In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the link between our identities and our jobs. Losing or leaving our jobs can be emotionally challenging because of the weight our jobs hold in our lives. Too often, we continue along the path in front of us because we’re afraid of who we’ll be, or won’t be, if we make a career change. My guest this week, Jen Lewi is the founder and CEO of Design Your Next Step. Here we talk about how to navigate the grief and identity challenges we face when making a career transition.
About My Guest
Jen Lewi, MBA, CAE, ACC, is the Founder and CEO of Design Your Next Step, a boutique Executive Coaching and Career Strategy firm, helping professionals maximize their strengths and design fulfilling career paths. Jen’s clients have:
Transitioned smoothly into a new role or industry.
Overcome workplace challenges.
Advanced their leadership skills.
Grown their professional brands.
Job-crafted to design more fulfilling jobs.
Explored, and pursued new career paths.
Navigated parenthood with a rewarding career.
Throughout her career, Jen mastered the art of job-crafting to build fulfilling roles. She applies that learning when clients want to build a new career path, navigate a new position, or make the most of their current jobs. At the School Nutrition Association, she held a variety of senior roles in marketing, membership, professional development, and conferences. She started her career in the corporate world with leadership roles in marketing at BBC America and in advertising at Saatchi & Saatchi. These experiences allow her to link corporate and non-profit best practices and provide an international perspective to coaching engagements, as needed. Jen holds multiple coaching certifications, a Bachelor of Arts from McGill University and a Masters in Management, from HEC Paris.
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Connect with Jen:
Website: www.designyournextstep.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenlewi/
Article links:
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Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Jen, it is so great to have you here today, I was really excited to see you again. And now I'm excited to have this conversation with on the podcast and share it with the community. So I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself. Thanks,
Jen Lewi
Kim. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. So I'm Jen Lewi, I am an executive coach and a Career Strategist. In other words, what I do is I help people have a better time at work. I like to say I make work work for people. And I fundamentally believe that we evolve over the years and our careers need to evolve with us. And I think I'm a good example of that, because for a long time, I was a vice president corporate, I was at a nonprofit, and I really was happy in my jobs. But I was on the CEO track. And I suddenly realized that that track was no longer fitting with what I wanted in life. And I looked for patterns, and realize that the pattern in my life that was consistent was the fact that I love coaching my teams, my peers, our volunteer leaders. And so that's how I decided to go into coaching, get my certification, and really pivot to this more entrepreneurial approach.
Kim Meninger
So I have a question for you because this actually came up in a conversation, a group conversation I was part of a couple of hours ago, where we were talking about the definition of success, right? And how oftentimes, our definition of success we may or may not realize, is influenced by forces around us. And when you talked about being on a CEO track, there's probably a part, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But I could imagine one feeling like wow, that's, that's a career peak, right? Like something we we should all watch to do. Or it's like, you know, it's like a logical next step in your career. Yet, it's not for everyone. And I wonder, like, when you think about it, in terms of, and I think you and I have talked about identity in the past, too. It's like, how do you come to a place where you are able to say, I don't, even though there may be pressures to want that? I don't want that. And I'm willing to walk away from that?
Jen Lewi
I think that's a great question. Because so much of career pathing is what society expects, or the organization expects, right? So if you have climbed the ranks over the years, you just figure well, I'm going to keep climbing. And I think a couple of things happen. One is, are you still happy climbing? And then once you've reached that so called societal peak, is that your peak? Or is it what's expected next? And what comes with that, and to me, what came with the CEO, CEO role is oversight and strategy but not at all being involved in the probe chromatics. At least a good CEO shouldn't be, right, they should be setting the vision and the strategy and other people should, should be figuring out the next steps there. So I think being removed from the programmatics and the direct impact was something that I did not want to miss. And so it does take a lot of soul searching to say, Am I really going to walk away from this path that seems like it's right there, for me to grab? And I think that's really where reflection comes in and noticing patterns and what you love to do and what you don't like to do. I always like to say just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you love to do it, and finding what those things are that you're good at that you love to do.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. And that, I think, is another reflection of how much we sort of how much stock we put in other people's opinions or, you know, sort of expectations of us. Because what often happens is maybe we are good at something, maybe we do enjoy it for a little while, but it becomes part of our brand, right? And then it becomes really hard to break the habit or break that expectation that has been set for us. And so we end up going down a path that becomes increasingly less desirable or it's no longer in alignment, alignment with our values, but I also think that we aren't necessarily either. Feeling like we have the time for even necessarily conscious have the opportunity to do the kind of reflection that you're talking about. Because we're so busy, we're doing, doing, doing, we've got a million other responsibilities at work at home, that we can get swept away with without even realizing it. And then all of a sudden you wake up and think, Wait a second, what? What am I doing and why?
