In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about hidden leaders. Hidden leaders, according to my guest, Ali Wilson, possess traits that make them great leaders but, paradoxically, also keep them from reaching higher levels of leadership. Here we discuss the ways in which we overvalue confidence, and even narcissism, which holds hidden leaders back. We also explore ways that hidden leaders can emerge from the shadows. Ali also offers one of my favorite reframes of impostor syndrome.
About My Guest
Alison Wilson’s journey from chemical engineering to executive coaching has been driven by a passion for unlocking leadership potential in those who may not see it in themselves.
In every organization she has worked with, she has come across talented leaders who feel trapped in roles below the level of their capability and ambition. She has come to realize that for many, the traits that keep them stuck are the very same traits that ultimately make them exceptional leaders. It's a paradox that harms everyone, leading to organizations where the most capable people are not the decision makers and results are delivered in spite of leadership, not because of it.
She has developed the Hidden Leaders program to empower these individuals to recognize their talent, amplify their impact and progress to the leadership roles where their true potential can be realized.
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Connect with Ali:
Website: https://www.hidden-leader.co.uk/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Ali, I'm so excited to talk with you today. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Alison Wilson
Thank you, Kim. I'm really looking forward to it too. So my name is Allie Wilson. And I currently work as an executive coach. But I started my career a long time ago, as an engineer, a chemical engineer, so very different area. And I worked in kind of technical roles for most of my early career for, for big companies. But through that time, I became I enjoyed the technical side of the work, but I became increasingly interested in people and people leadership. So I worked in manufacturing. And often in manufacturing, you start managing teams quite early in your career. And I also moved between some big companies, big organizations, multinational companies, like Procter and Gamble, GlaxoSmithKline, that I kind of thought on paper would feel similar would, would because they were similar size, they worked in kind of similar technical areas, they were recruiting from a similar pool of graduates. And actually, I was really surprised at how culturally different those places felt. And that kind of just sparked a real interest in me about leadership and how the way someone shows up as a leader can just have this phenomenal impact on the whole organization. So as I progressed through my career, and I moved into more senior leadership positions, I followed up on that, and I did actually train as a coach. And I pursued it to begin with, because I was interested. But what I found was, it had actually a phenomenal impact on my own career. So going through the process of training, as a coach, I obviously had a lot of coaching, I thought about things in a different way. And I somehow realized through that process that I had all these options in front of me that just hadn't been able to see before. And so I came back, my plan was to work as a coach after I qualified, but I actually was offered a more senior job in another technical role. And I very quickly progressed and became chief operating officer for that company, which before I had done, my coach training would have, you know, just felt out of reach, that wouldn't have been something that was on the radar for me at all. And I loved it, I had a fantastic time. But about a year ago, I made the decision to come back to coaching because the people leadership, people development, that's always been a huge part of it for me. And I also noticed this, this phenomenon that I now call hidden leaders, which is something that I had observed in the organization that I was leading. And when I reflected on it, I realized I had seen it all through my career, I had experienced it myself. And the kind of curiosity around that. And the sense that I wanted to do something to impact leadership, I just feel the world is changing. Business needs to change, is changing. The leadership we need is changing. And this concept of hidden leaders just it captured my imagination, and I couldn't let it go. So for the last year, I've come back to being a coach full time and I now work with hidden leaders in in other organizations.
Kim Meninger
I can't wait to dive into this concept of hidden leaders, how would you define a hidden leader?
Alison Wilson
So the, the short way of defining it is to say it's someone who is actually a gifted leader. But the traits that make them a gifted leader also caused them to be overlooked for promotion. So when I was describing this to someone, he's actually a professional writer, and he was kind of really challenging me to make it clear. And he said, How would I describe it to my seven-year-old son? And I said to him, I would describe it, I would say hidden leaders are like the ninjas in your organization that you probably don't know they're there. But you're gonna miss them when they're gone.
Kim Meninger
I love that. And so what is it about, and I think just from my own experience, I have some sense of what you might be talking about, but I want to hear what you think about what are some of these qualities that get overlooked, but really are sort of superpowers for…?
