In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about leveraging the power of love languages to create long-lasting change. My guest this week, Paul Zolman, grew up in a family of abuse where he learned to be angry. This anger followed him into adulthood until he decided he no longer wanted to live this way. Here Paul shares the approach he took to change his behavior, which ultimately led to a shift from anger to love.
About My Guest
Paul Zolman is the author of Love is God. In His wisdom, He placed us in a variety of circumstances that require us to find our way back to His pure love. So, what qualifies Paul Zolman to speak about love? His childhood experience of the opposite of love. From that austere beginning, and the distaste it formed inside him, he searched for and eventually created a method that transformed his life from anger to loving everyone. Growing up in a family of abuse, physical touch became his preferred love style, only because of the regularity. He could almost count on it. It was consistent. He came to think that was the way to express love. But deep inside, he knew that was a twisted belief. He wanted a better life for himself, which is why he created a paradigm shift that works. In this book, you’ll find what helped Paul Zolman move from a childhood boot camp of abuse to being a person who loves everyone and can find good about anyone in any circumstance. This is truly the role of love.
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Paul, I'm so excited for our conversation today. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Paul Zolman
Thank you, Kim, pleasure to be with you today. I'm actually what I like to call a love language linguist. And I've, it's kind of one of those, those titles that you give yourself after you become something, you know, when you're creating a company, you're gonna call yourself the president of the company, or you're gonna call yourself the founder of the company. And he kind of work into that title. So love language linguist is something that I've kind of worked into. But while I'm on my way to get there, there is that imposter syndrome that that happens. So I had a problem with anger. And it's only because I was raised in an angry family. When I was younger, that I had a lot of there was a lot of abuse going on a lot of put-downs, a lot of sarcasm, a lot of just, just an angry, angry humor, angry vocabulary, a lot of anger that was going on. And I had kind of had the residual anger leftover into my adulthood. And so by the time I'm 35 years old, I'm still blaming my father, for all these the social awkwardness, all the all the personal awkwardness, that that I'm having in my life. By that time, I'm a, I'm a CFO of a public company. And I'm still feeling that, that syndrome, I gotta quit this anger, if I want to go anywhere else, I need to be a little bit nicer guy. And it was just I was saying stuff that was more negative. I said, I don't want to be angry kind of a double negative sentence. That really, I figured out that only in math, do double negatives work that you can multiply two, though two negative numbers together to make something positive. That doesn't work in relationships. So when I, when I started to realize that, Kim, that it really, really started me thinking how am I going to overcome this. And so I stopped blaming my father for all these things realized I was responsible for my own actions at age 35. And, but at age 35, my father had been dead already seven years here, I was even blaming a guy that wasn't even around not saying that I could go to nobody that I could go to resolve the issues at all, just blaming that person. So I had to really get out of that culture somehow. And it's kind of scary. When you move from one culture, or one, one brand or one label to another label, you're always going to have that impostor syndrome. So am I really loving when I used to be totally angry all the time. And when you're moving from one sector to another sector, you're always going to have that impostor syndrome like that. And I was happy in that. But I created something that, that finally started to work for me. So I was studying at there was a time but 15 years ago that I was single, I just did anger was contributory to the demise, my first marriage. But so at that time, I'm single, I've find someone that I'm serious about time, I'm number 10, of 11 children, Kim, so I have to have big brother approval, have to take this person up to for Big Brother approval. And so I'm going 300 miles north, I take this woman into my brother's house, and my sister-in-law pulls her aside and says the only emotion that Zolman family learned growing up was anger. At first, I denied it said, Ah, then it made me mad. So, so I'm hearing I'm verifying exactly what her words are saying what an outsider says about our family. And I realized that, you know, if that's the perception of the Zolman family, I've got to change that perception right now. Or I've got an opportunity to change that perception. So I started reading the Color Code, and I started reading The Five Love Languages and really liked the principles of the Five Love Languages. But from where I came from, I didn't get it. Kim I'm supposed to or Dr. Champion, you mean I'm supposed to guess what Kim's love languages and cater to that, and there will be buddies. That doesn't sound like love. I didn't come from love but I didn't sound like love either. And I'm a bad guesser. And that's why I have the kind of relationships I have