Jen Lewi
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point because you mentioned identity earlier. And I think that, unfortunately, so often our work is tied to our identity. And we identify so much with the job. Like you, so many people say, “I'm [their name] and I'm from [x company].” And then when they're no longer from that company, that's strange. And then taking the time to reflect about not only might I not want to be in this company anymore but that path is no longer part of my identity is a really tough leap to make. So I think you're absolutely right, that people don't have the time for that reflection. I think that's where coaching comes in. Where it's a safe space, and it's precious space to really reflect and really think through, what do I really want to do next?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's a really good.
Jen Lewi
Yeah. And is what I wanted 10 years ago, what I thought I wanted 10 years ago, that led me to where I am still what I want, as you said, is it still in alignment with my values? Is it still in alignment with where I see my life going? In, you know, our careers are supposed to support our lives. And sometimes our lives are supporting our careers. And so I think, I think that evolves over time, too.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I think that's so important, too, because there's a couple of things to what you said, there's the maybe I didn't know what I didn't know, when I set that vision for myself, or I because I was younger, and you can't really know what it's gonna feel like until you're there, you can have some idea of what that looks like. Or maybe my values and priorities have shifted, as I've entered different phases of my life. And so for us to stay attached to the original vision we had for our careers almost seems silly when we talk about it this way, right? Because, of course, we're going to evolve as people, we're going to be very different, but sometimes that it feels like who am I if I'm not this?
Jen Lewi
Exactly. And I think that's where people often when they say they feel stuck. That's often what's happening, they realize that where they are, is no longer in alignment with what they want. But they don't know what they want next. So it's this feeling of disconnection and discomfort, that actually if they lean into that, they will hear what's really going on inside themselves and hear what they might want to be doing or what they're curious about.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a good point to you. Because, I mean, we could spend all day talking about the comfort zone and how powerful it is, and how easy it is to justify staying in the situation that we're in, because it's the path of least resistance. But I also think there's, it's really worth thinking about, the longer I stay where I am now is assuming that you're not happy or feeling like there's a better option out there for you know, the longer I'm not doing these other things like these other things that I'm more interested in that where I can add greater value. And so I often think about the fact that our brains are, are so wired for loss avoidance, and we're so afraid of losing what's right in front of us. But we don't often balance that equation with Yeah, but what do I lose by staying? Right? We always say what do I lose by leaving? Because what we know, we know the here and now we don't know the uncertain future. So we say like, oh, but I'm gonna lose this or I'm gonna lose that. But what do I lose by staying? I think is a really important question to balance that out.
Jen Lewi
Absolutely. And, you know, what is the, you know, what is the consequence of staying and I have found that the other issue that comes up is people think that they need to know for certain what's next, the challenge is that they often are not comfortable with where they are, but they don't know where to go next. And they think, Well, I've got to have the solution. And the truth is the solution isn't experimentation and action and trying things out rather than saying, Well, I don't want to be a engineer anymore. I want to be a chief marketing officer, you know that that is not usually how it works. It's more like, Oh, I'm an engineer and this marketing thing seems interesting. I wonder how I can try that. So I think taking small step towards what you're curious about, is a good way to start getting unstuck.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. Because you're right, that either there isn't, it feels like too big of a leap, to go from one thing like engineering to marketing overnight. Or maybe, maybe it's not even, you know, logistically possible because you have to build certain skills to make that transition. Or it's just too daunting, right? So I think that like, the pacing is really important because if you are going to change, it's going to have to be something that your, your brain can keep up with.