Alison Wilson
Yeah, 100%. So these people are like the glue in the organization kind of keeping the wheels on everything, making things happen as they need to. So the traits they typically show is that they're very concerned about other people and the kind of health of the organization As a whole, they're very committed to the organization's goal to their team's objectives, they have a huge sense of kind of responsibility. And because of that, they will put the good of the group, the good of the team, the organization ahead of their own self-interest. So these are not the people that are going to be saying, Look at me, look at me, I've had a great idea. They are the people that are going to be in the background. And even if they've had the idea, they're quite happy to step back, make sure other people are getting the opportunity to input they're giving credit to their team, they're very clear about that. And actually, they're motivated by making a difference and making things happen not by their own ego. So that's one part of it, there's kind of drive to do the right thing. And there's real sense of responsibility, and kind of justice and treating people equally and fairly. Another part is, and it's quite linked to the imposter syndrome. Kind of angle on this, but the humility, so the humility to not believe that they know best. So to kind of if something doesn't make sense, that first question will be what am I missing. So they're always looking around for the information that they need to make things make sense. And if it doesn't make sense, typically, they will be looking to themselves as missing something. And that's the reason. So that, that's kind of the key thing. The other kind of trait that I really noticed in people who I've identified fit these characteristics is they tend to be quite innovative and creative, they tend to think quite differently to other people. And I think a large part of that is because they have this curiosity, and their humility and willingness to really listen to other people. And to understand why other people might see things differently to them, they tend to form a very nuanced view of reality, and are very strategic because of that, because they can see connections and patterns and subtleties that people who are more, are quicker to kind of draw a conclusion and believe they're right, will just miss so. And because of that, because they see things better, they tend to come up with better solutions, they tend to see what needs to happen. They, you know, they will be the people that are really understanding what your customer needs are kind of bending over backwards to make sure that the organization is doing what it needs to do to not drop critical things, they will be the person that picks up when one part of the organization is not connecting well with another part and they will take responsibility for fixing that. So yeah, they're kind of these, like, the description for the seven-year-old these ninjas, these incredible people in the organization who have just got their eye on everything, they see what matters and they take responsibility for, for making it making it happen. But they do it all without, without kind of making a big fuss and causing everyone to look at them.
Kim Meninger
What so just so discouraging… I could use any number of adjectives right now listening to you because I've also thought about this from the perspective of confidence. And there's a really great book called Why do so many incompetent men become leaders? Have you seen him?
Alison Wilson
Yes. So it's Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic. Yeah, his research actually is really important in this because he, he did some very thorough research across a huge number of organizations, and sadly concluded not only do the characteristics that make you a good leader, like are they not the same characteristics that make you more likely to be promoted? They're actually like inversely correlated. So actually the worst leader you're likely to be, the more likely you are to get promoted, which is just awful.
Kim Meninger
It's so disheartening to think about and I wonder, you know, I think his research is really helpful in understanding this. I'd love to hear your perspective on this too. Why is there such a disconnect? Why or why do we overvalue the traits of people who do not become good leaders and, you know, effective leaders and undervalue the traits that you're describing?
Alison Wilson
Yeah, I mean, we actually according to his research, we actually overvalue a handful of pretty toxic personality traits like narcissism and overconfidence, which are incredibly damaging to organizations. And the kind of simplest way of explaining it is to say that we confuse confidence for competence. I mean, I have, like this is audio only. So I'll have to describe in words. But a Venn diagram I draw of, and there are so many theories of leadership. But from my own observation, I think the three key traits are competence, courage, or confidence, and humility. And I think what happens is if you, if you have the competence, you know, because we're not necessarily saying that these people who are being promoted are incompetent. But if you have a degree of competence, and you have the confidence, but you lack the humility, you are going to just show up and tell everyone, you're right, you're going to be very, you know, it's very reassuring for people to feel that there's someone here who knows what they're doing. And they don't have to think about it too much, because they've got it. But actually, if you end up working for someone like that, it's like, it's an incredibly difficult situation to be in, particularly if you happen to be someone that does have the humility. So what happens where you have the competence and the humility, but you lack that kind of confidence, that's where you find the hidden leaders. And if you have the humility and the confidence, but you're lacking the competence, that's kind of your Emerging Leader, that's your person who's coming up through the ranks. But the, what happens is that these kind of directive leaders who lack the humility, tend to be the ones that are visible and get promoted. So you end up with this disconnect, where you've then got this imbalance, and you're missing the people that are really making a difference. And what you want is for them to come together and meet in the middle, where there are great leaders who have all of those characteristics in balance, and they can balance the, the kind of confidence with the humility. The other thing I realized is that actually, when you have a humility, you need a lot more courage to speak up. Because you have this nuanced view, you can see all of the shades of grey, you know, it's not black and white, you understand that you probably don't have the, the complete answer. So it's quite difficult to counter someone who's actually not seeing all of that complexity, but it's very confidently telling you, Well, this is the right thing to do. So yeah, it's, it's a dilemma, but it's critical that we understand it more and talk about it and organizations take steps to, to balance this.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. And, you know, I think because I think about confidence a lot. And I actually think that that form of confidence that you're describing is not true confidence, right? Confidence is quiet, true. Confidence is quiet in my mind, right? If you I think their true confidence is it includes humility because if you truly believe in yourself, you know that you don't know everything, and you're not trying to look like the smartest person in the room, right? And it just shows…
Alison Wilson
Exactly. Every 100% It's the kind of courage to be vulnerable, to kind of say what you don't know. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The problem is, of course, if you end up with lots of people who don't have those traits in leadership, then it you know, the people that you're looking up to, you kind of create a culture where within the organization, people feel they have to behave in a certain way in order to progress. That's what leadership starts to look like. And it's actually hugely damaging for organizations because the, the truly good people will often leave or they stay below the radar in kind of, not in the positions that they should be in. And of course, people who have kind of moved to that directive leadership position, they can be supported to become great leaders to develop those other skills. But my sense is, it's much harder to retrofit those skills than it is to build confidence in the people that are already naturally very attuned to the needs of others. And the, the kind of the importance of the collective above the individual.
