In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about leadership. Being a people leader is hard! It’s especially hard in a rapidly changing world where there is so much more to think about and so much less time available to us. My guest this week is Scott Allen, a management professor and leadership consultant who talks about what he refers to as the puzzle of leadership. Here we explore the challenges facing current leaders and how to approach them through curiosity and experimentation. Scott also shares three important action steps all people leaders should take to build their confidence and maximize their effectiveness. And, finally, we talk about some options to consider if you’re working for a difficult boss.
About My Guest
Scott J. Allen, Ph.D., is an award-winning educator passionate about working with people at all levels and across industries. He serves as an instructor in SMU’s Cox School of Business Executive Education and spent more than 18 years as a professor of management. His areas of expertise include leader development, the future of work, and executive communication.
Scott has published more than 60 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters. He’s the co-author of several books, including The Little Book of Leadership Development: 50 Ways to Bring Out the Leader in Every Employee; Emotionally Intelligent Leadership: A Guide for College Students; Discovering Leadership: Designing Your Success; and Captovation: Online Presentations by Design. Scott hosts Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders, ranked among the world's top 2.5% of podcasts. Along with the podcast, he publishes a weekly newsletter called The Leader's Edge.
Scott frequently serves as a keynote speaker. In addition, he consults, facilitates workshops, and leads retreats across industries. Recent engagements include Lubrizol, Key Bank, Progressive, Nestle, EY, Siegfried Group, Dallas Area Rapid Transit, Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Sherwin Williams, Whiting-Turner, Toyota Motor North America, Lexus, Gee Automotive, Crestron, NASA-Glenn, Elbit America, Oatey, Dominion/Enbridge, Endeavor Energy Resources, TransAlta, FedEx Custom Critical, Thompson Hine LLP, Nordson, and Cleveland Clinic.
Scott served on the board of the International Leadership Association, Association of Leadership Educators, and Management and Organizational Behavior Teaching Society. He was named an ILA Fellow by the International Leadership Association in 2021.
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Connect with Scott:
Website: https://www.scottjallen.net
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Scott, welcome, Scott. It's so great to have you here, and I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Scott Allen
Well, I really, really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so very much. So what can I tell you about me? So? So my wife and I, we have twin girls. They're 14. Our son is 16, so we're kind of in this space, and our, our parenthood journey. Spent 17 years as a full professor of management at a small university in Northeast Ohio called John Carroll University, taught leadership and management skills, Future of Work, executive communication, and have, more recently, kind of moved to more of a full-time role when it comes to helping organizations. And so those organizations might be large Fortune 500 organizations, or they might be a small nonprofit in my community in Northeast Ohio. And gosh, what else can I tell you? I collect media rights. So that's kind of fun. Not media rights like as in the media, but Meteor rights from like space, and, you know, to hold something that's four and a half billion years old that it has some stories. It's been on a journey. And so anything I can do to collect you might see one behind me right now, you know. And so it was a weird night when I looked at my wife and I said, Can I do you mind if I spend a few $100 on a meteorite. She said, What? But she's indulged me. So that's a little bit, you know, including the quirks. That's a little bit about me.
Kim Meninger
Fascinating. I love that you say that about the journey that it's been on a, you know, you don't really think about that, but that is amazing. And you mentioned helping organizations. What are the kinds of things that you're helping them with? What are them with? What are you seeing out there today?
