In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about building stronger relationships with ourselves. We often think we know ourselves well but, in reality, we’re too busy living and reacting to the demands around us to notice the way our thoughts, feelings and actions influence our experience in the world. My guest this week is Pallavi Srivastava, executive coach and author of the book, Relationship with the Self. In addition to discussing the importance of strengthening our relationships with ourselves, we also talk about how to better understand our inner critics and what to do to manage them more effectively.
About My Guest
With 18 years of supporting people to thrive in their careers and lives as a therapist and coach, Pallavi partners with organizations and leaders to elevate their effectiveness, performance and resilience for sustainable results.
Pallavi's diverse 18+ years of career journey includes closely collaborating with executives in multifaceted roles. In her professional stint 1.0 as a business journalist she worked with CEOs and other c-suite leaders asking tough questions. Her personal experience with burnout inspired her to pivot to stint 2.0 as a workplace well-being therapist. In her present role as CEO of The Wellbeing Ways LLC and a Leadership Coach, Pallavi partners with leaders, scientists and start-up founders on topics like self-leadership, presence, resilience, conflict management, problem-solving, emotional intelligence, etc. She has guided leaders towards their highest potential and sustainable high performance.
Her book 'Relationship with the Self,' underscores her commitment and expertise in fostering self-leadership and thriving. It shows us how we can lean into ‘who we are’ and leverage our values and strengths to create success and fulfillment. Pallavi has coached leaders across the world and industries for over 1000 coaching hours and with results that have earned consistent re-engagement of her services.
Pallavi is credentialed by the International Coaching Federation as an Associate Certified Coach (ACC) and is certified by the Co-Active Training
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Connect with Pallavi:
Email for coaching or workshop engagement queries: pallavi@thewellbeingways.com
Website: https://thewellbeingways.com
Book Links:
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Pallavi. It is such a pleasure to have you here, and I am really excited to dive in. I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Pallavi Srivastava
Thank you, Kim, and thank you for having me over this podcast. I am Pallavi Srivastava, and I am founder and CEO of the well being with LLC. I'm an executive coach. I am very involved with a non-profit called Women in enterprise of science and tech. I'm on the advisory board. I just wrote a book which is called relationship with the self and actionable inputs towards your personal growth. What I don't know how much, but, you know, I have had an quite an interesting journey. So this is not my first professional is instinct, and I started with, like, about 1818, and a half years ago, as a business journalist with a degree in psychology and a degree in business administration, so I had all that, and I loved writing, so I decided, oh, I should go and become a business journalist. And I had lot of fun first few years, but then I really burnt out bad, and I had to, one day, just walk out. I could not take it. I tried leaving but all these expectations around work, society and our identity and, and so but that burnout really set me on a different path. I took an ear off, I went back, studied more on psychology, did a lot more training, just to kind of figure out what was going on with myself. And once I had that and I had that recovery, I realized this is what I want to do. So I became a therapist. This is all back in India. I was in India at that time, and so I became a therapist with a lot of focus on well-being both professional and personal, and that's what I was doing for about seven, eight years when I met a very old friend. Was at that time going through coach training, and she was like, I need more hours to practice. Will you help? I'm like, always happy, and I raise my hand. She worked with me, and that was amazing. She was just in training, just starting out, but I think just that skill of coaching, the way it helped me look at myself, understand myself, was just I, I would say mind-blowing, in a way, because I always thought I know myself, so, especially after The burnout, after being the therapist. It just but that deeper understanding, also from a space of looking forward, what do I want in my life, and then aligning my action in the present towards what I want, right? It just changed a lot of things for me personally in that short period of few months of training that she coaching, that she did with me, and I realized that's now, this is what I want to offer to the people that I work with. And I got trained as a coach, and you know, I've been doing now I am a full-time coach, and really enjoying doing that. I moved to the US to Cambridge about three years ago, and that's when I incorporated my company here again, and I got retrained here with CTI, the Co-active Training Institute. And I'm having a lot of fun working with people on their journey.
