In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about slaying our dragons of self-doubt. My guest this week, Katherine Wintsch is the founder of the Mom Complex and author of, “Slay Like a Mother.” Here she shares her journey from marketing and advertising executive to entrepreneur and how she came to stop caring about what other people think and focus on what means most to her. In the process, she’s built a business and a life she loves. And she shares strategies to help all of us do the same.
About My Guest
Katherine Wintsch is the founder and CEO of The Mom Complex where she helps some of the largest companies in the world such as Walmart, Johnson & Johnson, Pinterest and Chobani develop better products and services for mothers. She is also author of the popular book Slay Like a Mother – which Parade magazine recently named one of the “top 10 life-changing self-help books of the year.” Katherine’s sought-after research on women and mothers has been featured by The Today Show, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and Working Mother magazine. But don’t let all the accolades fool you. She’s also been through years of therapy, decades of self-doubt and more than her fair share of tequila. Thankfully, she tamed her “dragon of self-doubt” and now she’s helping other women do the same.
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Website: https://www.slaylikeamother.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Katherine, it's such a pleasure to meet you. I'm looking forward to this conversation. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Katherine Wintsch
Hello, my name is Katherine Wintsch. I am a lot of things I guess a mother, sister, daughter, my friend, all of those things. But I live in Richmond, Virginia, I run a consulting company called The Mom Complex. And we work with mostly Fortune 500 companies to help them develop better products and services for mothers, which is an awesome job. We have 10 people. And it's amazing. And I am also the author of a self-help book for women and mothers called Slay Like a Mother. And it's about slaying your dragon of self-doubt, in a way that I myself have done and accomplished, which I'm sure we'll get into, a mother of two teenagers, married to a great man from Switzerland. And yeah, that's me.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. And I really appreciate your bringing the motherhood angle to this conversation. And I'm curious how you got here, what made you decide based on your own experience that you were going to focus on supporting mothers?
Katherine Wintsch
Well, I grew up in the marketing and advertising industry, which was a really exciting industry. And I did consumer research to understand you know, what people make people tick and what they want from brands and companies. And during my career in marketing advertising, I became a mother to two children two years apart. And it was on my maternity leave when I started watching advertising to mothers. So picture, I'm at home, I have a two-year-old and an infant. And I'm either you know, crying or drinking myself to sleep every night. And the commercials of you know, on TV were like Kelly Ripa dancing around in high heels and making cupcakes. And it really bothered me, I thought, you know, they're not doing this intentionally, they must really think that's what this is, like, you know, or that that's what we aspire to. And so, yeah, it was just out of that pain point. And then I just started talking to a lot of my existing clients about, you know, marketing to moms and how it can be improved. And then now the focus of our company is even further upstream of helping company companies develop better products and services for mothers. So, it's been a fun ride.
Kim Meninger
What is the product and services look like?
Katherine Wintsch
So, for example, we helped Chobani come out with a new line of yogurt for kids, and we work directly with mothers to figure out, do you want it in a package? Do you want it in a tube? Should it have a spoon? Should it have sprinkles? Should everything be connected? How much? Is it a replacement for dessert? Is it a breakfast yogurt, you know, so really using their own kind of consumer behavior. So that's one example. Another example would be the shopping carts at Walmart in the UK, we helped them develop shopping carts that were lower and wider so that you could get an infant car carrier on top of the shopping cart, and it would not disrupt your view of the store, you know, so when you put an infant on top of a shopping cart, you can't actually see where you're going. It's terribly frustrating. And so things like that, like just looking at how the needs of mothers can be met by these big companies.
Kim Meninger
It's so interesting because some of the things that you're describing, well, especially that shopping cart example that you just gave, you know, I think of how often I did that and just never questioned that there was another way to do it. Right? That might be a better solution. We just kind of went with what we had. It just, it strikes me how uniquely positioned you were to go into the space having the marketing and advertising background that you had, again, how was that decision for you to think about making this kind of shift? And like, did you have any doubts? Did you have any sort of internal conflict around making this kind of a change?