Kim Meninger
I completely agree with you on that front, too. I feel like in many ways, it, it's a lack of self-awareness on the part of these leaders who don't really feel motivated to make any kinds of changes to themselves, right, because it's other people have the problem.
Alison Wilson
Exactly. And you know, the, the first time I kind of really consciously thought about this was when I read the book by Marshall Goldsmith called What Got You Here Won't Get You There. So it's a very famous book. He's obviously a very well-known executive coach and amazing man, but it just struck me when I was reading. I was just thinking, but this is all common sense. Like surely people in these positions don't need this pointed out to them and it Just like it was a penny dropping slowly, that actually he was talking to the fact that most people who get here, got those trades. So then I started thinking, Well, what about people who've already got the stuff they need to go from here to there, but they can't be the first bit because they're not being supported? And then that's when I started to think, well, actually, yes, I've come across these people. And really, if I'm truly honest about my own career growth, there was a part of that, for me, I definitely believe I was a hidden leader. But once I broke through and made it into leadership positions, my, my success and my, my kind of rapid progression was 100%, built on being able to see these people and help them like, you know, create, get them into the right roles so that our results just massively increased. So I mean, I wasn't doing anything special, other than kind of being able to say, well, this is crazy, like, we're listening to the wrong people. And when I was in a position where I had the authority to kind of make changes in the organization, I was able to restructure things, and typically, the organization performance would massively improve.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I think it's so great that you have that kind of influence. And I worry that you may, you mentioned earlier that a lot of the traits of these, you know, whatever the opposite of a hidden leader is, right, like the, the leaders that are being…
Alison Wilson
Directive leader, I call them, but maybe that's…
Kim Meninger
That's good, you know, the ones who are being rewarded for these other behaviors. Unfortunately, you're right. I think a lot of people view their success as a blueprint. And it becomes like, oh, well, if that's, if I want to be where they are, that's what I need to do. So maybe it becomes a, an incentive to mimic their behaviors. But then also, if you've got people who are hidden leaders who break through this ceiling and get into these positions, and they're surrounded by these other leaders, that can also become a situation where it's like, is it worth, I don't even I don't want the hassle of having to be part of this environment where I have to deal with these big egos. Nobody's listening. Everyone thinks they know everything. Right? So, so to your earlier point, people will often leave, because it's a toxic environment, and they don't want to be part of it.
Alison Wilson
Yeah, 100%. But the one thing I will say, is that this isn't like, you know, it's not a big kind of pity project for, it's about what really works. And so my experience was, yeah, I might not have been particularly popular with some of the things I was saying and doing and people disagreed with me. But I got results. And, you know, once you get results, people listen. And sometimes it's not your peers, it's not even the people one level above you. But somewhere out there, there will be the great leaders, because the directive leaders can get results. And you know, they can stay in position for a long time. But typically, when things are difficult, when they're tricky, when the organization really needs to get behind something, they won't be able to deliver what needs to be delivered. And that's the kind of key message I want any of them who is kind of thinking or maybe I am a hidden leader, because you think what happens is when you are a hidden leader in your head, and you don't know your head, and you think you're deficient, you think to yourself, This doesn't make sense to me, I must be missing something. If I was more senior, I would be able to see what they see. And then this would make sense. And I guess my message would be if you're feeling that, maybe just try considering the fact that you're seeing something other people aren't seeing because you're good at what you do. You're better than you know. You're seeing something because you've got a strength, not a deficiency, and how does that change things? You know, if you knew that you were going to move up a level and see that it was exactly like it looks from where you are right now. What would you do differently? And what conversations would you have? Because like, I've just seen so many times that when people do find the courage to get themselves noticed and to get themselves into the positions that they aspire to be in and they have the capability to do, their impact is phenomenal. And that's what the organization needs, right?