Kim Meninger
I love it, and I love what you talk about in your own journey of getting to know yourself, because I think we assume that we know ourselves because we live with ourselves all the time. But I joke right? Like, who's asking themselves questions like, Who am I? Right? We are so busy, focused on our to-do lists and all of the demands from the people around us, we are not, generally speaking, most of us taking time for deeper reflection, and so I think resources, whether it's coaching, whether it's journaling on our own, anything that we can do to better get to know ourselves is so powerful and so important, especially in a world where there's just so much over-stimulation, so much noise, so much anxiety, right? So I love that that was your experience that led you to want to provide that support to others.
Pallavi Srivastava
Yes, no, absolutely. And you know, when you were saying that, there was this metaphor that came to my mind, how we talk about how we are not listening to each other, really just hearing the words right? In workplace, people talk about this and, and people are saying that how important it is to really, truly listen, not just hear the words. People talk about this in relationships and professional situations. And I'm thinking, or at least that's what like I think, How often are we actually listening to ourselves? Because of what you said, there's so much noise, there's so much chaos, there's so much going on, that sometimes we can fall into the habit of just hearing ourselves and not really deeply listening.
Kim Meninger
I'm so glad you said that too because that's one of my personal, I would say personal journeys. But also one of my missions to help other people do is to not just accept at face value what we're telling ourselves, and to not just kind of brush past it, but to actually examine it, to actually slow down, push the pause button and say, Hold on a second. What am I? What am I really saying to myself right now, yeah, Where's this coming from? How does it serve me, right? Like, is this true? Whose voice is this, right? And so, so I would love to talk a little bit more about your book too because I know that's a big part of it. And I wonder if you could first of all share a little bit about what inspired you to write it.
Pallavi Srivastava
Oh, yeah. I mean, I have an interesting story. I would probably share this story. So while, and this is, this started while, there was a period where I was doing back in India, therapy and coaching both. So it was a mix. My practice was a mix of both, depending upon who I was working with. And so I was seeing a lot of theme, or noticing a lot around how people are looking at themselves, thinking about themselves, feeling about themselves, and most importantly, what are their behavior towards themselves. And then I was working with this particular client. He was in his early 20s, and, you know, so young, very ambitious, wanting to do a lot of things for himself, high achiever. And it was just shocking to hear someone like that talk about how disappointed they are in themselves, how they are never meeting their expectations, and how harsh their thoughts were about themselves and, and it kind of goes on session after session. And then I want to ask, you know, like, how do you want if you're sharing all this with your girlfriend, how do you want her to respond to you right now? And he was like, I of course want her to be kind and supportive. And tell me that's how these things are not true. And remind me, what are the things I've done well and things like that? And I said, What if she does not do that? And what if she's like, Yeah, you are this because this is what you deserve because you are not working hard enough. And you know, that's what. Why else would you fail like that? That would not be nice. That's not a healthy relationship because that's not why I expect. And I say, Yeah, but what are you giving yourself then? And, and it's not something that I thought about it. It's just something that happened in the conversation. And I remember like his words were like, Oh my God. I didn't ever think about it like this, like I'm constantly seeking kindness, and you know, all this treated being, wanting to treat it with respect, love, affection, compassion, understanding, all these things I'm seeking from other people, which is nothing wrong with that, but I am so not ever. I never thought about offering that to myself, or I never even realized that I'm not doing that for myself and, and he was like, Oh, I cannot even imagine what life would be like if I am have a warmth for myself, if I create that, if I create that understanding like another voice, you know, being supportive of me, so how, how different that would be. So that's how, just after that session, I was like, wow, that is really about relationship with self. That was the first time I thought about it. And then from there, one thing led to other, you know, and I was like, another thing is, I tried to research a little bit more on this, and I realized there is not much content on the subject, on relationship with self as a whole. So, so I was like, why not?
Kim Meninger
So what is your big lesson from this experience, right? Like, when it comes to our relationships with ourselves, like, what are the big things that we're missing?
