In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about setting yourself up for success in your job search. Whether you’re actively in a job search or just starting to think about making a change, this episode is for you. My guest this week, Michelle Merritt, is the Chief Strategy Officer at D&S Executive Career Management. Here we explore how to maximize your resume, including how to use ChatGPT. We also discuss how to talk about negative job situations when you’re interviewing, how to have the dreaded salary conversation and how to navigate multiple job offers.
About My Guest
Drawing on her 20-year corporate career as a Fortune 500 recruiter and corporate culture executive, Michelle provides a wealth of experience for her clients. Today, she guides executive leaders through the end-to-end job search process, from resume writing to negotiating offers. As a sought-after speaker and trainer, Michelle is a trusted source for leading-edge trends affecting senior-level job seekers and board candidates. Recognized as a civic and local leader, she serves on several community and volunteer boards (ask her about her Guinness World Record). She is based in Greater Indianapolis.
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Connect with Michelle:
Website: www.dscareermanagement.com
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/michellemerritt
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Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Michelle, I'm so excited for our conversation today. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Michelle Merritt
Well, thank you, Kim, I am excited to be here. My name is Michelle Merritt. I am the Chief Strategy Officer for DNS executive career management. So what exactly does that mean? It means I set strategy both for our organization of 12 writers and exec executive, resume writers and executive coaches. But I also then work with our executive clients in their career search as well, I still do some client-facing work, not as much as I used to for sure. But my background to give you a little idea of how I got to this role, you don't set out that you know, six years old to say I want to be a chief strategy officer. So my background really is in recruiting and corporate culture. I started Mike, my career actually began as a lighting and electrical designer for the custom homebuilding industry, which led me to an opportunity to recruit in national home building, which I did for many years moving executives from one organization to another across the country for management recruiters here in Indianapolis, where I live. And I did that until 2008, when you may recall that no one needed a homebuilding recruiter in 2008. So fast forward a couple of years, people started reaching out to me saying, hey, while you're figuring things out, will you help me with my resume? Will you help me, guide me through this interview, things like that, I'll pay you. He just helped me through it, because they'd gotten to 2011-2012. And the economy was returning. And so people were starting to interview. And I always said, I would never work for myself, which is true. I never wanted to do that. But my parents were small business owners and I said, never going to happen. Yet here, I was holding these checks in my hand. And so I called my banker, an amazing woman named Stephanie Bite and said, What do I do with these? I know not to put them in my bank account. Everything else was uncertain to me. And she said, Congratulations, you're becoming a business today. And emailed me the paperwork. So that is literally how I started my own practice. About the same time Deborah Boggs started DNS Executive Career Management, with her husband, Steve, she and Steve and my husband, Jason and I, we'd all been friends for years. And we were building parallel businesses. And we began partnering with each other quite a bit over the last three to five years and officially merged the companies in January. So that is how one goes from being a lighting electrical designer early in one's 20s, to being 50 years old today and becoming a Chief Strategy Officer. So the moral of the story is walk through the doors that open. Take the opportunity when it comes. You can always walk back out, right? I tell people that all the time, people will say, Well, what if I, what if I make a bad choice? Right? Things like that. And here's the truth. We're grownups. People listen to your podcasts are likely professional grownups. Right? We know how to politely say no. And back out of a room. Just because we walk in and explore something doesn't mean we have to say yes. But it might be the best opportunity you ever had.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, I'm so glad you said that because I do think that there is this i and we could probably speculate all day about what is at the root of it, there's a lot of different things that are probably influencing that behavior. But we do tend to think about things kind of an all or nothing terms. And I always try to remind people, this is not a life sentence, right? You're, you're exploring. Exactly, you know, exploring something new and learning from it, you know, positively or negatively is growth. And it's a really good way to find out who you are and what you want to do more of and less of. And so, I think that most of us here to your point, don't know at six years old, what we want to be when we grow up and we're in our, you know, 30s 40s and beyond don't know what we want to be when we grow up either, we're still figuring it out as we go along. And if we don't walk through those doors, as you said, we're probably depriving ourselves of important opportunities and important data.
