In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about boundary setting. Many of us who identify as people-pleasers, conflict avoiders or just those who don’t want to rock the boat often find it challenging to say no. My guest this week is Suzanne Culberg, the “Nope Coach” who helps people say no without feeling guilty. Here Suzanne shares her own story of the pivotal moment in which she realized it was time to start setting boundaries. We also talk about actionable, practical steps you can take to make boundary setting feel less scary and shame-inducing. Suzanne brings great humor to this conversation, so whether or not you’ve mastered boundary setting, you’ll likely enjoy the conversation.
About My Guest
Suzanne Culberg is ‘The Nope Coach’ who helps over-givers and people pleasers learn to set boundaries and say 'No' without feeling guilty. Suzanne is known for her straight-talking and her wacky t-shirts. She lives in Sydney, Australia with her husband and 2 awesome children.
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Connect with Suzanne:
Website: https://www.suzanneculberg.com/
Newsletter: https://www.suzanneculberg.com/newsletter
YouTube: youtube.com/@suzanneculberg
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Suzanne. I'm so excited for our conversation today, and I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Suzanne Culberg
Thank you so much for having me. Kim. I'm Suzanne Culberg, if you can't tell by the accent, I'm Australian, so I'm joining you from the future. Future's looking good, everyone. I'm the nope coach, and I help women, primarily women, sometimes men, set boundaries and say no without feeling like a bitch. Or I'm kind of working on that to more like, you know, be that bitch, you know, reclaim that inner badass that you were born to be. Because so often we become conditioned to people please, to say yes, when inside we're screaming No, and then we wonder why we end up staying up late eating chips, and we're trying to find the right plan or the right diet, when really, if we could just say no to the things that we don't want to do, we'd free up so much more energy and capacity to do the things that we do want to do, and put ourselves at the beginning of our to-do list rather than the end because we all know the to-do list is never-ending.
Kim Meninger
Yes, oh my gosh. I can't wait to dive in, and I want to, I want to hear your story. How were you? Were you? Are you a recovering people pleaser? Was did you struggle with this at any point? Or how'd you get here?
Suzanne Culberg
I like to say recovered personally. It's a personal preference because recovering is still tying my identity to that. And yes, I still have moments like we all have, you know, relapse. Nobody's like cured when we weren't broken in the first place. But if you go to my website, suzanneculberg.com you click on the about page, you can see a very brief summary of my people-pleasing ways. And I have a whole episode on my podcast about it. But basically, one day, I was at a toilet stool. This is where people like what? And there was a lady, couple ladies at the sink, and one of them said to the other one, oh, she invited her to an event. And then she's like, Oh, hang on, I forgot you don't drive. Don't worry about it. You know, you won't be able to come. And she's like, Oh, Suzanne will take me. She's my little bitch. And I was just like, you know, when they say the truth hurts, like, I've heard that phrase before, but that was like, a visceral experience of it because I was like, I am her bitch, like, and I think this is what happens with people pleasing. If someone said to you, hey, go do these 50 million things for me, of course, you'd be like, No. But it doesn't start like that. They start with one thing, which is kind of, you know, not that big of a deal. So how this began is, I had a young child, so my daughter, who's now 11, was one, and I went to this mother's group. There's this other woman there. She had no car, and I used to see her catch the bus with her pram. I think you guys call it a stroller. Whatever tied all her groceries to her stroller is getting on the bus. And I was like that, that poor woman like how hard to do your weekly grocery shop with a baby in a pram and public transport. So I said to her, and this is being generous. So people often confuse generosity and over-giving. And I was like, Hey, I go to the shops. We go to shop at the same time. Would you like me to swing by your place, pick you up, get, get, get our groceries together? And she was like, Oh, that would be fabulous. And so we she put her son's car seat next to my daughters. We'd go down. We'd sing, it was fabulous. We put our groceries in the boot, I think you guys caught the trunk of the car. And she'd tie hers off, and I'd leave mine open so we could see whose is who easily without having to go through, you know, whose cereal is this? And that's how it began. Then what started to happen was, once a week or so midweek. Oh Suzanne, I've run out of nappies. Oh, Suzanne, I need some medicine. Can you take me to the pharmacy? And once again, doesn't mind so much here. Okay, yes. And the thing is, once a week became twice a week became three times a week became every other day became, literally, I was her bitch, like her in-laws visited and she said, Could you pick them up from the airport? And you might be like, Listen, don't be such a cow. The airport was over an hour from my house, sure. And then her son's birthday party, she had it at a venue. Can you drive all the stuff down there? Oh, I'm going out with my in-laws. Do you mind washing it up like it just became I was doing this stuff all the time, and inside there was that little resentment seed building, and I've got to own my place in this. I never spoke up. I never said no. I never asked for any money or anything like running to the airport, running this birthday party. You know, I never I never asked. So I think sometimes we can get into our like victim mindset, like they're taking advantage of me. But do you speak up? No, I didn't. Until eventually the bathroom incident happened, and that's when I had my like, penny drop moment, and I was like, holy cow. Um, yeah, I am this person's bitch.
Kim Meninger
Wow. I mean, there's so much about that story that obviously lends itself to this conversation around boundary setting. But before we go there, I just have to say it really disappoints me that there are people out there who are willing to take I mean, I know you said that wasn't taking advantage because you were saying yes, but not only was she asking for all of this, not offering you money, but then saying that about you and when she thought you weren't even listening. I mean, gosh, that so, how ungrateful.