Scott Allen
Oh, that's a great question. So you know, if I were to go to some just consistent themes having difficult conversations, how do we how do we create a culture of accountability? How do we balance the needs to be empathetic and really work with our employees to whether it's work from home or work from anywhere, provide that flexibility, yet also balance that with, hey, we need you to do your job, and there needs to be some structure. And so that continues to be something that I'm kind of seeing a lot. I think a lot of leaders are so time-starved that another theme that I'm noticing is that it's difficult for them to prioritize that relationship-building. You know, there's this kind of hidden task list for leaders. You have the task list and that's all the stuff that's coming in, but that hidden task list is really, truly building relationships with your team. Really, truly get to know, getting to know your team. And that takes time, and that requires a genuine, authentic interest in others and building relationships. And so I think I also see that right now, it's just get to the work, get to the work. Get to the work. And if we're not building those relationships and helping others see that we care, we want them to develop. We want them to learn. We want them to grow. You know, people are going to jet quick as soon as the culture isn't something they're interested in participating in. So I'm seeing some of that, that's, that's consistent, and then the last thing I'll say right now is just, you know, as you know, the context is shifting, and the context is always shifted, but the context is shifting, whether that's again, work from home, work from anywhere, multi-generational workforce, whether that's Some political instability, there's just any number of digitization, globalization, any number of shifts that are occurring. And so that problem-solving in this, this environment of complexity, that's another thing that a lot of organizations are wanting to talk about, is, how do we problem solve in this context? Because no one's really led through a pandemic. And so what do we do? How do we do that work? No one's led through massive digitization like we're experiencing. So how do we do that work?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and we are in really interesting times. And I think, you know, we always think our moment in history is the most consequential, but we have been through a lot. I mean, I think the pandemic was certainly an extraordinary event that changed a lot about our workplaces and has created a lot of new conversations about the relationship between humans and their work, right? And so you mentioned the work from anywhere, work from home. What are you seeing out there in terms of ongoing debate, like, are you finding that there are trends towards going back to the office? Are you seeing more people digging in and saying, we're not going to go back to that? Like, what do you…
Scott Allen
All over the map. All Over the Map. I mean, there's, there's organizations that really want to have that control and want. To see people in the cubicles and in the offices, and really believe that the only way we can do this work is to build a team here and now, and that's how we work, all the way to other fairly large Fortune 500 organizations that have embraced it. They say, You know what, this has opened us up to a talent pool that's literally global at this point, and we can do it, and we can make it work, and we can still build teams. Those organizations are using that as a differentiator. So it's interesting. It's, it's really kind of all across the board. And then you have this middle group, which is, you know, hey, we're in the office, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. That's when some of our meetings are, Monday, Friday, or some other specific day, it might just be one day that you can work from home. So then there's kind of this middle ground that exists, and I kind of view it just as another puzzle. If, if you are going to do work from home, kind of 100% how do we build team? How do we really facilitate that, that work is still happening, that we have those relationships, that they exist. Some of these, I oftentimes, will hear things like, you know, it's hard because we can't just kind of pop into someone's office and have a conversation, you know? Well, you're gonna have to solve for that. You're gonna have to work through that. How do we onboard people in this new environment? You're gonna have to solve for that and work through that. Those are just puzzles. That's all they are. And so I really see it happening all across many, many different ways people are approaching that. Yes.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I think the way you talk about is just solving for that. I think a lot of people have a fixed mindset, especially when they're in a state of anxiety or uncertainty about the future. It's like, No, this is the way we've done things. I want to go back to what's familiar to me, right? They can't they perhaps lack imagination, or it's just they're not in a place in their brain where they can imagine possibilities.
Scott Allen
Yes, yes. And again, I love that phrasing that you just shared. I mean the fixed mindset, growth mindset. Look, you know, we could say, as soon as we're not building team in the same way when we're work from home, we could say, this doesn't work. Or you could say, we haven't figured out the recipe yet. We I don't feel the sense of team. We're not there yet. And then stay in that place of a growth mindset of we probably there's experiments we could run to see if we can move the needle. It may not feel like we're together and what it used to feel like, but we definitely can try some interventions. Maybe, you know, some of the groups I'm working with, we're bringing people together twice a year, face-to-face for four or five days, making that investment. That's how we really connect and bond. So there's different experiments that are being run, but that's kind of that decision-making in this VUCA complex environment, we're going to be running experiments to see if we can move the needle and experiments to see if we can move closer to what our, our desired outcome is. And that requires that word yet, which is again associated with that growth mindset.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I like the way you talk about experimenting because I think especially for those of us who may find ourselves with some perfectionistic tendencies, there's this want, the desire to get it perfect right away, as opposed to saying, hey, there's a lot we don't know yet. Let's just do some trial and error, see what works, and make adjustments as we move forward.