Michelle Merritt
Right. And, and it changes over the years, right, when I was six years old, I wanted to be a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader because they were on the Love Boat. Crew story. True story. That was my reason. We were not Cowboys fans. I grew up I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana. Right? We are Colts fans. And I should have substitute culture but they weren't on the they weren't on the Love Boat. Right? So I wanted to be a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. You know, we move from that, to where we are today, things change in life. And at 50, you know, I'm looking at my career in a very different way than I did it 40 or 30, or at 20. So it really is okay to let that change happen. And, and manage it. You want to plan, certainly. But you also want to experiment, you know, enjoy the ride.
Kim Meninger
So I have a question for you from the flipside because having spent a lot of time in recruiting and then also helping people with their resumes. I think one of the reasons why people are so reluctant to do this is they're afraid of a short stint. They're afraid of having to explain why they didn't stay somewhere long enough, or you know that it won't go well and then they'll have to talk about it in an interview. What, what thoughts do you have around kind of, you know, working through things that maybe you thought were good idea?
Michelle Merritt
Turned out not to be. right, and then happens. Now, the good news is the definition of short stint has changed dramatically in the last five to 10 years. Right? So when I started this work when I, so I became a recruiter at 28. I'm 50. Today very proud of that number, I always think we should talk about our age. And so at 28, when I started recruiting, if you were in a job for less than 10 years, it was considered job hopping. Right? And so, so this was in the early aughts, that that was the case. And today, we see people change every 18 months to two years. And in fact, if you stay in a role without any sort of forward mobility, if you stay with a company without any forward progression, say every three years to every five or seven years. In fact, the employers now almost question that the other way. Right? Why? Why did you say so long? Why haven't you been promoted? What's going on? That kind of thing? Now, the simple answer may be, I've been in the role for five years, my boss isn't going anywhere. She's been very clear about that. And so the only way for me to move forward is to move out. It might be as simple as that. But so what we're actually finding, are people starting to question it the other way.
Kim Meninger
Interesting, that's important for people to hear because I do think it has changed a lot. You know, since like you said the early aughts, or the, the late 90s, when people were really nervous. And I think that, you know, there's just been a general, generational shift in how people see their careers as well. And, and so is there a, let's say, what would be a red flag nowadays for a recruiter?
Michelle Merritt
For job hopping? [Yeah.] So I would say this, if you are if you are changing jobs every six months, even every year from one position to the other, and they're not necessarily upward mobility, right? It's not a larger company. It's not a bigger role. It's not more responsibility, things like and it's happening frequently. We have a problem. Now, there are some industries that have had massive layoffs. Right? There are some industries that have gone through big changes with the pandemic, things like that. So if you were working in hospitality in 2020, you know, there might be some reasonable explanation for that. There are some reasonable explanation if you were working in healthcare, or anything outside of frontline health care, during the pandemic, things like that, right? So there are times that it makes sense that there might be a quick turn or two. But if your resume is consistently full of quick spins, and turns, that's going to be a red flag.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think people are generally forgiving may not be the best work but understanding of it didn't work out. Right? I mean, themselves, it probably found themselves in that situation at some point throughout their career. And, and so I think one of the things too, that becomes tricky is, let's imagine, for example, that you did in good faith, transitioned into a new role a new company, and it just was not what you thought it would be, or it went horribly wrong in some way. And so I think there's still sort of questions or uncertainty around how do you talk about a bad work experience because everybody's afraid of saying the wrong thing and you know, it. Do you have advice on how to handle that?