Katherine Wintsch
Yeah, I mean, my whole career, you know, I was, I was successful on the outside so I was a Senior Vice President at an advertising agency that was pretty well known and it was like, it was admired you know, and I was young and I was successful and so it impressed a lot of people on the outside but on the inside, it wasn't enough for me. I was working 80 hours a week. I was just kind of a shell of a human being you know, just exhausted on the inside. And that business model and advertising is like always on, always hustling, always doing new business pitches. It's never enough you know, it's you never turn it off. It's like a faucet and, and so I wanted to get away from that and so becoming an entrepreneur and you know, running The Mom Complex blacks was very freeing to me because I'm no longer on that hamster wheel of like, more, more, more, more, more, more, more. And people think it's so risky to become an entrepreneur, but I don't work anywhere near as many I don't think I bet you I don't work half as many hours as I did is when I was, you know, employed in the advertising industry. So it's not always true that being an entrepreneur and owning your own company has to be a grind, and my company is not a grind, because growth is not our goal. You know, we've said, as a company, we have 10 people, we know what it takes to pay those 10 people, well give people lots of vacation, and you know, balance, maternity leaves, you know, etc. And then, and we don't need more than that. And so that's our revenue goal. And that's our revenue goal every year. And so it's not this sense of like, okay, we did this much money last year. So what are we going to do next year? And what are we going to do next year? It's like, no, it's, it's pretty flat. And, and that gives us tremendous peace of mind tremendous balance. It's really beautiful.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, that's so interesting because I think about that in a couple of ways. Number one is the from an entrepreneurial perspective, the power or the freedom to set that definition of success or yourself that, you know, we, we all have our own definitions of success, whether we work for others, or we work for ourselves, but we are influenced by the company's definition of success in many ways when we're not in an entrepreneurial role. And so, you're, you're describing, like a really ideal scenario where you've determined this is what we need in order for all of us to kind of meet our, our own needs and our own goals. And that works. And I wonder, is there anything that you think you would advise people who, who don't necessarily have that kind of freedom to think about in terms of how maybe they can manage the hamster wheel a little bit better?
Katherine Wintsch
Well, I mean, I do, I did see it, even in advertising. There were people there was a guy, Bob, and, you know, he was a writer, and he said, you know, to the company, I don't ever want to be a Creative Director, I don't want that responsibility. I don't want to go up, you know, and I just at the time was like, Ooh, what, you know, but that's not what Bob wanted to do. You know, he didn't he just wanted to do the work. He wanted to be a writer. So I think that that, you know, that's one, you know, potential is, you know, can you be happy in your position and not always be gunning for the next title? Or, you know, because it I mean, yes, it comes with more money. And if you need more money, then do that. But if, you know, you don't need the money to, you know, do what you need to do, then, you know, what are you chasing? You know.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and that chasing word is important, I think, because I do think that there is an internal and an external dynamic at play, we've been conditioned socially to believe that success is all about climbing the ladder, or doing it as quickly as possible that if we take a breath that we're lazy or slowing down in some way.
Katherine Wintsch
That's a strong narrative that for sure that you have to be hustling, you know, all the time. But Arianna Huffington use always talking about the third metric. And the third metric is what's important to you outside of money and power, you know, because society says that, you know, it's money and title, it's money and power. But what is your third metric? And, and I was kind of stewing on entrepreneur, entrepreneurialism, at the time when I heard her talk about this. But for me, my third metric is impact. Meaning I want to impact the lives of other people. And so when I help a company developing a yogurt, or a new shopping cart, or better shopping experience, like I have impacted people's lives. I've made something better, you know, in their lives, or with my book, I'm helping to heal women from their self-doubt. And so, for me, even in my career, if I had the impact, I didn't need the money and the power, you know, that wasn't as important to me as long as even within advertising. That's why I kind of started focusing on moms. Even within my company, I started focusing on moms, and that gave me the impact that I wanted, and then that made the money, you know, less important, and certainly not the only metric as it often is.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think that that's a really important point too because I hear from women a lot, who feel almost shame and guilt. If they don't want, like the example you shared of Bob don't want to be a creative director, there must be something wrong with me. Right? Well, [yeah]. You know, how can I tell my boss that I don't want to grow, they're gonna think that I'm not committed, they're going in, there's all of these stories that we tell ourselves that we should want whatever's next. And we should want it now.