Kim Meninger
Yes. And so I think you, you answered the question I was just about to ask you, which is how do hidden leaders become unhidden? Right? What, what are the steps that individuals listening who think oh, that's me take and does it require doing anything? I mean, I It's always uncomfortable to do new things. But like, I guess what, what would you say about sort of taking a first step here?
Alison Wilson
Yeah, sure. So I do think that actually, if you're quite a reflective person, which I think if you're a hidden leader, you probably are, you're probably thinking a lot, that actually just reflecting on that point that we were just talking about that hang on. If you reframe this as Yeah, you're seeing something different, but you're seeing it because you have a strength and other efficiencies, like asking yourself, okay, well, if I knew that was true, what would I do differently? And you may find that that starts just opening a door, or some ideas for things you could do differently. The other thing I would say is that finding a community like, first of all, recognizing, I really believe this is a thing. They I believe hidden leaders are in the minority, but they are out there, and they are in every single organization. And you know, it can be quite lonely, because my experience was I was kind of saying, This is crazy, when we're not doing the right things this, why are we why are we working in this way? I don't understand it. And all of my friends were kind of saying, like, Why are you worrying about it's not your job, like, just kind of do your job and go home and eat up your life, and I kind of couldn't, and that fueled this feeling of there being something wrong with me. So I do think it's important to realize there are other people out there that see what you see that feel the same way that I have this also this kind of superpower of wanting to make things work better, and being able to see the impact of the bigger community. So finding those people is key. And often they are in senior positions, you know, they will be the people who either have been directive leaders and seen the light, or have been on the same path and broken through. So finding mentors within your organization, people that you actually, kind of when they talk you think they're worth listening to. Sometimes you can't find those people. And again, I've experienced that, even in big companies, I've had a realization looking around, there is no one here that inspires me. So I would say, just look outside of your organization, if you need to, like try and find a community find other places where you can go, where you can talk to people who feel the same. And that's part of I have a community that I run called Hidden Leaders. And that's kind of part of the idea behind that, that recognizing a huge part of this is the feeling of loneliness that that other people don't see things the way you see it. So finding people, you know, maybe a coach or someone who can help you make sense of that. And so you can share your thoughts with someone and give them the space they deserve. And what I find in the community where hidden leaders come together, even though they're working in different organizations, they often recognize the scenarios that they're dealing with. They're talking through the challenges and the thoughts they have about how things could be different. And what you see as these are brilliant people. And when you're surrounded by a team of people who are brilliant, and you're seeing your own thoughts reflected in what they're saying, and you're seeing how awesome they are, it starts to open the door a little bit to you to realize, actually, maybe, maybe that is me too. Maybe, maybe I really am as good as that. And then the other thing I always encourage people to do is to kind of set themselves challenges, you know, maybe you're not going to go in and tell your boss he's wrong straightaway. But, you know, what's one thing you do really want to achieve? And kind of setting yourself that target and having a structured approach for actually working towards it. So and what that starts to do is to create the evidence that you need to really believe in yourself and to build that confidence that you really can 100% do this.
Kim Meninger
I love the idea of community because I think that, especially if you're in an environment where there are more people promoted on these other traits that we're talking about, you might start to think, Oh, my goodness, am I crazy?
Alison Wilson
Yeah, definitely. [Nothing wrong with me.] Well, and even things like the community, you're building around your podcast here. I mean, I wish I had found stuff like this when I was going through it, because suddenly there's people talking your language saying the things that you feel, and you realize, oh, it's not just me, like, but I really am seeing something that's quite, quite rare. And that's valuable. So yeah, it's wonderful podcasts and just other places where you can hear people that are have been on the same journey and have had kind of similar experiences. It can make a huge difference.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. And I have a, I have another question for you. And I'm curious if you were or advice would change or if there's anything that you would add for somebody who might find themselves in a situation where they have a peer on their team, who is more of the Look at me, I'm wonderful variety that we're talking about. And so it feels almost like direct competition for that next opportunity is there, because what you're describing feels like the right approach, but it might also feel like a long game. Right? And so I'm wondering, is there anything that you would add for somebody who feels like they're going head to head with somebody who's on the other team?