because I'm a bad guesser just wasn't working for me, Kim. So the second thing that Dr. Chapman has is that well, if you take this survey, then you can find out what your love language is. Well, Dr. Chapman, what am I supposed to be doing with that? Advertising? Hello, Kim. What do you have for me today? Or if I could wear a bad one this is my love language. I'm gifts with the cat would bring it on. And it's so awkward. I'm done with awkward really. It's been awkward all my life trying to figure out how to get rid of anger and being angry in public situations is not exactly something that people want to come back right to you, that repels people. And I did not want that. So, so what I did decided is I contacted Dr. Chapman and said, I had this idea. So contacted him ask him, are you licensing, those little icons that you have for each one of the love languages? And his attorney wrote back and said, No, we're not doing that. And it's 30 years old, they're kind of dated, and I thought they're not really that attractive. So I thought I'd make my own. But at first I went to my attorney close by, and he's a copyright attorney, intellectual property attorney. He said that this said theory, like the love language theory is not copy not copyrightable. Application is. So they weren't doing it as a game. So can he can give me permission that I could make my own icons and create my own game. So that's what I did. I created a little cube that on the cube it has each one of the love languages. All you see there's here's this is a person holding a platter like they're serving somebody. That would be the icon for service. The very common, common two hands together forming a heart. But on this particular icon, I have a conversation flout. So these will be the words from the heart that would cover the words. Now I've got a hand holding an hourglass that represents time, hand holding a gift. And then two hands together. So those, those would be the five love languages to answer together, we'd be gifts will be gifts, of course, six sides on the cube. This one is surprised me. So Kim, there's just two instructions throughout the day every day. That's the love language you practice giving away all day that day. And what I found is that while I'm giving a love away my whole paradigm shifts. No longer am I stacking annoyances like my father did. And stalking, stacking, stacking until I have it that flash of anger that comes out. I'm what I'm, in my mind. I'm saying what's wrong with that person? Sometimes they say it out loud. What's wrong with that person? And it's just that's, that was how it all started to get to that angry outburst. Now, is what's right with that person. What can I love about that person? So it's a paradigm shift in the total opposite direction. This is uncharted territory for someone that came from anger that you're trying to watch for what's, what's right about those people. And in uncharted territory, you get that impostor syndrome. Well, I'm lost, where am I? What it, what am I supposed to be doing here? I don't belong here, then you get all those feelings of being an imposter in uncharted territory. But you've got to keep going in that territory to become familiar with that territory, especially in the good things, that when you're familiar with it, then you feel like you belong. This became a replacement behavior for me, I needed that replacement behavior for the character, character trait to find that character trait of love in my life. You know, Dr. Chapman says that you should find a significant other to practice these love languages with. Again, I'm in uncharted territory. I'm single, who am I supposed to love Dr. Chapman? And I realized I can love everybody. You're not with your significant other 24/7 I don't know anybody that is some people don't want to be there really happy not to be with their significant other 24/7. So it's part-time, part-time love in situation, according to what Dr. Chapman and written now I had the circumstance, though, that just to the very task to love everyone I came in contact with was consistent, I needed that consistency. I need that, that loving consistency. And I needed to have that ability to have that purpose, be something that carried me throughout the day. And it really worked. It changed the whole behavior, and practicing that, you know, I feel like, you know, I feel like I can say that I'm a person that loves people now. I feel like I can say I'm a love language linguist, because by rolling the die over 30, just a 30-day period, I learned all love languages to give it away. And the best part about that is it increased my vision, that when it comes my way, I can see it improved my communication skills, so I can see it when it comes my way. Even if it's not my primary love language. I can say, Oh, they're loving on me. And then I can respond appropriately to that. So that's kind of kind of where I came from and where, how I found my own imposter syndrome.
Kim Meninger
That’s… Impostor syndrome aside for a moment and that's where really inspiring story. And I wonder if we could back up for a moment because you've talked about growing up with anger. And I wonder, how did you realize because anger, when it's ever-present is kind of just your norm. Right? So how did you realize it was a problem? Was it something that other people were telling you was a problem? Is it something that you were just felt like you were uncomfortable in it? Like what? How did you know? Okay, I have to do something different now.
