experience but from her identity as a woman, having been told throughout her life that she’s “too girly,” or not “girly enough.” Sheila and I talk about why we experience impostor syndrome in some situations and not others. We also talk about the power of authenticity and vulnerability to slowly change systems around us.
About My Guest
Sheila Buswell is the CEO/ Co-Founder of Buswell Biomedical. She developed the concept for the Upward Mobility in 2018. In 1997, she joined the Army, injuring her foot in Bosnia in 1998. After receiving a medical discharge in 2001, Sheila moved to Missouri to continue her education and help her sister with babysitting. She earned a BS in Mechanical Engineering in 2005 from Missouri University of Science and Technology (then UMR). Sheila holds an MS in Biomedical Engineering from Saint Louis University.
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Sheila. You and I have been chatting and I'm so excited to hit the record button so that we can share this with everyone else who's listening today. Before we get back to our conversation, I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Sheila Buswell
I am Sheila Buswell, I started a company in 2019. Before that I, I had a scholarship that I lost in, I graduated third in the class in 1995. But I lost a scholarship and I joined the military and I was injured in Bosnia in 1998, which is doesn't feel like it was 25 years ago. But it was, and I got a medical discharge in 2001, I continued my education. And I got an MS in engineering in 2018, my mom fell and broke her hip, in Arizona. And I had, I was frustrated because I'm not a caregiver. But in those 20 years, like literally, between my injury in Bosnia and my mom falling and breaking our hip, nothing had changed and rehabilitation hospitals. So I applied my master's in engineering and worked for a lot of great companies to invent a device to solve the problems like activities of daily living, like you had to wait for a healthcare worker to accompany you to the bathroom. And I invented a device. And first I was like, Well, surely this device, surely somebody else is working on this? And then it was like, no, no one else is working on it. Well, it you know, I'll just go work for them. And then it evolved to nope, nobody else is working on it. So I got a patent and started a business because I was like, well, if not you then who? And I started a business that really focused on computer engineering, which my master's I have an undergraduate in mechanical engineering, and a master's in biomedical engineering, but not computer engineering. So it was a lot of business and a lot of computer engineering, which I didn't have. And I was very frustrated. Because early on in my business, a lot of people were when I would ask questions and be like it's imposter syndrome, you have impostor syndrome. And I was like, No, I just don't understand business. And they don't understand computer engineering. And I want to ask questions to further my knowledge. And so I got angry, and I wrote a book. So I thought I didn't have impostor syndrome, which I think was what we were talking about before. But it turns out I do, which is not about Business and Computer Engineering. And it's a common problem that I think we were also talking about before. But I think normalizing the conversation and just having a practical way to attack it made a huge difference. Like everybody has, we made this analogy before, monsters under their bed, but that monster might not look the same for everybody. But acknowledging that you have a monster under your bed and became a two-prong thing like, Okay, I have this business. But I want to acknowledge that to further my business, I have this monster under my bed and to make it better for everybody going forward.
Kim Meninger
Let's so I have a couple of different roads, I want to go down with what you just shared. But I want to start with the, the assumption people made that what you had was impostor syndrome when actually you were feeling like you didn't have enough information. Because this is a common question that I get is, How do I know the difference between when I'm struggling with impostor syndrome, and when I truly am not in the right role, or I don't have enough information. So how did you know? How were you able to make that distinction in your own mind when people were sort of accusing you of having impostor syndrome? How, how did you process that and say, No, actually, this is something else.
Sheila Buswell
So at the time when that was first, I don't know, laid at my feet, I guess the way that I had impostor syndrome, I didn't think I had it. But in self-reflection, I don't ask questions when I'm in. Impostor syndrome, to me is like insecurity turned up to 11. So for instance, I have an issue with makeup, right? So I got a makeup brush. I didn't know what it was for or an eyelash curler. And I was like, I don't know what those are for. So I but I didn't ask any questions about it. I just let it go. You know, like is let the assumption go that like, whatever, like I discounted the importance of it. But if I need it with curiosity, it's like, I don't feel as though I have I don't know if I'm making sense of curiosity, like okay, computer engineering, how do they solve this problem? It was not, whereas when I, I'm 46. So I'm sorry. tend to lose color in a lot of places where traditionally I had color, I didn't know how to solve problems like, my eyebrows are disappearing. I'm you know what, like those kinds of things. I didn't ask questions about it, I just was like, the assumption was that I would be able to address those problems. And I just assumed, or I would discount them as being unimportant, but they bothered me. Whereas I wouldn't hesitate to ask a question about how do they decide to mechanically wheat crops? Like, how do they use artificial intelligence to aid in that capacity? And I went down that road with curiosity. Whereas I was like, Well, I guess my eyebrows are disappearing, whatever.