Pallavi Srivastava
I think the biggest thing that we are missing, or we don't focus on, is our behavior towards ourselves, and I think it's so easy. So there are three components of relationship that I talk about, especially in context with self is, how am I seeing myself or perceiving myself so my thoughts and beliefs, how am I feeling about myself? So, compassion, kindness, you know that. And then how, what is my action or my behavior towards myself? How am I treating myself? A lot of times. Because that gets unnoticed. And that was even just writing, the process that the process of writing that for my book, helped me look at, for, you know, those things for myself. And so what, what I mean by what is my behavior towards myself is like, let's say, you know, there's a leader who as or as a person, you worked really hard on a project for your job. You put in long hours, you worked really hard, you, you really stretched out of your comfort zone, and you expected a certain outcome, and it didn't happen. Right? What happens to you, then it's again. So it's human to have some rejection, to have some sadness, to feel low, that's, that's human. But does it stop there or, or does and, and you talk about imposter syndrome a lot, so it relates with that, and some more or so does that stop after having that initial emotional reaction? Or what's the conversation that goes on in your head when that happens, when life is not going the way you want? Are you go on saying, I deserve this, I don't have it me in me, you know, that's why this happened. Or do you start doubting your capabilities. You feel like other people are better than you. So when this is the kind of conversation that starts happening, and you start thinking that probably I am, you know, that's where I am shitty, or I didn't do well enough, when you start separate, taking those feelings and thinking of them as facts. And then what do you do? You probably if, and this is an example, you hold yourself back. And you say, maybe next time I should not take on challenging projects, maybe I should not work. So you see this, it's slowly turning into your action, yes, of holding yourself back. And what I like to give a good example, which, which, you know, people can use, and it helps a lot, is thinking of it. I read about it somewhere online that Buddha says, don't shoot the second arrow. And he said he talks about that in life, you cannot avoid first arrow. So if you're living a human life, you and your working and in your personal life, you would fail. You will make mistake. Things would not go your way. That's the first arrow we cannot avoid the first arrow, right? But then when that happens, how do I treat myself and I fail? Do I become a failure? Right? When I lose? Do I, am I a loser? There's a difference. I can fail without becoming a failure. I can lose without becoming a loser. And I think that's, that's the part where action towards self comes and plays a very important role blaming versus taking responsibility, setting boundaries, right? You work with a lot of people in the corporate space, you would understand how important it is to set boundaries and like, that's the other thing I wrote about in the book, but that that's also something that shows up a lot in my work, and I just find it surprising how people have a strong instinct against setting boundaries, right? Yes, yeah. And so it's a journey to understand that, and they think, Oh, how will they be perceived if you're successful leader at the top, and now you need to set boundaries of how you know, there's work, there's life, there are things you feel like, oh my god, I might be seen as, you know, not committed, not responsible, and all that comes up. So that's a need that you have, that's, that's a behavior towards yourself? No, I deserve to set these boundaries. So yeah. So for me, the action towards self were most revealing in the process of writing the book.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and it makes so much sense how these different components build on each other, right? So, like you're saying, it could either be that I choose not to take the risk in the first place because I tell myself that I'm not worthy of it, I'm not ready for it, I'm not capable of it. Or I take the risk, it doesn't go well, and then I say, See, I never should have done that, and I'm now going to play small going forward, and each action that follows shapes the narrative that we hold about ourselves, and so we just keep reinforcing it, and we look at the world through that filter.
Pallavi Srivastava
Absolutely, absolutely and, and in that moment, that filter looks like the reality. Mm. Hmm, it's so hard to even think that there are different filters.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that's when you talk about, like your feelings being facts, right? It's like it just feels obvious to us. No, that's just the truth, right? As opposed to, that's a feeling that I have in this moment, and that often those feelings, often those thoughts, are self-protective [yeah] it can be counterintuitive, right, but that usually there, there's a, there's a purpose behind them.
Pallavi Srivastava
Yeah pointing to that, that protective piece.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, say more about that.