Paul Zolman
I think that's a great question, Kim. But I think it's pretty, pretty evident when you're offending people. You know, there's a problem. It's, I pardon the example. But this is probably one of the best examples. If someone's in a swimming pool, and they have an accident in a swimming pool. Everybody, it repels everybody. Everybody scatters. It wasn't me. It wasn't me. left all alone by themselves. Oh, well, yeah, there's the culprit. And when that happens, you know, it's totally embarrassing, and you feel isolated, and nobody wants to be around you. That's how I felt when I was angry. And it's easy to easy to read. Read that.
Kim Meninger
That's a great example. And I'm curious because anger is interesting. Anger is complicated because there's the learned behavior that you're describing. But I also sometimes think of anger, also, as an expression of our own self-worth. And there's, you know, this is an overgeneralization. But there's research that shows that, based on socialization, women are more likely to turn their anger inward, and men are more likely to turn their anger externally to the world. And I wonder if you see that as being the case, like, did you feel like your anger? was a function of or somehow intertwined with your own self-worth? And did you have to do that kind of work to, to get to where you are today?
Paul Zolman
Great question, Kim. I don't, I don't think it was connected to my self-worth so much as I didn't feel like I had to put people down to raise myself up. Never. I really never felt like that I really never was trying to do anything like that. I know that there are people that do that, that they get angry because they want control of the situation. And I really never felt like that. That was an object of my anger, what my anger and as I traced it back a little bit, and to be able to overcome something you kind of have to trace it back. Well, where does it start? And I realized that what my year started was from just being annoyed at something somebody else was doing. And when I realized that, it's I've hardly ever annoyed at myself, Kim. Well, one time I was so annoyed at myself, I didn't talk to myself for three days. What I found, Kim was that I was being annoyed at other people and what they were doing and their choices that they were doing. When I had absolutely no control over their choices. I had no control over their life, when I realized that that's what I was doing. I was trying to overlay my experience and my, my better choices. Elevating myself. And I guess that would be elevating myself above them saying I know a better way. And just trying to say what's wrong with you? Why don't you do it the right way, or something like that? When I'm annoyed at somebody for that reason, I realized I was out of my lane. Not not in my control, not in my purview should not be in my purview. But somehow we take that into our purview, thinking that that's my, that's my domain when it's not. And one, once I realized that, you got to stay in your own lane, stay in your domain, and just choose to do what you're going to do. Send out what you're going to send out. If you're going to be loving, send out love. And if that's who you want to be, make sure it happens all the time. And by doing that, what I'm watching for when I'm rolling the die and practicing that particular love line on that day, I'm watching for people to light up. When they light up. Bingo, I've discovered either what their primary or secondary love language is no longer Kim, do you have to say, Excuse me? Can you pause this relationship for a minute so I can have you take this survey? So I know how to love you. We're done with awkward. We don't have to do that anymore. So it's just a better way.
Kim Meninger
One of my favorite things about what you're describing is that it's very action-oriented. And I think a lot of times we think that we change our mindsets first and then our behavior changes but I think it's actually the opposite of that. I think committing to changing your behavior actually chains changes your mindset. And I wonder if you can speak to that, because one of the things that I think about is, it takes a lot of self-discipline to commit to something different than your default approach to the world. And especially when you're learning something new, it's uncomfortable. It's not even just uncomfortable. Sometimes you just forget to do it. And so I wonder how to, how did you? How do you think about the like, the process of engaging in this behavior and how it changed your, yourself your mindset, and how you stayed focused during that time?