Katherine Wintsch
Yeah, so that is a perfect example of what I talked about in my book, Slay Like a Mother. And that is a dragon of self-doubt that's inside of you. So that is an example of being so worried about what someone else is going to think and that it's just going to, like, fuel this dragon of self-doubt inside of you that’s saying, “You suck, you know, you're not ambitious enough, you're lazy.” And, you know, so once you learn to slay your dragon of self-doubt, as I did, now, I don't care if people think that about me. And some people do think that about me, because I went from a Senior Vice President at this really well-known advertising agency, to the CEO of what some people say, is the Mommy Complex. Okay, so for a lot of people, like I took a big step back. And, and the difference now is that I don't care that they think that because I make more money, I work less frequently, I have 10 times more impact, I'm literally changing the world. And I've never been happier my whole life. And so you know, you can get to that point where you can't change the people around you. And if you do make a change, and if you do buck the system, you know, the system says that you should do it this way. And when you don't do it that way, you have to expect that there's going to be some rejection, you know, disdain, but when you know it's the right thing to do, you just do it. And you know, those voices become a lot less loud.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think that just going back to what you said about the third metric, and in your case, impact, that is so important, too, because if you don't know what you're doing it for, there's never enough money and power to feel like you've achieved because there's always more out there, right? And so there's, there's never enough of a sense that like, Okay, I've gotten to where I want to be, especially when you're seeing all the people around you that you identify with, maybe it's part of, you know, some kind of a cohort of yours that are continuing to do it, then it feels like they just have to keep going. And so really thinking about what's your motivation? What's your purpose for doing it is so critical. And I wonder, how did you get to that point? How did you figure out impact?
Katherine Wintsch
I figured it out because I followed the rules for a long time. And I worked really hard, and I was good at my job. And I advanced, you know, up the side. I kind of think about, like, I had a pickaxe, you know, and I was like climbing this mountain. And I was a very determined person, you know, and, and so, I got to a pretty high point on the mountain, you know, following the rules that I was told to follow. And then I just paused, and I looked around, and I was like, this is the view? This, this is why I'm doing this, like I work all the time. I'm constantly anxious, you know, and if I do become a Senior Vice President, which I did, I'd be proud of myself for like eight days. And then on the ninth day, it's like, well, what's it take to become an Executive Vice President? You know, it's just like you said, there's, it's, there's always more and, and so I just realized, I didn't like the view. I didn't like my life. I wasn't present as a mother and a wife and a friend. My entire self-esteem was in my job, you know, which is why I was working so hard. And so I think that was my realization was it's not working, I've done, and people were so proud of me, like when I told them when I did, oh my gosh, you know, and so then there was the guilt, like, I should be grateful, you know, for this success that I have at a very young age. And I'm like, that wasn't enough for me, and it was no way to live. And it was fate. You know, it felt like I was wearing a mask and I was just tired of wearing the mask and smiling and pretending like everything was okay when I was really drowning, you know? And so then lots of therapy, lots of self-help books. Have lots of red wine. And, and I learned to love myself on the inside, so that I no longer require it on the outside. And so that's really what changed everything. You know, I don't need the career accolades on the outside, like I'm changing people's lives. And that's more than enough.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I also think about when you talk about not caring what other people think often what other people think, is a reflection of their own insecure narrative, too, right? Because if they see you doing something that challenges sort of a fragile narrative of their own, and it's not comfortable for them to question, well, maybe what I have accepted at face value is the only way to do something is, is not true. And I'd have to think differently about my own definition of success. So it's easier to judge other people than it is to look in the mirror. And so I think that's important too to recognize as we go through our own career growth and development and think about what's best for us is that what you hear in terms of feedback from other people really is a reflection of their own challenges and issues, not yours.