Kim Meninger
But curiosity is, it's interesting that you say that because I actually think that's a very good strategy for managing impostor syndrome is to reframe how you think about something away from insecurity, and I don't know enough to one of, I'm interested in learning more, right, and it becomes more of an act of empowerment than it does an act of weakness. Because if we have, you know, if we have to admit, I don't know how, what you just said, right, that is done, then I'm somehow less than in the eyes of my colleagues. Whereas if instead I just sort of own it and say, Hey, by the way, how does this work? Then I get the benefit of that information. I continue to build my competence, I continue to build, you know, my experience in different areas, which grows my confidence at the same time. So I'm curious why you think that was seen as imposter syndrome? Why did people lay that at your feet?
Sheila Buswell
I don't, I honestly don't know. I think projection is a lot of it. Like, I mean, it was a very group that was do this. But I think a lot of people who would see impostor syndrome in themselves would project it on to other people. And I'm like, I do have impostor syndrome, just not about that. So I think that and I think people judge books by their covers, so people, I don't historically look like somebody who would start a business do engineering, you know, any of the things I am, I don't look like so I think that has made people say, Oh, if I question something, it depends on the person. But I think projection is a large part of it.
Kim Meninger
I think that's a very good point. And I'm curious to before we go down the road of where you do see impostor syndrome in yourself because I really want to hear more about that, too, is What's the book about? And what made you decide to write it? You said, You got angry? What, tell us a little bit about what that looks like?
Sheila Buswell
So the book, the first, a lot of the book is about just me telling my story about how like, there's a lot of ways professionally, I don't experience imposter syndrome, right? Like I because of my path, right? I went from the military, back to school, and I was a generator mechanic in the military. So when I went back to school, I could apply. I'm an engineer, mechanical engineer. So like, I knew the concepts of heat transfer and could apply them in the real world. So and I came from a place of understanding, and I got good test scores. So when I graduated, I didn't have the traditional like, I my feet were firmly planted in, I was a mechanic in the military, I got great grades, I got test scores, whatever, like, throw the things at me. So when I was told, again, I'm older, so I was told, don't be so girly, or you won't be taken seriously as an engineer. Like, I was a mechanic in the military. I'm a veteran, I am not going to you know, this is ridiculous. So I was able to stand where other people would have definitely played a role that perhaps would have made them feel less genuine. Like if you dress up like you're less, you know, if you don't show up to work is your genuine self. It would make sense that if you become in a position of authority, you would question Do I belong here? Because you have never been genuine. I, I always have been not. It's not like I sprang out of the ground, learn knowing how to fix generators, but I was like, I have to fix generators or get good at cleaning toilets, because in the military, it's like, you get put on detail if you're not useful. And I do not like I'm still not a domestic goddess. So being cleaning toilets is not going to be my forte so I got good at fix. seemed generators. And then that led to one thing after another. And so in my book I came from, that was my story. I didn't have it. I didn't have impostor syndrome or self-doubt in that way. I had it in another way. Because I've worked in a place where I was told, don't be so girly. But then I never felt girly enough around girls. Does that? I don't know if that, huh? I don't even like to say girls because they were grown-ass women like, but like I never anyway, but then like, we talked, I talked before about the monsters under the bed. And they manifest in different ways. So I talked to other people in different ways. And that self-doubt or impostor syndrome would creep in. So I, it was more meaningful. My business accountability partner, like it's tells a different story in different lives, like that monster under the bed looks like a different monster. It's still a monster under the bed that creeps into your hands, whispers in your ear. So there's a story, my friend Peter, I met him at yoga, but he was like a male nurse. And he has imposter syndrome that meant manifests differently. Because people would assume other things about him. He's a physician, he's, you know, anyway, like, all the things people assume about a female doctor, a male nurse, the flip side, they also assume and those assumptions can lead to a myriad of monsters in your head, that make you do different things. And Mmm-hmm. There's eight different contributors and eight different stories. And there's more than that. But I think that that's an opportunity to, to see in different lives, how it manifests differently. And then I am a big believer in offering solutions. I mean, I'm an engineer. So I offer just basic solutions, like how day to day, you can get through those feelings, when they creep up how to fight that monster under the bed, you know, and culturally small changes that really make a big difference. And how that can make a big, small changes every day. Like I always, James Clear, has that book Atomic Habits. And I do think it makes a big difference to make a small change every day.