Paul Zolman
Great questions. Kim, let me let me start with the mindset part of it. First, I realized what the mindset was that I did not want to have, and I needed a new behavior. But that new behavior, whatever it was, that new behavior had to be something I had to do all the time - something that had to be consistent, something that would keep me so busy that I would not backslide into that old mindset, backslide, just out of habit, you know, knee jerk reaction, backslide into back into the annoyance and then be stacking those annoyances to get angry, get that flash of anger. So I needed something that was just persistent in that way. And what I found is that, that instead of looking at the 10, to 20, maybe 5%, of a person that is maybe uncultured, maybe unrefined, that those mistakes, those faults we all have, instead of focusing on, realized I'm missing 80 to 90%, of the good that people are doing, and focusing on the minority of that person. So when I realized that, then I just changed my focus changed it from what's wrong with that person, or what faults do they have and quit looking for that because guess what, that's a bad boomerang that's coming right back at you. And you don't want it because those boomerangs could take your head off, and it could hurt really bad, it could be 10 times worse than what you send out. So quit focusing on that start focusing on the good, that paradigm shift was really fairly easy to do. Once I saw that that's what I needed to do to replace that behavior. And as I'm rolling the die and watching for what's right about that person, what can I love about that person, I'm so busy. Absolutely. So busy with that 80 to 90% of the good that people have. One person has so many good things and watch and watch and watching and trying to express those good things that had never seen before. Or never iterated before, or just hadn't had an opportunity to focus on those things before and got so excited about that. They're gonna they're light enough all along the way, when they're Lighten up, I've made their day and now that made my day that I made somebody else's day. So there's a payday involved there as well, that you're getting, you're really getting that satisfaction of helping someone have a better day, when they have a better day. They're, they're sending that out also to their circle of influence so that they'll have a better day. That's makes it a whole lot more easier to keep focused, and keep, keep on that track of that paradigm shift. Even though it's imposter syndrome. These are uncomfortable. Dr. Chapman probably said it the best way that most people like to give away what they have as their primary love language, in hopes that they'll come back. It's really a crapshoot that way. Because nobody has, there may be very few that have your same exact love language. This, this way, at least you got a better chance every day, every day, you're going to light somebody up in one one genre of the love languages every single day. That's what you're watching for. And that's what you live for. But it'll be several times a day. When you come, come upon maybe service maybe people light up when you know I'm going to wash your car came today, I'm gonna vacuum your carpets for you. How's that going to make you feel see your lighting up right now? Those ideas will be fun for, fun for you for someone to do to say that they're going to do that. That's what you're watching for. That's what keeps you motivated to keep, keep on the track. The second thing, thing that kept me motivated is the variety. I love, spice life. This variety is the spice of life. And I really believe that that rolling that die and changing the venue changing or the change in the type of love that you're sending out all day every day really helps you stretch your imagination to those love languages. They're going to be uncomfortable if it's not your particular love language for the first 30 days after you get used sending out then you get more creative about what could I do for service. What can I do for creatively for physical touch, you could make, make a handshake. A creative handshake was with a friend, I envy those people that have those creative handshakes. Very fun to watch. That's a perfect way of physical touch. You're developing a bond with that person in that way. So there's creativity that also spurs you as you're going along this path that may be foreign soil, where you'll feel that impostor syndrome as well.
Kim Meninger
I love this. And I wondering, especially because you talked about the imposter syndrome, it's really hard to change when the people around you aren't changing, or don't necessarily know what you're doing. So how open were you with the people closest to you about your commitment to making this change? Did you find like, particularly with your family, was there any resistance skepticism? How did they relate to you as you were changing on this path?
Paul Zolman
So, Kim, that's a great question. Yeah. Would you like that person in your family that's angry person? Or would you like someone that's loving and trying to change to loving? What kind of resistance are you going to have if they were angry before? Zero resist absolutely zero resistance because they want you to be better. And it's interesting that way that once you, once you get to that point that that you are better than now they're saying, Oh, you're not that great, and then tried to tear your charity back down. Awful in that way, but it's just kind of reality that here you are, you're trying to be better, better, better, better. You get there, and now they're trying to tear you back down. It's like crabs in a bucket. You know, they have those little, little, those little pinchers they'll, they'll pull each other back down. They don't want one crab pulling out of the bucket. I mean, we're using each other as a stairstep to get out of the bucket. But they don't want each other on the bucket. They'll pull them right back down. And then they have to start all over climbing up again.
Kim Meninger
Did anyone ask you about it? Did you find that anyone was interested in adopting your approach?