Michelle Merritt
I do. I'm coaching a few clients Throughout right now. So there are a couple of things that we look at. Number one is when you can, you don't, don't stay in a position that's abusive, let me be crystal clear. Let's just start with that, right? If you're being abused by your employer, mentally, emotionally, physically, that sadly happens sometimes, you know, don't, don't stay in a position that is unhealthy or unsafe for you. With that said, if it is just wow, this isn't what I thought it was. If there's a way to stay a year, 18 months, as opposed to leaving in the first four to six months by examining what you can do to fix the situation, what you can do to manage the situation from your end, can be beneficial. With that said, oftentimes, we'll advise people less is always more in the interview. Right? So what does that look like? Well, why did you leave after six months or eight months in a role? That wasn't you know, I got there, and I learned it wasn't a good fit. Well, what does that mean for you? You know, perhaps it's a conversation around, you know, the director and I just weren't a good fit. That wasn't the person I interviewed with the, this happened to a client where they interviewed with someone else who happened to resign during their onboarding process, right, the person that was brought in was a totally different person, and totally different leadership style, totally different mindset, all of those sorts of things. So, you know, then it's an easy explanation, to say there was a leadership change, the person I thought I was going to work for, and the person I ended up working for two totally different people. Not a good fit. So I, here's what I'm doing to try and rectify the issue currently, but as a result of this, I feel like it's a good idea to look externally as well.
Kim Meninger
And I imagine that that could expand to include other changes that have happened too because the workplace is changing so rapidly now that, you know, maybe the terms of your role, your job description, etc, have changed since you took the job. And that could be a good reason to say things are just not what I thought they were going to be or they moved in a direction that no longer fits.
Michelle Merritt
We're seeing that with remote work, right, three years ago. So four years ago, we all went home and thought we'd be back two weeks, in four years ago this month. We all thought we'd be back in two weeks, right? However, three years ago, companies started saying, Hey, we're saving money, we don't have to pay rent on commercial real estate, everybody’s enjoying it. Most people are enjoying the, the remote work great. We're never going back to the office again. So people accepted new jobs or accepted different roles within an organization on that commitment. And now we see a lot of companies pulling it back yet again, and saying, Well, maybe we're going to hybrid MX, or we want you in the office full time, things like that, that may or may not fit the life that you began to build three years ago. And so there can be explanations around those things, too. We see that a lot.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, you're right. People have moved. Moved. Yeah. Yeah, I like what you said, I want to take a moment to explore this further to like what you said about not leaving immediately and kind of thinking about what is within your control, because I think about this a lot too, for a number of reasons. Number one is when you first go into a new job, there's a lot of sort of fight or flight because it's different. And we get impostor syndrome. And there's all kinds of things that go along with making a change. And so sometimes it's just too soon, we're just automatically comparing it to the familiarity of the situation we've come from, and it feels like I just want to go back to my comfort zone. But I also think about it in terms of growth. And if you can think, Okay, I'm committing to staying here for a certain amount of time, whatever that looks like, what can I do to maximize my opportunity while I'm here? I can't control my managers personality, can't control the decisions that are being made at the highest levels of an organization necessarily but I can control you know, how I take advantage of new opportunities, or how I build boundaries, or how I work on my communication skills or just things that can help me grow as a professional.