Katherine Wintsch
And there's, there's too many people to try to please like, I mean, longer plays ever. I mean, there's, there's, the people never end. And they're always very different. And I'll tell you, it reminded me when you said like definition of success. So this was a great exercise my therapist gave me many years ago. So she said, Katherine, first, I want you to write down your definition of success in life, not at work in life, what is it? And I was like, Oh, shit, you know, like I did all of my definition of success was wrapped up in my career and titles and trophies and recognition. But, um, so I had to do that one first, which was really, really challenging. And then only then could I do through that lens, what is my definition of success at work? And so that's just a great exercise of what really is important to you. And, you know, my definition of success in life was about being present. And, you know, having lunch with my grandmother or grandfather and, you know, cutting somebody's grass. I mean, it was just like, little things it wasn't, they were very achievable, I guess, is my point, you know, but not if then my definition of success at work became more and more and more growth, growth, growth that's going to destroy that, my goal of success in life, you know, that was an interesting exercise for me.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I think of it too, as a really powerful mirror. Because if you honestly answer that question of what is your definition of success in life, and it doesn't map to how you're actually showing up? It's really hard to unsee that for me. And so once you have that clarity, there's going to be a lot of tension and discomfort until you make a choice as to how you're going to reconcile that gap. And so I wonder how you think about I'm just thinking of people listening who are maybe starting to question, Am I in that same kind of a situation like, what's the, what's the first step to take so that they can start to think about is this my story too, is this something I should be thinking about, but without opening themselves up to all kinds of discomfort that they may not be ready for?
Katherine Wintsch
Yeah, it will be lots of discomfort you just have to know so Iyanla Van Sant is kind of a spiritual guru that I really like and she says, The Life You Want To Live is just on the other side of the labor pains it will take to birth it like so you know this it will be a rebirth and it will be short term pain as birth is. But life on the other side will be so much better. And just as you just said, you will not unsee like you can't unlearn like when you learn to love yourself, there's no going backwards, you know, so that you put yourself in the right environments to nurture yourself and your soul and, and what you really, really want. So, if you're just starting out one exercise I would recommend, there's a book called Finding Your Own North Star by Martha Beck. She's a life coach. She's Oprah's life coach. And she has this exercise where you take a piece of paper draw a line down the middle and on the right-hand side you put all the activities that you're participating in that really drain your energy like you don't want to do them. It can be email, it can be doing the chores and whatever it is everything that just drains you. And then on the other side, and this is at work and home and life, church, whatever. On the other side, make a list of all the activities that you participate in, have participated in that just light your soul on fire, that you just love doing, love participating and really, you know, wake you up, and then start to see just that, that's the exercise period. But then start to pay attention over time of how you're spending your time how much of it is in that like dreaded, you know, landscape and, and how much of that is work, therefore, somewhat more in your control, you know, to change to augment, maybe it's changing positions, maybe it's changing careers, maybe it's becoming an entrepreneur, whatever it is, or even within your own job taking on certain responsibilities that light you up. But we often skip this step of understanding what we actually enjoy and do not enjoy doing in our lives. That's it's just knowledge. You know, we learn about the weather and math and science, and we never learn about ourselves. And that's such a shame.
Kim Meninger
I think that's a very good point, I think, you know, I often talk about the fact that we have a negativity bias. So we're always really tuning into, what is it that we don't like? Or how do we not feel like we're measuring up all the things that we think we're doing wrong, but we're not taking the time to really catalog what we enjoy doing, where we're getting our energy? What, what the, the ideal version might look like? And so often, because of that, I do recommend starting with the what, what do you not want question because it's usually a little bit more accessible to us. But I think it's such an important thing to, to think about is where are you getting your energy word? Do you find fulfillment, because for many of us, and this was true for me, before I shifted my career to is I, I couldn't remember the last time I felt excited about something I was doing at work. You know, I remember feeling stressed about it. I remember feeling pressured to get it done. But I didn't remember, when was the last time I felt like, Oh, this is something I'm really looking forward to. And I think that's unfortunately, a reality for so many of us because we're just trying to get through the day, we're just trying to get the things off of our list. And we're not necessarily thinking about what's a better alternative.