Paul Zolman
In the family? That's a great question, though. In the family. There's not, not a lot of my children, each one of them have a die. Each one, you know, each one of them have, have the cube in their family, the extent of the use of it. I don't know that. It's that it's very expensive. I haven't heard a lot of feedback from them. They just think oh, that's dad's thing. And that's just that's just his journey. But I do have a son that that was rolling in one day, one day he wrote, he wrote gifts. And he says, Yeah, that's the hardest one, I don't want to do that. Then it he said, I'm not going to do that girl did again was gifts again. Third time is gifts again. So exasperated world is the fourth time it's gifts, says okay, but I looked at gifts a whole lot differently. I looked at Gifts, gifts is kind of the umbrella for all the love languages, and really tried to be creative as possible about doing things that don't cost money. Of course, you can go buy something that is a gift, but try to be creative about things that don't cost money, a smile, or or even a hug, could be a gift. That would be a touch, touch. So like I'm saying it was an umbrella because it could be the words you could send a note. There was a couple I was working with that he knew that she did not like this quote into the love language test. But she liked words. One day he wrote gifts, he said, What the heck am I going to do? And he thought, I'll write her a note. Put the note in a gift she wrapped, unwrapped it and was absolutely delighted for the note in the gift. So you have to be a little bit creative about it. So words could be gift, a gift as well. Just hanging out with someone spending your time with them could be a gift. Serving someone making dinner for them could be a gift. They all are encompassed in gifts. So just when you're when you're thinking about are dreading maybe rolling, rolling the gift one, think of it that really encompasses everything that anything is game for a gift, but make it something that that is from you. Something that storebought doesn't mean as much as something from the heart. So just remember that when you're giving gifts and I found that you know that the family members that do practice it are really doing a lot better. Those that don't are still about the same.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. I like the way you describe that because I do think gifts on the surface makes you think money feels expensive. And, and so it's your right, it's always more meaningful to get something from the heart than get a gift card from the someplace, right?
Paul Zolman
Well, I like gift cards. Bad says, My Love Languages, gift cards.
Kim Meninger
I have a question for you, because love languages, this concept has has been around for some time. But at least in my view, it's only recently been talked about in the context of work. And I think the word love kind of complicates it. When you think about the workplace and interacting with your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit about how do we overcome maybe some of the skepticism or some of the feelings of awkwardness or inappropriateness that come up for us as we think about applying this in the workplace as opposed to in our personal lives?
Paul Zolman
No, absolutely. Great question, Kim. And I think that when people hear the word love, they may or may immediately go to what the movies show the sexual encounter. And I think that that's the problem that if that's where your mind is going, obviously, that doesn't apply in the workplace. And therefore love doesn't apply in the workplace, but are looking at a whole lot differently. What we're trying to build here is a decency and a vision of what people the goodness of people in any situation is different than any, any sexual attraction at all. It's the goodness down downright goodheartedness of everyone, and everybody has good in them. And we're watching for that good. It's not about sexual at all. It's about just being decent to one another. And I think that in the workplace, it really needs to be, be that way, that does not need to be a hostile environment. Fact, Kim, I think that you could become a love language linguist, it's a sexy title, I know you want it, you want to put that on your resume. And when you go to that employer, the employers gonna say, What the heck is our love language linguists, and you're gonna say, I just love people, they want their customers love and they want a loving environment within the workplace, a decent environment within the workplace, not a hostile environment, they want a loving environment, your resume should rise to the top because of that, just those two things, just that answer. That's what we're looking for in the workplace, we're looking for high-five fist bumps, Pat's on the back above the waist, obviously. Those are the that's the type of touch we're looking at in the workplace, you can do things for other people in the workplace. If you're fast and finished your work, you can go to someone else to help them with their, with their job, help them finish their work, I think there needs to be that cooperation within the workplace. Think of it as in customer service situation, you're being kind to that customer, even though they might be yelling, I think a calm voice to that customer is really going to calm them down and be more, you're gonna, it's gonna be more productive. And the customer service, they'll remember that. They'll remember the calm voice, they'll remember the goodness that they felt when calling into customer service know that maybe they'll call more often, maybe have more customer service calls. But it seems to me that you'll have a whole lot less because satisfaction will be achieved by helping the customer achieve what they desire to achieve. And I think that works in customer service at work in the sales situation. If you can see a love language, see all the love languages of different customers that you're selling, you've got some, some buttons that you can push that can really kind of bring the sale to you at that point in time. So across the whole spectrum, any, any part of, of the business sector really can use these love languages. In the basic form, there is what I found Kim, with the stacking that I was doing to annoyances, I found the same thing was true that the stacking of kindnesses has will get you to higher levels, or a higher, higher level of love. And those as your stairstep in those kindnesses. You're gonna get to compassion, you're gonna get to charity, you're gonna get to that forgiveness, or that empathy, or intimacy or sympathy, you're gonna get to those higher loss, Whoever heard of somebody insulted, insulting, insulting, insulting, and then, and then they get forgiveness does not happen that way. It's kindness, kindness, kindness, and then possibly forgiveness is going to happen. It's just that same stair stepping only a different direction. That's what this this role of love die has done for me, has helped me stairstep to get to bed the better part of life, which would be those higher laws of law.