Kim Meninger
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so what's interesting about what you're saying, I just want to go back to the expression when you used to have your feet firmly planted. Because I think that a lot of the experience of imposter syndrome comes from not having a good sense of what you do well, and really being focused on what you don't know. And what you're saying is, I knew I was a successful mechanic in the military, I know what I'm doing when it comes to that. So the insecurity there is not you, I'm not going to assume that you are 100%, confident 100% of the time, but there are the cracks in the foundation that a lot of people feel in workplace settings because they're either not acknowledging their strengths in a particular area, or they're so focused on what somebody else knows that they don't know. So what's interesting about what you're talking about is the sort of girly side of things. And I wonder, has that been a point of insecurity for you in the past? Like why do you think that particular aspect of yourself is more vulnerable to the experience of imposter syndrome then your competence in your career?
Sheila Buswell
I think it's not as defined like I have worked in a field where it was like I felt very firmly plant like you said, it was a I mean, I was it's not again, I talked about not springing out of the ground knowing how to fix generators right like I first fixed generators by going up, I want to preface this by saying in the military you don't component replace as you get better you the smaller the component is you replace, but it's not like all of a sudden you replace a main gen you get a brand new main, main generator like it goes to a different level of maintenance and they fine-tune the component or the engine. But like if it started if the engine started but it wasn't putting out power I would replace the entire main Jen initially and then I got as I got better as my skills improved. I would like fine art final, I would fine-tune what I replace, to get down to diode replacement for an engine replacement a lot of times it was like the fuel injectors. But as I got better at that, and then I moved up, I could totally think, Oh, I knew how to fix a different five kW, I can fix a 10 kW, I could fix a 10 kW, I can fix a 50 Doesn't matter, I'm speaking generator terminology. But then, like I would use that taught like building on things to apply to engineering. But there wasn't that same analogous thing to beauty. Or like, I knew how to do mascara all of a sudden, like I don't see I'm, this is where my ignorance is going to show. But like, I think other people have that experience where they're in LM, like, I'm going to totally, again, show my butt like people, you've, I have seen pictures of like little kids who've learned how to put on makeup. And they put on too much and they fine-tune it. And they, you know, they figure out their colors. And I was never interested in that. Like, and I think I didn't build the same as much as I was able to build expertise and build on things from technical point of view, I wasn't able to build on. Like, I have no idea about I shot like I get intimidated. I walk completely by the beauty counter, like at the mall, like, I don't like to go up and like show my ignorance. And I think you have to be vulnerable, you have to be like, I don't know what I'm talking about. And let that guard down to like, be able to be take that first step.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And it has to matter to you. Right? If you don't care, you're not going to have an insecurity about it. So where does this come from? Why do you think it's so important to you? Like, why? Did you want to be better at it? Or like, what did you get pressure and just in different aspects of your life? Like, where does the pressure come from?
Sheila Buswell
When so, like, God, I didn't have like, Oh, I'm gonna get an engineering degree. But it was like society was going to pay me a certain amount of the five-year degree to, to get an engineering degree. It wasn't until my hairline gray and I my eyebrows were disappearing, that I was like, Oh, that was important to learn and perfect. But it's still kind of irritates me. And I'm judgy on a different level. To like, and it's kind of not from a place of mean-spiritedness is more from jealousy. Like when men dye their hair, I'm like, why are you dyeing your hair? Because you could get away with not dyeing your hair. It just seems like more of a problem. Why would you, but I'm jealous. You know what I mean? I feel like I have to, like, I feel like society. I, I, I wish it wasn't like this but I do think that there is a perception that women just get old and then get distinguished. And that pressure has revealed itself to me. Now, there are people who feel that much younger. But it wasn't until, I mean, there's people who feel that at 18. Different obviously not old, but there's people who feel it and I didn't. I mean.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And well, what you're describing too, is the insecurity that comes from the societal expectations or the assumptions that people make about you. Right? And that goes back to what you were talking about with your friend who's the male nurse is he may be perfectly comfortable being a nurse and doing the work of nursing. But because it has traditionally been seen as a woman's job, right? Now he has to deal with the insecurity that comes from people making assumptions about what role he plays. And so it's not the insecurity doesn't come from inside. It comes from the outside. And I think that's interesting.
Sheila Buswell
I do think. I do think that's interesting, and it's a very you can voluntarily give up some of your power by saying okay, letting some of the outside pressures in, like, I heard this analogy, and I'm sure I'm sure I'm gonna mess up this quote, but boats don't sneak because they're in water. It's because they let the water inside. Oh, I like that. And it's like, I remember when my dad didn't like my sister's boyfriend he would 100% say the name wrong. At one of my engineering jobs, I let them call me Rebecca, for years, I just volunteered, Lee gave up my power. And I think names have power, you know, regardless of how difficult your name is to say, and she was not a difficult name to say, make them call your, your name and make them say it, right? Because it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I am not going. And people do that all the time on resumes. They say, all of a sudden, their names become an initial and it's like, and people straighten their hair instead of having, like they take away their inauthentic selves. And then, [Hmm] how do you not feel like an imposter if you have spent your entire career playing a part? To get a role?