Katherine Wintsch
Well, I think that's a good point. And I think there's a narrative that that is acceptable. That's the norm. I mean, it certainly wasn't previous generations of I mean, back then, and when it was like, have a job, keep your job, you know, keep your head down and be quiet. But um, you know, I hope the narrative is coming through to that, like, it is possible to find a job in a career that you absolutely love, you know, that just lights everything inside of you on fire, you know, and I had it in a much larger company advertising, I have it on my own, I certainly should have it on my own. I always tell people, they're like, Oh, it's so amazing. Like, how much balance and success you have. I'm like, Well, I know. But I built, my dad was good like that. That was the goal. And if it's miserable, and you created it, then you…
Kim Meninger
You have only yourself to blame
Katherine Wintsch
Yeah, but like, but even on the big, I have friends that work for huge companies. And they're so empowered and inspired and work with smart people like it is possible. And so hopefully the people that love what they do will talk about it more. Because, you know, I think a lot of people accept the job that they have thinking that work has to suck. It's work versus life. But I love my work as much as I love my life. Like it's so empowering. But anyway, I just my point is like it's possible.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really important point to emphasize. And it doesn't mean you have to go out and start your own company, it doesn't mean you have to be an entrepreneur, to empower yourself to, again, sort of take, take stock of what you enjoy doing what you do well, and position that to your employer as a better opportunity for you to add value for you to make a more meaningful impact.
Katherine Wintsch
Yep, definitely. And then maneuvering was in your company. You know, there are certain things you can, you know, work on more express your passion for, you know, so that you can have some of that joy.
Kim Meninger
I have to ask this question because we're talking about moms in particular, what do we do with the mom guilt or the narrative that says, like, oh, I should just be worried about my kids to happiness or, you know, I don't have time to think about myself because my family needs me or my business. This needs me or my friends need me like, there's just this added layer of guilt that goes along with taking care of our own needs, because it always feels like we should be putting that energy towards our own children or for those who aren't moms, right? I don't mean to leave you out of the conversation, there's always some other responsibility that we feel is more important than our own. How do you think about that piece of this?
Katherine Wintsch
Well, I write a lot about that in my books, I like a mother. And it's, it's really a major phenomenon. And it's happening for two reasons. One, it's the narrative of our society, this like mom as martyr, you know, as you're supposed to be, and you're supposed to be selfless. And that's what's held up, as, you know, the narrative of the ideal mother. So I think first is questioning that narrative, you know, like, you can work outside the home and still love your children, and you don't have to make all the meals, you know, in your house. So I think it's really questioning, you know, who made these rules? And, you know, do we have to follow them? So I have two teenagers, able-bodied teenagers and amazing husband. And so I said, you know, up to them, other than history, give me one reason why I would be the person in his family that has to buy and cook and make all the food, like, why would it be me other than the past? You know, and the people who made up these rules are dead like that this was long ago, you know, that women and but I work as much if not more than my husband, you know, and so, you know, like, we can all share in this. So I think it's questioning that narrative, in a really healthy way. Like, I'm not taking on that burden in my house, I don't wash my children's clothes, I don't watch my husband's clothes, like, everybody's, you know, willing, they're not what they're able, and they can and they do, or they don't, and I don't care if they were dirty clothes. But anyway, it's, it's, you know, that narrative, but then also, it's believing it's slaying your dragon of self-doubt, and believing in yourself enough to know that what other people say about you or think about you may not be the truth. So, you know, just as an example, I have two children and two different schools, I don't spend very much time at my son's school because my husband does more there. And so when I go there, I feel like a loser because I don't know the mothers, I don't know, the teachers, I don't really know where his classroom is, you know, and it makes me feel really bad about myself for a minute, but then I realize that this is one sliver of the view of me, you know, like, I have a very full life and have a very full life with my son. And if anybody thinks in this one sliver of a moment of showing up in his school, that I'm a bad mother, then they're wrong. Like, that's, I don't need to feel guilty about that. Because if they were thinking that it's not true. You know, and I can't be everywhere at one time, and you know, showing up to his classroom, I don't think affects how much he knows. I love him. Do you what I mean? Like when I said that I had to slay this dragon of self-doubt, I had to find my love from the inside. And now I don't have that extra layer of guilt. I might have some disappointment of like, Oh, I wish I knew more here, you know, but, but it's not like I'm a bad person.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. I think that's such an important piece of the conversation, too, is sort of the agreements that you work out with your partner with your children. It's funny, my, when you were talking about that, it made me realize like, I've never met my son's orthodontist. I don't know, I've never met him because my husband has managed that process from the very beginning. And I often think about as a substitute for guilt, which is often our go-to feeling is gratitude. Like, oh, I could feel guilty that I don't know my son's orthodontist or that you don't know your son's classroom. But instead, I feel grateful that I have a partner who takes that on and that I'm able to support my son in other ways, and that it doesn't have to add love here. Like what besides history means that I have to be the one to do this. I think we all have to define our own roles and responsibilities within our own living situations and who says who says that it has in there?