Michelle Merritt
Absolutely. I'll never forget, I right after my recruiting, contract or agency recruiting days, I took an internal recruiting role, because again, 2008 no one needed me as an external recruiter anymore. And within the first week, got crossways with my new boss, and thought went on and I said to a colleague, new colleague, I said, please tell me what just happened. I can't figure this out. And her response to me was never make your boss look bad. And I, and to this day, I can't tell you that I understand how I made her feel that way. But what I know is her perception was that I made her feel that way. And so when I looked at that, that was my opportunity to say, Okay, how does this person, my VP that I'm reporting to as a director, how do I look at things through her lens? from week one? Now we're in week two, and I got to repair this situation, right? So how do I how do I take her perspective? First, sometimes I refer to it as what's the corner office view? Right? If I'm sitting in the corner office, do I see what's happening in my office, the same way that that person does? Right? So that's one of the ways we can start to look at things right from the beginning to say, Okay, I'm clearly not like this person, we're clearly not like, I couldn't have told, it like that would have never crossed my mind that interaction that week. And yet, here we were, and I had relocated for this job, and it was going to be a big deal. If this person, if we got sideways, quick, it was gonna be a big deal. And, you know, so it was an opportunity for me to take a different look. Sometimes getting coaching is another thing, we'll have clients who return to us that we've helped with the job search, to say, okay, coach me through the first 90 days. Right? How do I, how do I onboard myself? Maybe there's a really great onboarding program, maybe there isn't. But either way, how do I onboard myself and start building a new network and new connections, and everything else. And you touched on something that I think is really important, which is that constant feeling of I want to go back to my safety net, right of where I was, where it was warm, and there were hugs, and everything else? Two things. Number one, you left for a reason. And number two, you have made a commitment to move on. So if we're constantly going back to what that warm hug, as opposed to being willing to challenge ourselves, which was the commitment we made when we accepted the offer, then we're not doing our part.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's such a great point. And I think about that a lot of one of my strategies for addressing self-doubt. And just that feeling of oh, no, I've made a big mistake, or I don't know. Right, really connect with your values. And I think that's what you're talking about, right? And to say, like, someday this is going to be history. When I look back, what will I have been proud to say that I did? Right. And I think that most of us will be more proud that we didn't go back to our comfort zone that we did get a fair shot that we challenged ourselves in these important ways. And so to ask ourselves in that moment, you know, what would it look like to show up in greatest alignment with who I want to be?
Michelle Merritt
Absolutely. The other thing I'll say, just from a very practical resume standpoint, is you don't number one resumes are a highlight reel, you do not have to replace every job you've ever had on your resume. And number two, today, we only put years in the resume, not months. So that helps cover up a few gaps once in a while, too.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I'm really glad you said that because I have seen people who consistently who continue to put in the months and I think, Oh, you're just asking for people to start going down a rabbit hole.
Michelle Merritt
You're asking for math, and no one wants to do math. Unless you're a CFO but even then they don't need to do math on your resume. Right?
Kim Meninger
Well, you actually made me think of something else too. Because every now and then people will feel like their greatest hits are the things that they want to promote are further behind in their work experience. Want to put that front and center. So what are your thoughts on whether to position things chronologically or be creative about it? Do you have a different opinion on that?
Michelle Merritt
So chrono… if we do not use a chronological resume, we tend to, we tend to open the door for people to start investigating, right? Standard procedure is chronological resumes. Now that said, here's a couple of ways to think about that thing from way back when, number one, we tend to focus on the last 10 to 15 years of your resume. Now your resume while it's about you, it is not for you. It is for the reader. I must say this nine times a day. Your resume is not about you is or is about you but it's not for you. It's for the reader. So we're writing accomplishments and achievements that matter to the reader. We all have that thing from way back when that was a great accomplishment at the time, but doesn't matter to the reader. Right? Your resume is about where you're going and highlighting where you've been in a way that supports where you're headed. So that's the first thing is making sure of that. The second thing is you can list prior roles, right, you can go back 10 or 15 years and then have a single line that says, you know, previous roles include, and, you know, it might be Chief Strategy Officer, DNS, executive career management, you know, that kind of thing. Great, super, you don't have to put yours necessarily when you start when you have a line like that. And another reason not to put yours is dealing with age discrimination. But then you can pull up a key accomplishments section. So sometimes in a resume, what we'll do is we'll write the leadership summary at the top right, gone are the days of objectives, I think most of your readers know that or hopefully they do. And instead, it's a three-sentence summary of who you are that big picture. But you can opt instead of diving straight into the experience section, to have a three to four bullet-pointed list of key accomplishments, or career highlights. So maybe there's something there from 15 or 18 years ago, that you're exceptionally proud of that could go in that section, without you having to create an entire section for that specific employment. Does that make sense?