Jen Lewi
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, the funny thing isn't you and I were talking about this earlier, is that once people have made that leap, so I have found this lately, especially with a lot of my clients, they come to me, they want to change jobs, or they want to change industries, and we work together and they get there, right? They get there gotten their new job, they've changed industries, or they've, you know, change companies. And then there's this feeling of ambivalence, because they're saying, you know, what, I've been wanting to leave this job for, like, 10 years, and I've left it, and I'm feeling grief, I'm feeling some sadness. And a lot of that has to do with what you were talking about, which is this idea that they were sort of stuck in that other identity. So they're moving on to something that's new.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think it's so important to acknowledge that because it doesn't mean you made the wrong decision. Right, like, it is possible for two things to be true at the same time that you made the right decision, and that you're sad to leave behind the parts of that that, you know, either you did enjoy. Or maybe it was the relationships, maybe, you know, just for that part of your identity, since close a chapter in your life is a big deal.
Jen Lewi
Oh, absolutely. And I think there's so much at play during that time. I know that in other podcasts, you've talked about sort of that transition space and the ambiguity of that transition space. That's part of it. The other piece is when you decide to quit a job, suddenly, everyone is so nice to you. I mean, I'm generalizing. And of course, I'm talking more for professional jobs, right? But everyone that even the people that you didn't get along with, suddenly, you're in a different space in their minds. And you're thinking, wow, I actually worked with really great people. And wow, they actually really like me, why am I leaving? So there's that piece. And then there's sort of the safety in the known, you know, your job and you're like, wait a minute, and then you're, you're basically preparing to leave so that somebody can take over. And as you prepare to leave so somebody can take over, you realize that you're a real expert in your job. So you're, you're kind of letting that expertise go, and that knowledge. And then I think the other thing that happens is that reality sets in with a new job. So at first, this new job was all exciting and wonderful. But then you know what they're telling you about this major challenge you need to solve, or this fire you have to put out, or they're sending you all this paperwork you need to fill out like it's all not as fun. And I think the big thing, too, is this idea of identity, right? Like, who am I now that I'm not in that other job? And I'm going to this unknown space where I don't know the people, I don't have my routine. Yeah, all those things are at play.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I think you know, that's where impostor syndrome comes in to is, it's a, it's a prime time for those. Yes. What have I done, I made a huge mistake, right? Like, I can't actually do this. And then we romanticize the past because we sort of overlook all the reasons why we thought it was a good idea and believed it was a good idea to move and we just think about, oh, I was so good at my job, like you said, right. Or if I knew everybody, I knew all the ins and outs when we, we just make this comparison that is not apples to apples, because we're comparing ourselves at the start of something new to ourselves at the end of something that we were very familiar with and had a lot of experience with. And so I think that's a really important expectation to set when you are starting something new is it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to feel scary. It's going to take some time. Just as we talked about onboarding, you know, 90 days, the first 90 days, the first 90 days are an emotional onboarding process too.
Jen Lewi
Absolutely. And I will say, you know, I think over the years, I have seen people really get caught up in the stuff that people are so nice, I'm such an expert at my job. And then the company reaches back out to them that they're working at and says, you know, we'll give you a little bit more money to stay. And they stay, instead of taking this great new job. And they end up regretting it, because they wanted to leave. That feeling of wanting to leave is still there too seasoned for the job, there was a reason that they wanted to leave. But my recommendation for people who are in that situation where they, they just made the leap, and they're in the new job is to embrace this period of transition, embrace the fact that it's uncertain, as you said, that you're starting something new. And you don't know everything you don't know all the acronyms you don't know who the key players are, and you're not as connected to people, that's the hardest part. And then find a way to get to build a routine for yourself. Because part of what I think we miss is the routine, we know that there's usually meaning at this time, we take our lunch, and we do this. And so whether that's at night, when you can sort of control your routine, or in the mornings before work starts, try to build in some routine, so it feels like you're more in control. And then I would say connect, connect with your new colleagues. Give yourself some distance from the old colleagues. So you can sort of break up a little bit, and then reconnect with them. And you will be able to notice that you have even more rapport with some. And they go from colleagues to friends, which is sometimes very nice. And then fundamentally, don't look back on your decision. Like just don't.