Scott Allen
Yes, which requires the leader to be a little bit vulnerable. It requires the leader to turn to the team and make sure that they have the psychological safety to share their input, share their feedback, share what it is that they want. And that's, that's that requires a next-level ability as a leader to create that space where we can elevate the right questions, okay, we're in this new context, and how are we going to do this? I don't have the answer of how to lead in a pandemic or how to build a virtual team that really feels like a high-functioning virtual team, cohesive team. But let's co-create this. Let's figure it out, and you elevate those right questions, create the place of psychological safety where people feel like they can contribute their voice. Because we all know what it feels like when people don't feel that conversation stifled. And then, yeah, ultimately, we're running experiments. That's, that's really what's happening. As soon as you add this element of complexity where there aren't no knowns, there aren't, there's not an authority figure that we can call in the world to say, hey, you know I want to, I want a high functioning team. I got Paul, Mary, Steve and Janet here, Leticia as well. What are the three things we need to do? Well, that, that expertise doesn't exist, you are experimenting, or, to your point, you're staying with a fixed mindset, Oh, can't be done. Can't be done, right? And then that kills culture, right?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point, too. And I want to go down the leadership path because I. Yeah, I still feel, and I actually just read an article about this recently, too, of that leadership, giving people leadership titles is often a reward for good individual performance, as opposed to an, a recognition of actual leadership potential, right? So your, you’re A+ player on the team isn't necessarily going to be, make the best leader, and your B player who maybe struggles with a little bit of confidence and maybe isn't like the rocks are on the team, but has a deep commitment to growing other people and listening and right they would likely be the better leader. But I don't know that we're there yet in terms of how we, how we make these decisions, and especially with the incentive structure because for many people, the only path to promotion is through people management. And so we've got a lot of great task managers out there, but not a lot of great people managers.
Scott Allen
Yes, oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So love this conversation. I was in a, in an event a few weeks ago now in Chicago, and there was a small accounting firm that was some leaders from this firm were talking and kind of talking about the culture that they were creating, and they, they said something that I just loved. They there's a there's kind of a management track and then an expert track, and you could have a future if you chose either one. I mean, again, talk about how to solve for some of these little puzzles. Because, to your point, if the only path forward is that I get into people management but I don't like people, that's problematic. That kills culture. That damages organizations, right? That's just, it's an exercise in futility. And you know, just because Jordan is the best player doesn't mean Jordan's going to be the best coach. That's obvious. And so yes, you have these individuals who really enjoy working with, people, really like developing, people, really want to engage in that work, and then you just have some really wonderful subject matter experts, some high-performing frontline individuals who do incredible work. Maybe they are knocking out of the park when it comes to sales but that old adage, right that the best salesperson does not make the best sales manager. So how do you still create a pathway. And this is a really cool experiment that this organization was running. How do we create paths so that we can get the both end here, and not just the either or? And I think that's just a beautiful way to think about it because you're spot on, and we see the really, you know, the phlebotomist and even if they are a good person and, and want to do the work, the, the additional challenge is that oftentimes we don't truly prepare them to do this totally new job, totally so when you talk about imposter syndrome, syndrome, well, yeah, I mean, that's literally like saying to me, Well, you have a PhD in leadership and management, Scott, go draw blood. We're going to give you a little bit of training, and then you're going to, we're going to put you out there. I would literally hurt people. I would damage veins, right? I mean, it's just silly to think, but it happens in every industry. We have that really incredible tech who is working on cars, and then we make them in charge of other people. Well, that's a new job. That's literally a completely 180 new job. And by gosh, we're going to make sure they're certified as a tech or as a phlebotomist. But now we're now going to unleash this person in a totally new set of tasks with no certification, zero training or very little oftentimes, we might give them in health care their Press Ganey scores, or their quality scores, or maybe help them understand the P and L, but they don't know about designing culture, building teams. I mean, so no wonder people feel like they have imposter syndrome at times, I would feel if you said, Scott, go work on that car. Yes, I will have imposter syndrome.