Kim Meninger
That does, That’s really helpful. And I like what you say, but it's, it's about you, but not for you. I think that's a really important framing. [Right.] And then I guess my question for you to to build on the resume. Structure is what, what are your thoughts on technology these days, and now AI is getting big is a, you know, playing a big part. I mean, everybody, everybody feels like their resume goes into a black hole. Everybody feels like they don't, you know, do you have thoughts on what to do to prevent that from happening or to maximize the chances that it's going to be seen?
Michelle Merritt
I’m sure you've heard this already. But 85% of jobs are found through people we know. Not through applying online. Right? That's a statistic directly from LinkedIn. And think about it. LinkedIn is one of the largest job boards out there. So think about your network, right? Who in your network can be helping you? Your network is going to bring forth those hidden jobs, right, those things that we all have, we all know that person that got the job that we were looking for that job didn't have, we would have loved to have interviewed for that. And yet, it wasn't even like I didn't even know it was a thing. I didn't know it was open. Right? It's because other people did know but it wasn't being publicized. Not all jobs are publicized. And oftentimes, the bigger the further up, we go in the ladder, the bigger the leadership role, the less likely they are to be published. So leverage your network. That's the first thing. There are ways to make sure that you have specific key words and phrases for positions in industry, then that's where sometimes something like an AI like a Chat GTP something like that can be helpful. Right? You can put it into Chat GTP what is what are the resume keywords for a director of product at a made at a fortune 100 manufacturer? Right? And I'm making that up off top my head, but you know it, it will spit out for you the most common keywords and phrases that are and what are keywords. So that's something that we might want to address. Keywords are often those words or phrases that a recruiter or hiring manager is entering on the back end of their database. On the version, they see this a give me all the resumes in our database that have this word, this word in this word in it, right? So these are the words we want to make sure are in the resume. But what you don't want to do is just throw a bunch of words up there that don't matter, or apply to you. So think about if you're looking at a list like that, you don't have to use chat GTP if you're not on the AI bandwagon, that's fine. You can Google that. And there will be lots of other sites that will give you keywords and phrases. Incorporate the words into the wording of your document. Right? Now that so that may mean you know setting a strategic roadmap for a go-to-market strategy for a certain product, right, if you're in a product design is the example we're using. So you know how can you word that statement that bullet point that to no more than two sentences to demonstrate the accomplishment and use those words or phrases?
Kim Meninger
Hmm, uh-huh. Yeah, the keyword stuffing.
Michelle Merritt
They can feel that way. And you don't want word salad. Right? You want to make sure that it is something that still makes sense to the reader. Because at some point, so we're going to sit down in an interview across from someone who's going to have to read this document.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. Are there certain things that you would say are absolutely going to ruin your resume? Things that people like any kind of things that people are doing that they shouldn't be?
Michelle Merritt
Oh, it's a good question. So don't make the font so small that in order to step everything onto a single page that can't be read, right, the further up we go in our careers, the more likely our resume is going to be two pages, once in a while that can be three. There got to be there has to be specific reasons for that. But you know, don't, if you are advancing in your career, and you've been in your career for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, chances are, it's not all going to fit on one page. Right? But be succinct and be concise data and metrics were available and appropriate, are always great to share because it helps the reader. Remember, it's for the reader, it helps the reader understand the depth and the magnitude of your responsibility.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, yeah, that it? I'm glad you said that. Because I think there are people who are very militant about saying that a resume shouldn't be more than one page. But I do agree with you that once you get to a certain point in your career, that's really hard to do and accurately convey your, the depth and breadth of your experience.
Michelle Merritt
Quality over quantity, right? So I need quality data and quality information. Again, thinking about the reader, how's the reader reading it? What's important to the, me as the reader? So quality information that matters to the reader will go a long way. And keep me reading as well. Yeah, but knowing that the average resume gets about six seconds, the first time someone looks at it. [Ooh, that's a good step to know. Wow.] Yeah. So you know, that's where having those key accomplishments at the top can matter. It might mean bolding, some data. That matter, it might mean adding a highlight box, or an accomplishment box with the various sections, there could be a variety of ways to grab attention. But be mindful of your format. Also remembering that most resumes that are formatted in like two columns side by side, things like that are not going to upload cleanly to an applicant tracking system. You've heard it called an ATS, or the robot, the black hole, the AI, whatever, whatever you want to call it, that thing that you're uploading it to those two column formats are not necessarily going to upload cleanly.