Kim Meninger
Yes, you're absolutely right. You made that decision for a reason. Trust yourself and just look forward. Because you're it's not gonna, not gonna serve you. But it's so interesting because I'm thinking about, I always think about the parallels between career and personal life. And I was thinking about, you know, over-staying in a relationship. And your partner is like, No, we can work it out. Right? Like, give me another chance. And you do and then you're like, Wait a second. Now I remember why. Ship in the first thing is trusting our instincts, right? And really knowing that even though it's scary, and even though it's going to be hard to get back out there again, there is something better for us if we're willing to take that risk.
Jen Lewi
Yes, and in the same way, like with a relationship, sometimes people get defined by that relationship. I'm so and so's partner, so and so is my partner. Who am I when that person isn't my partner? Like, what is our, what does our social life look like now that we're not together? What do our living arrangements look like? It's the same thing with a job. It's like, who am I now that I'm not affiliated with this job? Especially if you've been there for a long time?
Kim Meninger
Yes, absolutely. And I was sharing with you before we hit record, I had been at the same company for almost 10 years. And I consider it kind of the best of times and the worst of times, right? Like I had some really good friends and some really good experiences. But by the time I made the decision to go, I was ready to go. I knew that I had no, this has kind of run its course, I was excited for what was new. But I remember the minute they turned off my email, like as soon as I could no longer get back into the system. It was so finally to me, I just burst into tears and like, oh my goodness, it's over. You know, this huge chapter of my life is just over and it was so sad to me. And I was so surprised by the emotion because like I've been, you know, trying to find the exit for so long now, and I finally have it and here I am like, but it was just this really emotional experience to say goodbye to something that had been such a big part of my life for so long.
Jen Lewi
Oh, absolutely. And I can relate completely. So I was in my last job for 18 years and a variety of exciting roles. And I loved it but I wanted to do this entrepreneurial coaching business like it was my thing. And so I had been planning it for a long time I was very transparent with my CEO I gave them so much notice like everybody was like ready for me to go and I was ready to go at that point. And you know, it was one of those remote workdays. So I was the only one in the office on my last day. And I remember the feeling of just closing the door and, and it being the last time that I was gonna be allowed in and out of that office. And it was like a moment in a television show. When, when, you know, you're like, Wow, this is it, this is it. It's really like closing a chapter. And there's a lot of emotion with that. But you know, without being uncomfortable without getting out of these routines, we don't grow.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And that's a really important reminder because I think it's always a values conflict, right, the value that we hold around the familiar and comfortable and like, we just want to stay in our safe zone, and the value we hold about challenging ourselves and continuing to grow and to feel like we're moving in the direction that we want to be moving in. And so it is really important to be able to say, Yes, this is sad. But if I stay here, I'm not honoring this, you know, higher priority that I have for myself.
Jen Lewi
Absolutely, absolutely. I think your, your brain knows it's the right thing. But your heart is a bit sad. Kind of have to listen to your brain be like, Yeah, this is the rational right decision.
Kim Meninger
That’s exactly right. I have a question for you. For people listening who are maybe thinking, I know, I'm at that point. I know I'm I've sort of been thinking about making this change for a long time. But I really don't know where I want to go next. I really have not have not figured out what I want. I remember there was a before I chose to leave my tech career, I bought a book called I Don't Know What I Want. But I know it's not this. And so I always use that expression to talk about people who were like, Yeah, I have concluded that this is not where I'm going to be long term. But I really don't even know what step one is for thinking about what else is possible. So do you have thoughts on? Like, what's the first thing you would recommend people who are listening start to think about if they want to figure out what's a better path for them?