Alison Wilson
Yeah, I do think it is about finding the courage to kind of back yourself and speak up and say, Actually, I see it differently. And I have a different view here of what we need to do. And, you know, I talked earlier about my own career trajectory, and how after I did my coach training, things really changed for me. And, one of the key points was I, I had been promoted. And I was working as a chief of staff. And in the organization we were in, it was a private equity-backed organization, it was growing very quickly, we but we had, it was very chaotic. It wasn't structured brilliantly. And my boss was the CEO. And he had this enormous span of control. And it just meant no decisions were being made. And we had a particularly stressful board meeting, and I went to him afterwards. And I said, You need to give me the operation. Because I can run the operation really, really well. And you need to focus on the commercial side, because that's not my area. And at the moment, we're just scattered over everything. And we need to kind of divide this to move forward. And he said to me, no, you're not ready to take on that role. It's too big. Yeah, it's not that's, you know, that's not the right thing to do. And previously, before I had gone through my coach training, that would have hit me like, he was, he was telling me I wasn't good enough. And I would, that would have landed, and I would have believed it. And I would have shrunk. And I would have gone back to my place. And I would have carried on trying to hold it together. But because I had, had done this work, and I've kind of worked through and I, I knew I was right. Like in my heart, I knew I was right. So the next day, I went back to him and I said, You're wrong. Like I can do this. And not only can I do it, I can do it really well. And you need me too. And he said to me, okay, and that's how I got my promotion to the to the C-suite. So I think you're absolutely right. It's not even in a, in a place where you're in competition with someone else. It's, it's about being able to see yourself well, what you truly are, which is gifted and talented. And then to back yourself.
Kim Meninger
Yes. And I wouldn't even take it one step further, because I love what you just said, I often come at this from a place of I always advise people to come at it from a place of service rather than expertise. Because I think if, if we're, if our measure of success is being an expert, we're always going to feel like we're falling short. But if it's more of how can I be of greatest service, which you're describing as a superpower of these hidden leaders, what you're doing what you were doing, when advocating for yourself was not advocating entirely for your own personal gain. you were advertised advocating for what you thought was the best thing for the business. And I think that's [100%] advantage that hidden leaders have that others don't. So if you just mix that with the courage, like you're saying to…
Alison Wilson
That’s a wonderful way to put it because it's not about you like and the whole thing with the hidden leaders. It's never about us. So actually, why does it become about you, when you're talking about you being in a more senior position, you know, as a hidden leader, it like, That's brilliant, what you've just said that because it's so true. It's almost like we have this. Like, we're judging ourselves negatively whatever we try and do. But if we bring exactly that, how can I be of more service? How can I have a greater impact and deliver more value? Yes, that's a really nice way of thinking about it.
Kim Meninger
This has been so incredible, Ali, I love your message. I love this whole concept of hidden leaders. I encourage everyone to connect with you. Where can people find you if they want more of you?
Alison Wilson
So I have a website, which is hidden-leader.com. And on there, you will see links to join my community, you'll see a link to my LinkedIn profile. Yes, I would love to connect with people. And this has been a brilliant conversation. Thank you.
Kim Meninger
Oh, thank you any anything we didn't get to any final thoughts that you want to share before we wrap up?
Alison Wilson
So I do have a thought on impostor syndrome, which is one I'm sure you've had yourself. you've discussed previously on your podcast, so apologies if you had, but it crosses over with the hidden leader thing. I often think when people talk to me about imposter syndrome, what they're describing is a sense of discomfort when people are recognizing them for something that they feel they don't deserve. So, you know, they have this kind of incongruence between and being kind of recognized. And yet, I'm not like, I haven't done anything special, like I've been given this promotion, but I haven't done anything to deserve it, or I haven't done anything special. So the reframe that I have on this is, again, this is maybe just a sign that you're working in your zone of genius. And the stuff that comes very naturally to you and feels like it's not taking a huge amount of effort is actually delivering a result that from the outside is above and beyond what other people could achieve. So rather than immediately jumping to they're just being nice, or they've got some other agenda, just taking it as acknowledgment that what you're delivering is valuable, and it doesn't feel like it's taken much for you to deliver that. Imagine what you could do, if you did decide to apply yourself to it.
Kim Meninger
You know, I love that so much. I absolutely think I think that's brilliant. The idea that because it comes naturally to you, you on the one hand, take it for granted and assume that it's not worthy, whereas in your reframe assume that that is your zone of genius, and there's so much more where that came from. Right. I love it. Great way to wrap up this conversation. Thank you again, Ali.
Alison Wilson
This has been fantastic. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you, Kim.