Kim Meninger
Oh, that was gonna be my next question for you too, is, do you recommend that people have a pretty version that they share with people and like a really clean, simple version that you would actually put into a system?
Michelle Merritt
If you're really committed to having logos and columns and things like that in your document, and sometimes, marketing people, pro coaches I've had, I've had pro athletes and pro coaches, who we have written resumes for that have columns in them had team logos in them from the major coaching teams, they've coached things like that. If you're committed to that, yes, you need another version that is nice and clean. There are ways to highlight a traditional resume and just make sure it's applicant-friendly, or ATS-friendly as well.
Kim Meninger
Thank you. I have another question for you. You can tell me whether or not this is outside the scope of what you now you focus on?
Michelle Merritt
You could ask me anything. But I might answer so be prepared?
Kim Meninger
Well, I feel like I will, you know, do it be doing the audience a disservice if I don't bring up the salary question. Right? And I wonder, I think we have, we're making progress. Certain states have now actually prohibited people from asking about your current salary. And so, but it still seems to be one of the most anxiety-provoking questions of, you know, what is your desired salary range, things like that. And I think even though there are some tools out there that can help provide a bit of a ballpark. What I'm hearing is that now that, you know, companies have to put salaries on there are certain in certain states, they're making the range super wide. It's not helpful to anybody. And so everyone's so afraid that they're going to either scare people away or they're going to leave money on the table. What are your thoughts on the money question?
Michelle Merritt
So couple things. And I talk about money in salary negotiation every day. So it's one of my favorite topics. I had two grandfathers who taught me how to negotiate when I was young. And probably to my parents dismay, they taught me very well. Now, that said, when we're talking about income, right, we're talking about number one, as you pointed out, lots of states and municipalities now cannot ask that question. 22 states or municipalities last I looked, are no longer allowed to ask that question. There's a great resource on HR Dive. If you literally type in, can you ask my salary? Can you ask my current salary? HR Dive, it will, if you Google that phrase, it will pop that link up for you. And they keep that link updated very regularly. So you know, who's allowed to do it and who's not. Now that said, when, when we're talking about salary ranges, I don't like to give a range. And let me tell you why. If, if I am, if my salary range, I'm going to make this up is 150 to 175, base salary, right? If I say, so if I say to you, my recruiter. My range is between 150 and 175. What I have told you is I will accept 150. Right? I've not told you why I'm worth 175. Right? So we want to stay away from ranges where we can, if a recruiter asks me, where's your salary range? My first question in response, never asked my I was taught young never to answer a question with a question. But this is the exception to that. You know, my, my response is, give me an idea of where you need, what the salary ranges for this position. And I will be truthful with you as to whether or not that's a fit. [Hmm.] Right? So this is my question back to the recruiter. Right, Michelle, what's your salary? Kim, tell me what, what we're looking at here. Tell me where you need to be. And I'll tell you if that's a fit. So in our 150 to 175 example, if you say to me, Well, you know, Michelle, we're 160 to 170. I'm going to say great. I do fit in that but know that I'm going to be at the top end of that salary range. [Hmm.] Right? If I'm really seeking 175, then we need to know that. Here's the other thing that's important to know, is what is the automatic? Yes. And what's the automatic? No. So the automatic Yes. Is, What are the things that I need? So that if you made me an offer, I could say yes, instantly. I would never advise doing that. But I don't have to, I don't have to reread the offer. I don't have to sleep on it. I don't have to check in with anyone at home. I can say yes to this. Right? What is the automatic? No, the automatic No, is doesn't matter how much I like you doesn't matter how excited I am. If it's below this, nothing that I can do. Can't do it. Right? And then what makes up that for each person, this varies wildly, it might be salary. Right? So our actual paycheck, right makes up a large part of several compensation. It might be flexibility, it might be remote work, it might be retirement contributions. When you get to, again, those career requirements change as we age, right? So we may want to really load our 401k or IRAs, all of those sort of things. As, as we get a little older and make a little more money. So what are the things that matter to you? Is it vacation time? Is it stock options? Is it insurance benefits? What matters to you that makes up those, those total packages that automatic yes and automatic no.