Jen Lewi
Well, I think the first thing is to first understand what is it you want in life? Like, nevermind the job, but what is it that you do you want more flexibility? Do you is going into the office just sort of a nonstarter for you? And you have to go in like what is what is going on in your life that your career needs to support? So I think that, you know, it's sort of like, what are your what are those things that you did are so important and affect your life that your job needs to meet? So that's the first place. The second place would be to kind of be a detective around what it is that you love to do. So looking tracking your job right now and saying, what is it in my job that I thrive in? Where am I in this state of flow? Or what really energizes me and what doesn't? So that'll give you some clues around? What is it that you're doing now that you love? And then what are you curious about? And this is sort of my favorite area, which is okay, maybe you know, you love to golf, or maybe you love to read or maybe you love to write or find something that you've always been curious about and take a small step. So if you've always wanted to write, write an article for somebody or write an article on LinkedIn, if you, you know, I have one client, who really wants to be a voiceover artist in he's his career was completely different, you know, just sort of experiment with having a podcast, what would that look like? There's a book that I would definitely recommend, which is called Design Your Life. And, and I'm sure you've heard of it, it's a great book, because it, it applies design thinking, which is exactly what I'm talking about, which is looking at your circumstance right now accepting it, then finding things you're curious about experimenting, and then learning from that experiment, and then trying again, so prototyping. And then I would say, work with a coach, if you can afford it, try to get a coach because it will get you there faster because you'll have some accountability. In terms of regular sessions, you'll likely have homework between sessions. So it'll get you to what you want, faster. And then I would say, look at people who have jobs, you might be interested in and talk to them. Just find out what it's like what their day-to-day is, like, if there's companies that you're curious about, but you're not sure what you would do there, talk to people in those companies and find out what the culture is like.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. Those are such great tips. And I think that they what I like about them too, is they're not hugely time-consuming. They're not all that scary. Read, they might be more scary for some than for others. But I love the detective mindset because that also shows that you're not. You haven't determined your focus yet. So you can be somewhat playful in the process and you know, at a certain point is going to make sense for you to narrow your focus. But at this point, if you truly don't know what you want to do, now's the time to be curious. Now's the time to have those conversations as you're describing of like, Hmm, this person always seems like they're having fun or this person, it seems like they're doing something interesting. Just ask them some questions. People love to talk about themselves. I know there's also that fear of, oh, I don't want to bother anybody. I don't want to reach out to somebody because there's they're too busy. People love it when you, you know, when you ask them their, their story?
Jen Lewi
Absolutely. And I love the fact that you mentioned the playfulness, I think that's exactly the spirit to go into this with, which is an experimentation mindset, and a playful mindset. Have fun with it. Make this enjoyable? Because you need to do it anyway. Yes, you might as well have fun with it. Exactly. Exactly. I love that. Yeah,
Kim Meninger
Yes, you might as well have fun with it.
Jen Lewi
Exactly. Exactly. I love that.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think this is super helpful. Because it's real. And you know, it would we'd love to be able to sit here and tell you that, oh, yeah, you make a decision, and you get the new offer. And you move on and everything just works, right? But humans are complex creatures. And we have lots of feelings. And it's not a linear path, either. I think it's also important to realize that, you know, you can be really excited at the beginning of a new job, and then you are sad. And then you get re-energized. And then maybe you're sad again. And so just knowing that it's a journey, that they're going to be different. I think this isn't going back to relationships, right? I always joke about how you're out of a relationship, and you think I'm done, I've moved on. And then a song comes on the radio, and you're like, Oh, no. So that can happen in work situations to where like, you see somebody's post on LinkedIn. And you're like, Oh, I miss that person. And it takes you right back to where you were before. But it's, it's a, it's a journey. It's a progression and, and to just be kind to ourselves and recognize that this there's nothing we're not doing anything wrong. We're just honoring the, the process of making these kinds of transitions.
Jen Lewi
Absolutely. And I know your podcast is all about impostor syndrome. And I think there are moments of impostor syndrome throughout that process. There's the moment when you've decided to leave when you're starting something new. And you just, you're kind of some people are like, I don't even know why they hired me like, I'm totally unqualified for it. I don't know, maybe I just got lucky. Like, you start thinking like that. And then maybe there's a small win, but then you realize you offended somebody, you don't know why I'm offended them, and then you kind of go into this other like more imposter syndrome. So it follows you through that process of change often, and not to let it get you down. Like not to believe it? Because there's a reason you were chosen for that position.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes. And, I would say that, it's this might sound counterintuitive but just expect it to come. Right? Expect it to be there. Because if you expect it to be there, when it does show up. It's not because you've done anything wrong. It's not because it's true. It's just because it's the human brains way of responding to change it too scary.