Pallavi Srivastava
Yeah, you know, because, again, we so when people start initially working towards these harsh voices, one in including the one of an imposter voice within ourselves. And I think before I progress more talking about voices, I just want to say a little bit about how we are always talking with ourselves in our head. We're always thinking. We're always commenting in what we are doing about what's going on in our life. And those thoughts, we hear them like voices, whether we realize that or not. You know, that's how humans work. So, so now that I've set up a little bit context for the voices I feel like imposter syndrome can for people who face that. It's kind of a voice that becomes very, that has become loud, probably or, or at least has a significant voice in your head. And what I was saying was, I'm that I'm glad that you pointed out that is productive protective is because when people first realize, oh, they have an imposter syndrome, they think instinctively to shun that voice. Oh, that's a bad thing about me, right? And what happens when you do that, you start an internal war. Now the imposter voice is like, I'm gonna know proof. So it gets louder, and you're like, I wanna and you feel like, what's going on? Like I was, I thought I was making progress with this. I was collecting evidence against her. And now suddenly this one thing happened, unexpected thing in life, and I've now this voice is screaming at its top in so instead of doing that, if you bring empathy and kindness, which can feel very hard to a mean voice in your head, you know, but if you bring that empathy and kindness and that wanting to really deeply listen, you would find out it's, it's a protector. It's probably just scared that you will let yourself down. Yes, you will not meet your expectations or other people's expectations. So it's just scared, and it thinks that if it keeps reminding you that you don't have high expectation of yourself that you can avoid all that heartbreak when you fail.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I'm so glad you said that because I definitely think that it's rooted in fear, right? It's, it's rooted in fear. And to your point, if I tell myself this, then I embracing myself against external, you know, feedback that says I'm not good enough, right? Like now I'm protecting myself from, from that, or I'm protecting myself from even putting myself in a position of finding out, because I've already convinced myself that it's not worth the risk. And so I do think, when you think about a voice as being critical. It's hard to be compassionate towards it, but if you think about a voice as being afraid [yeah] it's easier to show empathy and support to it, you know, just as we would to a child that's, that's fearful, right? We're not going to try to kick the child…
Pallavi Srivastava
You know, um, since I also have this therapy background and what I notice often, if you dig a little deeper, you probably picked that imposter voice sometime in that early years of your life, right? Probably a parent who was trying to be protective, at least in Asian cultures, it's a thing you always say, you know, you don't praise the success as much. You tell them all the things they're doing wrong. They think that's the way to succeed. So like you probably had a parent or a teacher or other adults around and somewhere in those formative years, anytime from early childhood to up to, you know, you become an adult, you are even more impressionable. So you build these defense mechanisms. So another thing that I noticed that when that shows up in imposter syndrome, voice shows up in my work with a client, often it's, it's got that child. Like teenager, like, you know, quality to it.
Kim Meninger
That's a really good point. And I think, you know, when we talk about that being a protective mechanism and a fear-based voice, it makes sense, because when we're children, we don't have power, right? And so we don't have the same even capacity for reason that we have as adults. And so we're trying to make sense of our worlds. We're trying to keep ourselves safe. We're trying to make sure that we can trust the people that are responsible for our safety, right? And so that's where a lot of these voices and these messages develop. And then we don't going back to the relationship with self, re-examine them later. We don't stop and say, Oh, that helped me survive my childhood but do I still need that thinking as an adult.