Katherine Wintsch
And then it's like, you just carry on and, and again, it's almost like I just expected you know, like, expect a little bit of a backlash or like, Oh, your children do their own laundry, you know, and I'm like, yeah, they have since they were eight like that. Yes. And, and again, I don't care if their clothes are dirty, like that is not a reflection of me. That's a decision that they make and you know, I can draw that boundary. I think that's another healthy boundary like yes, you're in I home, but everything you do doesn't mean that I suck, you know.
Kim Meninger
And their future, their future roommates and partners will thank you for giving them that life skill too, right, because I think that's important, too is that, you know, we're equipping them to be independent and to take care of themselves.
Katherine Wintsch
Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, I But again, there's people who love to cook, there's moms and women that you know, and if that's your jam, and you love to do it, then you should do it. Like, I'm not saying wholeheartedly, you know, throw toss in the apron, you know, but it's like, if you don't enjoy doing something that society says that you should do, or you don't enjoy doing it in a certain way, or, you know, whatever, then, you know, eventually, you'll just get the courage to do it. And you'll see that the world keeps spinning, and people don't care what you think they're gonna care.
Kim Meninger
But I think that's a really important thing to emphasize. People don't care as much as you think they did. And if they do, it's because of their own stuff, not because of yours, you know, because you're, you're shining a mirror on them, and they, they're uncomfortable with what they're seeing in themselves.
Katherine Wintsch
The earlier you can do this, the better because like, what we're talking about now is this, like, we've been hustling, like run, run, run, run, run and go get the money, go get the money, go get money, go get the title, you know, and then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, I'm out of gas, I'm exhausted. And for none of this really mattered, you know, like this is, you know, we just get blinded to the, you know, it's like this gravitational pull towards more. That is, you know, again, if that's your jam, then have at it. But if it's not, there is a different path.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I think about that a lot, too, because you hear from women who reach a certain point in their lives, who will say things like, I don't care anymore. So we know it's coming, we know that we are going to reach a point where these things don't matter in the way that they do now. So how do we accelerate? How do we get to that place sooner, so we can enjoy it more so that we can feel less guilt so that we can feel more empowered, so we can, you know, do the things that bring us energy? And so that's, that's how I'm thinking about our conversation is helping people get there more quickly?
Katherine Wintsch
Well, I love it, isn't it, it's exactly what I say about my book, I say the whole purpose of this book is not to take you in a different direction is to take you in the direction that you're already going. But to get you there quicker, like you're, if you live to be 85 Like, this is what you're going to say period, everybody. And so, like, can you get there at 55, 35 13, you know, so that you don't have to, you know, wear that mask and that facade and, you know, follow all of these unwritten, but very powerful rules and narratives.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. Yeah, gosh, this has been so great, Katherine, I really appreciate your insights. Where can people find you if they want to read your book or learn more about you and your story?
Katherine Wintsch
Yeah, I'm would invite anybody to follow us on Instagram at Slay Like a Mother. And you can also sign up for on slaylikeamother.com. You can sign up for our newsletter. We send out lots of blog posts, podcasts and interviews all about how to slay your dragon of self-doubt.
Kim Meninger
That's wonderful. Thank you so much for doing that for all of us. Really appreciate it. And thanks for being here.
Katherine Wintsch
Thanks for having me.