Kim Meninger
And, I think that's so important to think about to uh, what, what's beyond the number? Right and, and I love that. I think a lot of people are gonna love hearing you say that it's okay to ask the recruiter for the range because I think everyone's afraid of doing something disrespectful or out of bounds, that's going to, you know, put them on the wrong side of the person. And so, the permission at the end, obviously, being respectful and professional, of course, the permission to ask the recruiter for the information first makes the process a lot easier because they know, they know what they're willing to pay what they're not willing to pay. We don't.
Michelle Merritt
We absolutely do. And I will say this. If you are if your range is 180 to 200, and they tell you, it's 160 to 170, you know, you're going to need to be truthful with them, don't go, don't put yourself through the process in hopes that you're going to get to the end and suddenly get 190. Right? So my response, then at that point might be, you know, I'm 15 to 20%, above your range. So if, if that range has no flexibility, then I would love to use this conversation to connect with you and get to know you and learn how we can help each other as part of our network. But it's not the right fit for me.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. It's a great response.
Michelle Merritt
Right? Because we want to make sure, interviews can be a great networking opportunity. But we don't I just recently had a client, who has I think I posted a video about it recently, but who just said, you know, listen, that's beneath my salary range. But I was, I was excited that you invited me. I'm really excited about this company. Let's spend our time together, getting to know one another, and how we might be able to work together in the future. Or I might even know someone who'd be a better fit. Right? And so totally different way to take control of the conversation. And make sure that you're still building your professional network because interviews are a great way to network.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I really liked that idea too because you're talking about one position right now. But you don't know that there won't be another one that's unique. If you build this relationship, right?
Michelle Merritt
Absolutely. And hiring managers talk to each other recruiters talk to each other. I had a client several years ago who had been through, gosh, so many interviews, she was so exhausted, she was a Data Science Analyst. She was wicked smart but had just been struggling. And all of a sudden, she gets a call, she gets turned down for another one that she was super excited about. She gets a call from someone that she did not know. And he said, you interviewed with my best friend. And last week, we were playing racquetball. And he told me, I needed to hire you and gave me your resume. [Wow.] She's worked for them for the last decade. Oh, that's a great Oh, you know, recruiting recruiters talk to each other hiring managers talk to each other. We all have friends, things like that. So you never know where your next opportunity is going to come from.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. And I guess one more follow-up question to the to the salary piece. And I think there is a sort of expectation these days that the author will be low. Is that true, like, do you advise everyone to go back and see if there's opportunity for more or do you say like…
Michelle Merritt
So one of the things I will ask the recruiter or ask the hiring manager who's accepted the offer is, is this your final offer? Is it your best offer? If they say, absolutely it is, you need to believe them? Yeah. Now there are people who will argue that you still have time to go back. I have seen offers pulled because someone has said this is our final offer and someone's gone back yet again. Right? So I've only had it happen one time where someone has negotiated in a counteroffer. That was not where she was not told it was a final offer. I've only had it happen once where, where they pulled the offer. It is notable that two months later that company filed for bankruptcy.
Kim Meninger
Oh, wow. So actually a gift.