Pallavi Srivastava
You read my mind. So that's what that's very important part in the book that I do you know, talk about again, is that that worked. Probably that protection worked when you were so young you needed feel safe, great. So you probably had a conscious or unconscious kind of agreement with this voice, that you will protect me and so that I will have my expectations and check and we'll stay safe and will survive. But now I'm a 40-year-old woman, or, you know, the person that I'm working is a 48-year-old man, or, like we are, it is, and we are totally capable of fake, you know, handling when we fail. Yes, we are totally capable of handling heartbreak, it will hurt. It will hurt if you fail, if you put a lot of work into something and it didn't go the way you wanted it to go. You know, if you love someone passionately and they don't reciprocate it, you will have some kind of heartbreak pain. But as adults, we also know how to move forward beyond that, right? We are safe, we can take care of ourselves, and then we have support that we have, we understand that as an adult. And so that's the redesign I talk about in a book where I gave like exact steps of when these kind of voices start, you first make them realize, look great you did a great job for a certain period of time. But this is not what's working for the adult me, when I am, you know, leading a company, I have this big startup, and if I constantly have you telling me to have low expectation? How am I, you know, gonna meet expectation, or how am I gonna even shoot for the things that I'm supposed to shoot for as leading this company, so my priority and my needs as an adult could be thriving and not surviving, and I embrace failing, and I embrace the risk, you know, so I am going to handle this, and I want what, what's a new role you would want to have? Like, yeah, also you, you go step by step, first you listen, then you empathize, then you say, talk about, oh, you know, I'm the adult. I'm taking charge. This is what we want. And then you get that, just like you would get a team, a team on board. You, you get that voice on board. Don't you think life will be great if we approach it this way? And that imposter voice would slowly start to listening in, because you listened in, you understood, and you're offering what they really want, not what you think they want at, at the surface, what they really want is for you to do good, yes, and you are meeting that need by doing so that, you know, and I it's beautiful to do, you know, to take someone through that. And it's beautiful. It's hard in the moment, but it's beautiful to see how it can change, you know, something that felt like would never change.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, you know, I love the way you describe that, and I often think about it too, as do we want to live in alignment with fear, or do we want to live in alignment with our core values, right? And so much of it is in the very moment when we're faced with that decision. It's easy to prioritize fear, because that feels like the, you know, the safest option, and you know the obvious option, if we are, you know, anxious by nature, if we're trying to protect ourselves. But if we zoom out and we look at the arc of our lives, and we imagine ourselves even 20 years from now, looking back on this moment [yeah] what are we going to wish we had done right? Most of the vast majority of humans are not going to get. To the end of their lives, and thank God. I wish I had been more fearful, right? I wish I had prioritized fear and protecting myself, overtaking risks and trying new things and challenging myself, right? And so, so to really try to balance that voice of fear with the voice of like, How can I how do I want to show up in the world? How I want to show up for myself? How do I want to show up for others? Right? And then gradually, you start to chip away at the fear, and things feel less scary when you take those risks.
Pallavi Srivastava
Yeah, and that's all you know. I love what you're pointing to about values, about how do I want to show up. And that's what happens when we start and try or make an effort to live beyond the fear, right? That's, that's the important piece. So staying in that fear and trying to just avoid fear is one way to live, but that would shrink you. You're only folk like imagine driving on the road and only thinking that, or just avoid hitting any car you would. I also feel like, because you're thinking so much, you would probably end up hit, like, more recently taking driving lessons. So I know that I was, I would always look on the cars on the side and think, I need to not touch them. And apparently, when you're looking at that car on the side without realizing, the car starts turning towards that so I feel like it's the same thing. The more you're trying to avoid something, the more you would kind of end up finding yourself in those situations somehow. But if you leave the fear aside what you said, or if you constantly make a choice, despite the fear to know more and focus more on what you want, what you said, to know what, what are your values? I value freedom a lot. I value independence, and I really value human growth. So even though I hate business, I love, you know, doing entrepreneurship, running my company, doing all that because while I find certain pieces of it not most exciting, and there is more risk to fail, I know that it offers me the freedom, the independence, and I get to see the levels of human growth that I would not see if I was doing if I was still in my old job.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. And, and I want to go back to what you said, too. I love the analogy of driving, like that whole idea of, you know, if you're so afraid of making a mistake, you're going to make a mistake more often because you're not focused, right and, and I think about that too. What you were saying before about the idea of being able to handle it as adults, we can handle it. We may not like it, it's not pleasant, it might be painful, but we can handle it like that. That is my definition of confidence. I always say to people, confidence is not believing that you're wonderful. Confidence is believing you can handle it. [Yeah.] There's a big distinct distinction between those two things. Because if we're striving to always feel like we love ourselves and we're fantastic and you know all the right, that's never going to happen, but if we can just consistently remind ourselves, hey, no matter what happens, I'll deal with it. I have the resources. I'm an adult, I can figure out a way forward. Then it gives us more courage to actually move in that path that is parallel to fear, right?
Pallavi Srivastava
Absolutely. I love that definition of confidence that you give like, you know, and, and for me, that was that has been a learning curve [me too] to get to that, you know, definition of confidence, I always thought confidence. Look at other people and they just know they are amazing. But that's confidence. That's because that's not real. Nobody is just amazing at everything, and nobody just succeeds at everything that they do, and nobody fails at everything that they do, no matter how real they think that is. So we are not winners or losers. We win and we lose.