Kim Meninger
The power of what you're describing is so multifaceted. because as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about the personal benefit. And you talked about that too, in terms of, you know, the feeling you get when you know that you have made someone else feel good. And our brains are wired in such a way that we see what we focus on. Right? And so if you're looking for the positives and other people, that's what you're going to experience not that you're never going to be angry or frustrated again. But you're, you're more likely to notice, as you've described, all of the positive things that you may be overlooking when you're looking through a different lens. And then what I also love about what you're describing is, we often feel at least I do, that we have very little power or control in a world that's so negative, and so hostile and angry all the time. And this feels like a way in which we can control our environment. And then the contagious effect of what you're describing. I know, every one of us has been in a situation where maybe you're having a bad day, and someone else smiles at you or says something nice to you, and it just changes your mood instantly, or you're having a great day and someone cuts you off in traffic, and now you can't get it out of your head. Right? That, that power to just do something so small, but so meaningful, can really have a ripple effect around us.
Paul Zolman
Absolutely. Kim, I love that, that, that analogy to that this really is a small, small investment. Two seconds a day, we all are geared to make small investments and hope for a huge return. This, this is one of those things that absolutely, you're gonna get a huge return for a tiny investment of two seconds a day, that sets the theme for the day, this, this is going to burn into your mind. It's a picture. And it's there's no words on it. It's a picture. If I say the word elephant, you're not seeing E-L-A-P-H-A-N-T in your mind. You're seeing the picture. He's got a memory hooks, we'll remember what you're doing all day long. And that's by doing that. It's really good to get to be able to be that impetus for you. And the anchor, anchor can be the impetus as it was for me I was angry about where I was not being able to do love regularly as I wanted to that was became that input this for me to move on to become, become that better person.
Kim Meninger
Where does anger fit into your life now because it's impossible to live a life without any anger. There's a reason why anger exists. So when you get angry now, how do you know that it's, this is really not the right way to say this, but the right kind of anger as opposed to more of the habitual anger that you experienced in the past?
Paul Zolman
I think the right kind of anger actually motivates you to do something good. The bad type of anger motivates you to do something bad. And think ill of another person and or to, to, you know, curse or to do something, something unkind. The writer anger motivates you to do the right thing.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. I like that. I think that's, that's true. A lot of good has come out of anger, right that you just get fed up and uses decide I'm going to do something different for a better outcome. Wow, this has been such a fascinating conversation, Paul, it sounds like these dice, dice are available, right? Where can people find you and your work if they're interested in learning more?
Paul Zolman
Well, the dice are available. I do have for people that like to record what they rolled up to, they saw the love and that way I have a journal that just it's kind of a journal with prompts. I found that when I've ever written in a journal, if it's a blank page, my mind goes blank. This is a purposeful journal. It's all about love. You know, they can write what they wrote opportunities on Love in that way. What they did about those opportunities, becomes a love legacy journal. I would have loved to have a journal like that from my mother Kim, or my grandmother. Instead, I got a journal about the weather, the weather 60 years ago what the weather was like 60 years ago, if I wanted to read the almanac, 60 years ago, I would have done it already. This is more meaningful and it's going to be a lot better. So I've got the journal I've got a book I've written about this. And then I've got the DI I've got it in a bundle package that is about 20% off for your listeners right now. They can go to my website role of love.com or r-o-l-e of love.com. One thing on the play on words it's r-o-l-l is what you do to the cube outside of r-o-l-e is what changes you within so you really are ready for this change. This is something that will work for you. You have to be ready. Most if you're not ready to make the change, if you're not wanting to make the change, it's not going to happen for you. You've got to really want this and then just commit to do it two seconds a day, who can't commit to two seconds a day seriously. There, it's less than $30, $29.99 a whole lot less than any therapy session you can find out there.
Kim Meninger
That’s a very good point, Paul. Thank you. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for sharing your story for, for sharing these insights with us. This has been a great conversation.
Paul Zolman
Thank you, Kim. It's been a delight to be with you today.