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's an interesting way you sort of think about imposter in the, in its traditional sense, right? Of Yeah, I'm sort of faking who I am. Because I have given my power to what society expects or demands of me, as opposed to holding true to who I am.
Sheila Buswell
I think one of your previous guests was Latina. And she talked about how like, she wouldn't, she would get home. And like, that's, that's when she would exhale and be like, now I can be me. And that does wear on you. I did that too. I'm not. I mean, I am not a finished product by any means. Like, it's just hard, the genuine to let everybody in, is vulnerable. Especially traditionally, the people who've held the roles. And it's one of the stories. Kate is such a powerhouse. But she's talks about, you know, she's working with a bunch of men, and she's trying to get breast milk through TSA, and like how that made her feel. And then, like, it's not that any of the guys were ill-intentioned. It's just not something they could identify with. And it's just like, how do you be your authentic self in that situation? There's no way you have to own it. And then, I mean, I'm an engineer, I've never had a woman boss. So that situation of like, you've never had a superior have that problem. I don't know how my name is hard. I mean, I don't, I don't know how to articulate that. But I think knowing that it's possible. Not easy, but possible is huge. And I think that's where representation matters, like seeing people in that roles, like somebody who has had a Latina name, somebody who acts genuine in a position of authority, who is their genuine self, matters on so many levels because a you see, the person is capable in that role. And the people coming up, see that they don't have to pretend. So, anyway.
Kim Meninger
Well, I'm curious, because you said, you've never had a woman boss before, and you work in a very male-dominated space. Does vulnerability feel like an option to you?
Sheila Buswell
I don't know that I'm a super vulnerable person. Well, I mean, I'm vulnerable, but I don't manifest it in the same way. I don't know if that makes sense. Like, I don't cry at work, but I don't cry. I mean, that's not how I am. I do cry, but I don't express emotion. That way. Like, I am more apt to cry because I'm frustrated. That makes sense. But like, I'm moments of sadness, are more apt to me to be clammed up. And I don't, it makes me sad when I think of various things. But I don't manifest this motion the same way that's traditionally thought of. And I think neural diversity is a huge thing. Like, okay, that needs to be accepted. as well. If you're always the expectation there is always to express. I don't hug I don't like law. So if always the expectation is to manifest, you're going to want to work in a group you're going to want to show up at work where maybe, you know, people work better alone in. In spaces that make them comfortable, and they're better at expressing emotions, I don't know, in different ways. It's the expectation is hard to let go of, just like women veterans have been a thing like Margaret Hoolahan from Mash. That was what that show was on in the 80s. But people totally manifest this idea. And there's a small percent but it's a real percentage. And it doesn't I mean, the expectation that all veterans look like Captain America is ridiculous when you know of… like I was in the military for close to four years, I never saw Captain America.
Kim Meninger
Well, you're making me think about vulnerability, maybe it's not vulnerability that I'm thinking about. But I think there's value to when it makes sense to do so if you have the right level of trust, and so psychological safety, to be able to just talk openly with people about some of these things because you made the point earlier, when you said about the woman who was trying to get breast milk through TSA, that her male colleagues just did not have that perspective, that's just not their life experience. But now that they've been exposed to it, they likely have a new appreciation for the challenge that's involved. And I wonder if, if just having a conversation with people, even around the neurodiversity piece that says, hey, you know, what, I do my best work when I can sit quietly and think as opposed to being in meetings. Can we talk about how to incorporate more of that, that people who have not had that preference, or have never thought of it as an option might suddenly open their eyes and say, Oh, actually, there's, there's legitimacy to that, let's think about it, but never would have come up with it on their own. And so I wonder, you know, whether it's a form of vulnerability, a form of just more direct communication, for all of us to think about what is unique about us that may not be honored or appreciated today. But if we were to bring it up, might just create more awareness that people and new opportunities for us to do things in more authentic ways.