Kim Meninger
And when you say it like that, it's just so obvious but we don't recognize it and the day-to-day operations and the decision-making that's going on. It's fascinating.
Scott Allen
I mean, it's like, invisible to us, yet it's this very and again, the tragedy here is that when you put that person in a position of authority who doesn't have the skill set, doesn't have the interest in truly working with humans, you know, they kill culture. They just, like, I would kill a patient or hurt a patient if the topic were surgery or piloting, right? You know, they, they kill culture. And then we wonder, you know, Gallup's numbers of there's different, different numbers we could go to, but, you know, generally speaking, two thirds of people are going to work and they're feeling disengaged. Well, yeah, so. We have people who are not skilled or, or even more, don't have the motivation to work with, with others, and but it's their only path. It's the only way forward. So they pretend, they pretend they understand, they pretend they have the answers. They feel like they should have the answers. And so they put a lot of pressure on themselves and avoid saying things like, I don't know. Let's figure it out. What do you think? It and it's it, ultimately, it's, it's damaging. I believe.
Kim Meninger
You’re absolutely right. And I think a lot about the fact that when we are coming from a place of fear or coming from a place of stress, we're not, you know, using the part of our brain where empathy lies, or where season lies, right and so, so you've got a lot of people, even, like you said, those who are motivated, but are, you know, under-resourced or under-trained, and then you put them in this pressure cooker, and the effect that they have on other people is so significant, and so it's, it's one of those things that it really breaks my brain sometimes to think about. Because again, the problem feels obvious in many ways, but the solutions feel so elusive because companies just continue to demand more of fewer resources. And like you had said earlier too, relationships are so important, yet people are finding it hard to prioritize it time-wise, and, and so if all you're doing is just adding to people's plates and keeping the pressure on them, even the, the highest potential leaders are going to struggle to be effective.
Scott Allen
Yeah, yeah. And, that and, and even just as tragic at times, is that they're going to feel afraid, maybe to ask for help, or afraid to say, I don't know, or afraid, because now again, remember, this is the one path forward. So if this doesn't work, well, what happens? Well, I'm going to have to move the Pittsburgh because I don't no one else in this area will hire me, and I don't want to move to Pittsburgh. So, oh, no. And then it spirals. People stay safe, people don't ask. People struggle. And ultimately we set a faction of people up to fail.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And so are there? I mean, obviously, there are no simple answers to these questions, so I'm just curious what your thoughts are on things that we as individuals might be able to control in those types of situations. Does it? You mentioned safety, which is so important. Do you think it's worth people you know thinking about taking the risk of having a conversation with your manager, like, what do we do to try to manage ourselves in these types of situations?