Michelle Merritt
It didn't feel like it that day. But it was a gift. Um, and so what we know is ask, ask for it right up front, you know, is this your best and final offer? And know what you're going to be asking questions. They may say, Well, what's wrong with it? I don't know. I haven't read it yet. So I need some time to think about when do you need a response. That's the other thing, right? We don't volunteer a response. We ask, when do you need a response? Because more than likely, the company is going to give you more time to respond. And you will give yourself. Right? We'll say can I get you an answer tomorrow? On Monday, we may say can you get can we get you an answer tomorrow? that hiring manager may say great by next Monday. Let's just, Let's just have this nailed down by next Monday. Right? Or can I have an answer by Friday so we can have the updated offer to you on Monday? Right? Give yourself time ask them when they need the response back and then you can start to craft what your response is. I never consider an offer that isn't in writing. I've been tripped up on that before. So have many others. So your offer needs to be in writing. And your response needs to be in writing as well.
Kim Meninger
It's good. And then the, the multiple offers, right? Because it's never aligned perfectly timewise if you know someone has makes you an offer, and you know, you're probably gonna be getting another one in the foreseeable future, but you don't know when is, is it appropriate to let the recruiter know you need more time? Because you're waiting on another offer? Like how do you navigate that conversation?
Michelle Merritt
It’s a tough one. It's a tough one. The question is how well do you know your recruiter? Right? But I can tell you this, most recruiters I know are not going to be willing to wait. Most recruiters I know are going to be so again, ask how much time you have, right? And if you need to push it back a day or two, chances are, you can do that. In most cases, if they give you say, a week to consider, or five days to consider, and suddenly you need two more weeks, it is unlikely that that employer is going to say yes to that. Right? Now, it's not ideal by any stretch what I'm about to say, but you can accept an offer and still decline it before it starts. If another one comes in, it does happen. It is certainly not the ideal case scenario. But if you say yes to an offer this Friday and April 15, the other offer comes in, it is reasonable to say, listen, you knew that I was interviewing with multiple companies. Clearly, I was out interviewing externally. Another offer has come in and I'm going to accept that offer. What I would advise you away from is really trying to pit one against the other. But you can certainly let a recruiter know listen, I've received this offer. Here's what it is, that kind of thing. But once we tell a recruiter or hiring manager that we are looking for another job, or we're entertaining another offer things like that, it becomes a counteroffer situation on their end at that point. And what we know is most people don't stay in counteroffer situations more than about six months.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Right. I think it certainly sends a message to that recruiter or employer that they're not your first choice. That's right like that. There's that you're not wholeheartedly committed. And that would seem like a risk to them, right?
Michelle Merritt
Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a rule that I did not negotiate counteroffers when I was the internal recruiter, right? So if all count will negotiate your offer, that's fine. But if two weeks in or six months, and suddenly you come to me every year, and, and you come to me and say, well, this external company has offered me 10,000 more dollars a year. Great. Perhaps you need to look at that offer. Because you're likely not looking because of the money. Right? If you break down, what, $10,000 a year or even $15,000 a year, $12,000 a year what that breaks down to in your paycheck that you take home every week. Isn't that much of a difference. So there's probably another reason you're looking at a lot of internal talent acquisition recruiters will not will not consider a counteroffer. [Hmm.] Some will.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Oh my gosh, Michelle, you and I were joking about this before I hit record. I could literally just sit here all day and keep asking and…
Michelle Merritt
We can just… Yes. Let's just keep going. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
I know you’re such a wealth of important information. And I'm sure that everybody listening is thinking the same thing. But in the interest of time, I want to point everybody who wants more of you in your direction. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your services?
Michelle Merritt
Absolutely. So you can go to our website DS career management mint.com easy for me to get out the DS career management.com You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn. So you can just search Michelle Merritt that's to Michelle with two L's married with two R's and two T's you can search for me there and connect anytime send me an invite to connect. I'm always happy to do so.
Kim Meninger
And I will make sure that those links are in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Michelle, this has been so helpful for me. You know, I, It's always great for me to be updating my own firm. First, like I said, for people listening, so I'm really grateful.
Michelle Merritt
Okay, well thanks for having me.