Jen Lewi
Yeah. And I know you're an expert in this area. So what would you tell people once it shows up?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I mean, my, my philosophy on impostor syndrome is that it's kind of a version of the fight or flight response, right? It's like your brain's way of saying, danger, right? Like you've just stepped outside of your comfort zone, we want, we want to be back in that safe space. So when I tell when, when this voice tells me, you're a fraud, it's really a way of hopefully convincing you you've made a mistake and take you right back into your comfort zone. So that voice that's telling you all these nasty things, is actually well intentioned, they're doing it because they want to get your attention as quickly as possible so that you'll escape the burning building. But it's our opportunity to not accept it at face value, and to just be able to say, Hey, I recognize you, right, like, I know what you're trying to do here, and I appreciate it. But this is not a true threat. And to also remind yourself, we're always comparing, like I said, we're comparing ourselves at the start of something new to ourselves at the end of something. Go back to the beginning of the last job you were in and remember what it felt like then Right? Remind yourself yeah, I've been here many times before because is, every time I've done something new, I have experienced some version of this. And I've made it to the other side, right? And so, like, sometimes we get so laser-focused on the uniqueness of this moment. But if we can zoom out and say, no, actually this journey I've been on my whole life, right, I've encountered so many changes, so many challenges, and I've always been able to get through them that can help us to keep things in perspective, too.
Jen Lewi
Yeah, and I would say, to add to that, keep miss what you would call mistakes in perspective, too, because it is a new situation. And, you know, sometimes, you know, if we make a small mistake, that's what it is. It's and it's a learning opportunity. Because you're learning a new culture, you're learning all sorts of new things. And you're, you're gonna stumble every so often, and that's okay.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I like the word stumble better than mistake, because I think it is like, we think often, those of us who are high achievers, perfectionists, you know, people who tend to struggle with impostor syndrome, I think a mistake is catastrophic. And so we'd give ourselves no room for that. But if you think of it as just like a misstep, right, as I'm just trying to find my way, I'm in a situation where I haven't I don't know the route yet. Somebody that took a wrong turn, that doesn't mean that I'm not qualified to be here. It just means that I haven't fully mapped out my, my route yet.
Jen Lewi
Yeah. And I also think that people who have that perfectionist tendency, think that it's a much bigger deal than it is, and they think that people are judging them when people have very likely moved on.
Kim Meninger
Yes, you’re absolutely right. And one thing I would add to that, too, is that when you are the new person, that is the perfect window of time to ask all the questions. You know, we often feel like, oh, no, I don't want to I don't want to ask the question, or people are gonna know that I don't know this yet. Nobody expects you to everyone expects that this is the time when you're going to be learning. So take advantage of it. Ask all the questions, meet all the people do all the things right, you're gonna be that much more confident in the future, if you take advantage of this moment now.
Jen Lewi
Absolutely.
Kim Meninger
Jen, this has been such a great conversation. I am so grateful to you for having it with me. And I have no doubt that this is going to help. You know, everyone listening, where can people find you if they want to learn more about your work in and you know, what you can do to support anyone who's going through something similar?
Jen Lewi
Well, thanks so much for having me Kim. You know, I think that what you're doing and you know, trying to help people understand impostor syndrome is really helpful for folks. So where can you find out more about me? So I'm from Design Your Next Step. That's the name of my company Design Your Next Step.com. And please reach out on LinkedIn. I'm Jen Lewi, j-e-n-l e-w-i on LinkedIn. And I'm happy to connect with people and talk more about all this.
Kim Meninger
Great, well, I will make sure those links start make sure those links are in the show notes as well. And thank you again, Jen. This has been such a pleasure.
Jen Lewi
Thank you, Kim.