Scott Allen
Yes, the question is even hard. So a couple ways to think about some of this. Okay, a couple ways to think about this conversation. So as soon as someone takes on a position of leadership or authority within an organization, I think and, and these might sound a little bit unreasonable, but I can't think of anything better, right? I mean, what makes a great leader? They are a learner. They are someone who's curious, there's someone who's constantly trying to, to better their craft. So as soon as you take on a position of leadership, are you doing something like listening to podcasts like this? Are you reading books? Are you listening to the Leadership Challenge or the book Mindset by Carol Dweck? What are you doing to truly learn this new job? You know, you're now someone who builds teams and solves puzzles. Well, what are those people do? And so you, in any way, shape or form, doing that, learning and prioritizing, carving out that time. And Stephen Covey would call it quadrant two time, that stuff that is important but not urgent. Well, are you blocking at least an hour a week to learn? Are you arming yourself with some thinking partners? So I always provide this example. I have. I have a psychologist that I've talked with for 17 years, not because my life is falling apart, but because he helps me thrive, and he is an individual that I speak with every two weeks, and he helps me make sense of situations, gets stuff out of my head. I also have a mentor. I went on a walk this morning, and I spoke with him from eight to 9 am and he has been a huge help in my growth and development. I also just have some mentors in the community that I touch base with on certain topics. So who is your team? My wife and I walk every morning at 5:30 am and she's on my team. So who are those individuals that you can turn to? And this isn't to bitch or to complain or to whine, it's to help you make sense and help you problem solve, help you think about your options that someone out of your head. So A, are you learning? B, are you arming yourself with some of those thinking partners, and then C, have you built the confidence to say, I don't know, and that might be to your supervisor, that might be to your peers, that might be to your team, but it's kind of holding this space of confidence and humility. I don't have all of the answers, but together, I'm sure we can come up with the best path forward. So I'm confident in that statement, but I'm also humble and staying in a place of curiosity in that statement as well. And do you at least have the confidence to say, I don't know, or what do you think, or what are our options? And I think having that team, your team, on your side, because you're modeling a little bit of vulnerability, and having the confidence to say among your peers. You know, I'm brand new to this, tell me what, and then fill in the acronym. Right? Most people just sit there and nod and pretend like they know what the hell is going on and they don't, right? So are you confident enough to say and kind of standing in that space confidently, and you're going to learn a heck of a lot more quickly than if you pretend. Because again, I think we walk into those situations sometimes and feel like with every fiber that we should know that we are inadequate when that's a that is such a tall order. And hopefully, your thinking partners can help keep you grounded in some of that self-talk, but then you're also prioritizing some of that learning. So those are three considerations, right?
Kim Meninger
Those are great. I think those are very practical too. And I love the way you talk about the confidence to say I don't know, because I think a lot of times people think that's an unconfident thing to do, right? It's like confidence means I come in with a show of strength, and I'm in command of everything, as opposed to being able to say and my, my definition of confidence is really trusting that I can handle it right, not needing to know the answer to everything, not needing to know everything ahead of time, but trusting that I have the capacity to handle it. And so with the support of my team and with the ability to ask for help, right? That you will figure it out. And I think that that is a better way of thinking about confidence than the blustery kind of charismatic form of confidence that we often see that is really more so a mask for insecurity than anything else, right?
Scott Allen
100%. 100% and then, you know, I think the other thing here would also just be, how are, you know, all of these are ensuring that you're somewhat performance ready. So I have a team I'm learning, I'm modeling vulnerability because as soon as we are confronted with complexity, no one person has the answer that does that's not a thing. So quit setting yourself up to feel like you should have the answer because that's not a thing. And then, how am I set how am I taking care of myself, and what are those boundaries that I have so that this is sustainable? Because, again, as we've discussed, I mean, what's being asked of individuals right now is pretty Herculean. [Yeah.] If we don't carve out that time to protect our own health, carve out that time to protect our own prioritization of speaking with mentors and some of these thinking partners, the system will eat you up if we let it. And so having that time blocked and building up that resilience, I almost think of it like layers of defense, like armor, in a sense, okay, I've got I'm learning that's helping me. I've got thinking partners that's helping me. I'm staying healthy that's helping me. I'm, I'm modeling vulnerability and kind of building that, that relationship with my team that's going to help me. So how are you arming yourself?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm always asking, What can we personally control? Right? Because there's some [Yes] your culture and environment that we can't and so these are things that are directly within our control. And, and I wonder if you have thoughts on somebody working for an insecure manager, like, is there anything that you can do to navigate that situation a little bit more productively? I know at a certain point, people need to make the decision, do I stay, or do I go? Or, you know, is this the right place for me? But short of that, are there things that you would recommend people do to try to support their manager?