Sheila Buswell
I do think that's a powerful thing to be… to do things in more authentic ways, is really better for everybody. Right, like, faking the funk. And people say, I think, Betsy Mercado, and her story talks about being told to fake it till you make it. I hate that. [Yeah.] And I, I think being authentic and bringing that but feeling comfortable to do that. You, I don't think it's gonna be a realistic thing in the future. To be oh, you know. Photoshop is great. But we know that people don't look like they do in Photoshop. Like, and we're not going to work with those people. We don't want to work with those people we don't like… we like realness, genuine. And I don't think I think having those conversations and normalizing, it's like impostor syndrome being feeling comfortable about what the monster under your bed looks like that you have one. And this is what he looks like, calling it like, I've heard someone say that. Yeah, you can't fight. If your house is haunted, you can't fight it. Right, like, but you can acknowledge that it exists and control it. And it gives you an empowering way to deal with it. And okay, maybe you can't. But you can figure out a way around it. And I think that's, I mean, we're all works in progress. As we get older, we get better at dealing with stuff. But I am not going to go by Rachel again. But I understand when people do, because it just makes life easier.
Kim Meninger
So yeah, and you're making anything to like, I mean, so much of the narrative that we've bought into was written by a very, like narrow demographic, right? And so we have all sort of collectively do decided unconsciously, that there is a certain way of leading that is the right way and that everybody else's way of doing it is wrong. And so when we show up differently than our expectations, there's that sense of, I'm not good enough, I'm a fraud. I don't belong here. When in actuality, our opportunity is to question the narrative and say who says, right? Who says that this isn't that my authentic style is not just as effective, if not more effective than the style that we have historically said is the right one for leadership?
Sheila Buswell
But it gets weird how antiquated and that stuff sneaks in. Like the temperature in most office buildings I think was set and people cold, but women's body temperature is like point four to 6.6 degrees higher. So they're often cold in office buildings, and they think little things like that, like in how the most People are like, that's, you know, like, I have always we've talked about me looking like I have a Tweety-Bird and a Sylvester like I, but I don't wear cardigans anymore because I've made the like, peep the assumption that that likeness, I don't have short hair, I look like, anyway, just feeds into something. But I think being aware of that and how you are like, Okay, if all the women seem to have heaters and wear coats, and in the middle in July, July, that needs to be addressed. And it needs to be okay, that narrow bandwidth made sense in 1965. But here it is 2023 and how you meet that, like, do you automatically say these women are weak? Or you know, or do you say, Okay, it's a problem. They have heaters at their desks, they're wearing coats in July, like,
Kim Meninger
Yeah, maybe the system needs, maybe we need to look at the thermostat and not the women.
Sheila Buswell
And not be like thinking, okay, and the women need to think, okay, maybe it's an antiquated system not and Mr. Burns is like, ha-ha-ha, finally, right. Like, there's a way to empower yourself and meet, meet people where they're coming, because my husband is a I mean, he's, he doesn't have an ill intention. But it's not something he's like, Oh, that makes sense. But it's not something he thought about before.
Kim Meninger
Exactly suitable. If he's comfortable, right? Why would he assume that other people aren't unless they say I'm uncomfortable? Can we look at the root cause of this? Right? Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really interesting piece of this, too, is, obviously systems take time to change. But if we assume that a good chunk of people aren't malicious in their intentions, but more so have blind spots, that it becomes an empowering opportunity to say, hey, can we think about this differently?
Sheila Buswell
And I think blind spots is a good way to put it can like, you don't, you don't know what you don't know. And to not, again, with the curiosity meet something with curiosity instead of like, again, I barely learned what an eyelash curler is like. And I need one apparently, but it's fine. Those things disappear with age. It's, you know, but meeting it with curiosity and asked being being in a safe enough place to ask questions is a good thing.
Kim Meninger
Oh, wow, this is such a powerful conversation. Sheila, thank you so much for having it with me. I know we could definitely keep going. But for the sake of time, how can people find you if they want to read your book or learn more about you?
Sheila Buswell
So, I, the book is just people find me by my name Sheila Buswell on LinkedIn. I also have, if you look at just but the book is, is the seat taken? Or is the seat for me, overcoming impostor syndrome in everyday life and business, but there's a, like, that's where how you start. It's a wormhole. There's many contributors to the book. Like, the book is available on ebook paperback and audiobook. I do not read books anymore. I listen. So I tried to limit my hypocrisy, and I made an audiobook. Oh, yeah.
Kim Meninger
That's great. Thank you so much, Sheila. I really appreciate it. And we'll put links in the show notes as well.
Sheila Buswell
Thank you, Kim. Thank you, and your work is important. Like I think everybody needs to I want to end on that. Like, I think it's important. We all know, we're not alone. Like 70% I think it's more than that. But I'm not an expert in that. But I do think knowing we're not alone. And you know, fighting that monster by acknowledging we all have won is a good way to do it.
Kim Meninger
Thank you.