Kim Meninger
You're absolutely right, that balance is really important. And one thing I have learned doing the work that I'm doing, and I'm sure you have too, is that even the people that seem most confident are just putting on a good show. You know? I, I've been, you know, I think it's been really eye-opening to see how many people who come across as really confident actually struggle with the same things that we're talking about right now. It is human nature to doubt ourselves, to, to have the kinds of voices that we're talking about. And so it's not shameful, it's just human.
Pallavi Srivastava
And in fact, a healthy dose of self-doubt is good, as long as that is not overtaking you. [Yes.] You know if you're taking a decision or if you're doing certain. Things you're being a certain way with your colleagues at work, and you get some feedback. And if you're looking at, oh, wait, and maybe you started out thinking you are right, but then having doubt to question and look at that feedback is great. So certain amount of doubt is healthy, as long as you approach it with objectivity and you don't kind of over focus on it. So say you, you look, bring the doubt as one voice, yes, like it bought out your, your own personal mem board. And so there are different voices, and the doubt is just another voice that's sharing, and you can debate on it, and you can discuss it, and you can, you know, but with the common goal of you thriving as a person.
Kim Meninger
Yeah and you know, I am not a scientist. Never have been, never will be, but I often like to think about things in terms of experiments, right? Because when people who work in scientific fields or who do anything that requires, you know, doing some type of trial and error, some type of experimentation. If you can, try to look at it through that lens of like, oh, this is unexpected data. What might this be telling me? Right? As opposed to it being like, oh, no, I'm a complete failure, and everything I'm doing is wrong. It's like, no, actually, this is data. And how do I interpret this in the larger context?
Pallavi Srivastava
Okay and, and what I do, like, I try and tell my clients to bring a metaphorical or a real curiosity hat, a cute, a physical thing that they can call, you know, curiosity had a curiosity breasted. I love to kind of have some physical anchors and, and I when you bring that curiosity that this is happening, like you said, it becomes data, it becomes information, and it's not a personal attack on yourself, by yourself or by others. So yes, and having said that, I know it's hard, even though this is like, you know, right? This is your work. This is my work. We do this day in and day out, and yet, when you are in the situation, it can feel hard. So it's, it's important to kind of be kind to yourself, but if your goal is that, you remind yourself to look at that as information, as data, stay curious and see what may come out of it. Most of the time, it's like you're thankful for it a little while later.
Kim Meninger
You're absolutely right. I think that's important to remember too. Is where we think that everything that we're in the middle of right now is unique, and this moment is so high stakes, whereas if we look back and realize like, Hey, I've survived every other challenge that I've encountered along the way, I've learned so many things through the mistakes that I've made. Right? I would not be here today if it weren't for that. That reminds us too, that we can handle it. Yeah, oh my gosh, Pallav I could be here all day talking to you, and I know there is so much more where this came from in your book, for people who are listening to this conversation and would love to learn more about you and your work, and you know the, the resources that you have available, what Would you recommend they do what? What kind of resources would you point them to? Where? How can they find you?
Pallavi Srivastava
Yeah, so first thing I would say is, if they are interested in looking more closely to their relationship with themselves, I would point them to just go on Amazon and type relationship with the self. And then my name, Pallavi, P,-A-L-L-A-V. So when you type that and search, you would, you know, get, get to see the book, a little bit about the book, and you can buy an audiobook, the book from there. You can, if you want to reach out to me, I'm there on LinkedIn. You can also find my website. It's the well-being ways LLC, sorry, the website is the well-being ways so T- H-E-W-E-L-L-B-E-I-N-G, well-being ways, W-A-Y-S dot com.
Kim Meninger
Perfect. Well, I will make sure those links are in the show notes, and thank you so much for being here and sharing these insights. It's just, it's really, really helpful to hear your perspective on this, and I really appreciate that you're doing this work.
Pallavi Srivastava
Thank you, Kim. It's been a pleasure.