Scott Allen
Okay, okay, so this is a great question. This is one of those puzzles that's, that's all this is, is the puzzle I'm working with a difficult manager, a difficult employee, a difficult Colleague. So again, I go to learning. I might explore Crucial Conversations. I might explore other resources that are out there, that exist. I'm going to go to my thinking partners, for sure, and I'm going to say to them, Look, I got this going on, and I have done this. I several conversations between Phil and I were revolved around, you know, individuals in my sphere, and that could have been a supervisor, it could have been a colleague, but that was an individual. And then some of my mentors having conversations, and they were serving as thinking partners about, okay, how do I navigate this? What do I do, right? So I kind of go back to the reason for those first three things, or those things that we just talked about as being so incredibly important, because you can brainstorm with your thinking partners, and then, ultimately, to your point, you might come to the, to the look. I've experimented with this. I tried this. I tried a difficult conversation. I tried just ignoring it. I tried a workaround. I ran all these experiments, and this person isn't going to budge. You know? Then, then a conversation might be, is this the context for me? And that's not a fun conversation to have, but it's another conversation to have. So the first thing I try and do is get it out of my head. It's going to eat me up, if I unless I really kind of start helping and seeking out that help from others. I've had also confidence in organizations where I've said to a colleague, look, you seem to be getting through to we'll just say, Carl, you seem to be getting through to Carl, I'm not like commiserating here. I'm just trying to learn. What are you doing that's helping you get these things approved or get on, on, on his radar? Because I'm not succeeding at that right now and again. This isn't like, uh, I'm going to commiserate with you. I hate Carl. This is, uh, help me problem solve here. You seem to be doing a good job of it. So I think I'm back to that place of experimentation. I'm back to that place of thinking partners. I'm back to that place of boundaries. If it's kind of a toxic situation, what are your boundaries and what? What realistically will you put up with and not? [Yeah.] So those are a couple ways I think about the, the difficult boss, right?
Kim Meninger
Well, and you know, once again, I love the practicality of what you're saying, but also reminding people, especially high achievers, who put a lot of pressure on themselves to do everything by themselves, right, to not go it alone.
Scott Allen
Yes, yes. Because going again feeling like you should have all the answers, feeling like you should go it alone, not setting boundaries, and being Superman or Superwoman, those are all, in my opinion, not sustainable and, and it's gonna it's they're just, it's a harder road. So I always kind of enter the place of leadership in a little bit of a different spot, with this thing about who is your board or who are your thinking partners, are you actually learning about the new job you have? Same thing happens in parenting, by the way, you know, people may read what to expect or get through the first, you know, three chapters, and then we all just wing it. Well, why is there dysfunction in society? We're all winging it. There's really good research about what really great parents do. It's, it exists. None of us have learned it. So then you get to, like social learning theory, Albert Bandura, and what's being modeled in the home. Well, it isn't always the healthiest of stuff. So then that enters society. And, you know, it's just, it's fascinating, this thing we got going on here, we gotta fix it.
Kim Meninger
That’s so true. The human experience is so complicated. I think about that all the time too, when it comes to conflict management and communication. Like, how many of us grew up in homes with really great role models for conflict? Medically?
Scott Allen
Exactly, no. Oh, boy like the plague.
Kim Meninger
Oh my gosh, I could talk to you all day. Scott, I love this conversation so much. But in the interest of time, for people who are listening to you and want more of your great work and want to connect with you, where can they find you?
Scott Allen
Sure, so two places, Scott J Allen dot net so that's the website, and then you can learn a little bit more about my work there. And then another one would be just LinkedIn. Scott J Allen on LinkedIn, and I'm active on LinkedIn, always again posting. I just love the puzzle of leadership. You know, how do we better prepare people to serve in these roles? Because they're hard. They're not easy. So, anyone who wants to have that conversation, I'm always in because I find the, I find it fascinating, and I think we can do a lot better. I think we can do a lot better on many fronts. So I appreciate it.
Kim Meninger
Thank you so much, Scott, this has been fantastic.
Scott Allen
Of course, of course. Take care. Be well.