Suzanne Culberg
And I think that's the thing too because sometimes people have often asked me, I don't have this on my website or in my episode. I don't think, did I ever call her on it, like, Did I ever say anything? And I did not as not, not in the way I'd handle it now, because this is the thing, when you have no boundaries, sometimes you can try and set too many boundaries near this kind of pendulum swing. So it wasn't the best. However, she tried to laugh it off and say, Oh, it was only a joke. And I think this is what often happens when people who feel hurt by others behavior try and speak up and say, you know, this is how I feel, or whatever. It gets dismissed. It gets downplayed. Like, isn't that the very definition of gaslighting? Oh, it wasn't that bad. So I think sometimes you know something I've learned now, when people do try and dismiss, play off, laugh off, whatever, and I was like, Oh, I experienced that differently, because something that is hurtful, and we don't get to decide what's hurtful for others, like I'm, I'm very direct, I'm very blunt, and I know that about myself, and I can take most things, but you know, when it is aligned for me and I feel crossed, then I will express it. And then when people come to me now and they ask me for something, like, I've got lots of friends in business. Suzanne, will you let me know what you think of my new website, or whatever, I'll be like, do you want the full Sue's answer? Or do you want, yeah, you've done a great job, not in a sarcastic way, but I know what it's like to slave over something. Like, I remember when I released my book, I was so proud of myself. You gotta choose your audience first person. I gave it. The proof arrived, and I was smelling it, and I was holding it, and I was like, I gave it to my husband, and he sat down, he read the whole thing, cover to cover, so I'll give him credit. And I was like, what did you think? See, I shouldn't have chosen this person. And he looks at me dead pound. He goes, Well, there's no spelling mistakes. That's not the kind of answer I want. So when people ask you for things the same, when someone says, Can you do this? Can you do that also, too, now that I've written a book, people often ask me, Can you proofread my book? In the beginning, I used to say, Yes, I love to read. Some people's books are really boring, like I love them as a person. They're amazing, but it's kind of like reading a scientific manual. So now I'll be like, I'll read a chapter, and then if I love it, I can offer to read more. But otherwise, I'm not trapped into reading something, especially if like I, I'm the kind of person. Don't ask me for my feedback unless you want it. So I'll, I'll soften it with saying, perhaps I'm not the intended audience, which is true, like, if you're writing a scientific piece and you're giving it to me, I'm like, Yes, I'm an ex-scientist, but I left that field because I find it boring. But you know, I think it's communication on both parts, about choosing your audience and asking for the kind of feedback that you want. Because sometimes you just want to be told, I've done a great job, and other times, you know, like with my newsletter list, I tell my audience, kiss my typos like I don't care. You should buy a pack, and you're the grammar police. Um, you know, no.
Kim Meninger
What you're describing is really setting clear expectations up front, right? Because I think there's so many ways in which we can make assumptions about what other people are looking for, or even what they think we're asking of them. And so to just be clear up front, seems like you're going to save so much time and heartache in the long run.
Suzanne Culberg
Yeah, and people are free to say no, and you're free to say no, and then they can ask someone else, or you're not trapped into doing something you don't like. Like, another thing is, I don't ever sell chocolates for my kid's school, the fundraising thing. And the reason is, they're like, $4 a packet. They come home with 50 packets. There's like, what? 200 bucks? If my math is working, well, I've been unwell. I'm not going to let my kids door knock. I don't have any family nearby, so let's face it, I'm going to buy $200 worth of chocolates, like, you know? And then I'm not going to feel well, and then they're just going to jump up. And usually, they're not even a flavor that I like. What's the school trying to do? They're trying to raise money. What do they get? Maybe 20% so I'm like, let's just cut out the middle man. Here's 50 bucks donated. Have fun. And people like, oh my gosh, all this sort of thing. I'm like, no, no, I've literally saved myself 150 and a whole boatload of calories.
Kim Meninger
So what was step one for you? When you, you had this moment where you overheard her say that like it sounds like that was a pivotal moment for you. Then how do you? How do you go from being somebody who you know isn't setting these kind of boundaries to now being so thoughtful about it?
Suzanne Culberg
What tends to happen, as I say, this is where I was like, Do what I say not what I did because I didn't have a me. So what tends to happen is, if you, if you imagine, I usually have a little diagram, but no, it is, but you're like a little stick person, and a boundary is like a little lion around you with a little gate that can let people in and out, if you're a people-pleaser and you've got no boundaries, instead of it being a little lion around you, it's kind of like this sieve, like porous thing, like, you know, you pour rice into to catch the water, and all your yeses and nos are coming in and out, and it's all mismatched, and it's just horrible. So you tend to go from that to the little stick figure with like a barricade all the way around it, saying no to everything, but then nothing can come in and nothing can come out. So you kind of like really, really alone, and then it's like, this kind of sucks because not only you know nobody's bothering you, so to speak, but you also have no connection, no community, no ability to ask for things, and you're becoming this kind of hyper-independent person. And then a lot of people, I see pendulum back and forth between the two. They're like, I'm not happy when I'm boundaried AF, but I'm not happy when I have no boundaries. So What? What? That's the way I went. I was just kind of like, I'm not putting up with this anymore. And I kind of, you know, did a 180 and then instead of going back, and I think looking back through my past, I can see times where I approached this and kind of did this pendulum. But I was like, Okay, this isn't working like, what, what do I want ideally? And I think this is the thing a lot of people-pleasers. We don't know what we want. We've become such chameleons. I could tell you what my husband wants, could tell you what my parents wanted, tell you what my kids wanted. In terms of what I wanted, it's kind of like, have a look at what it is that you want to want. Because if you don't know what you're working towards, how will you know when you get there? So it's kind of a time of, like, self-reflection. And I was like, I don't want friends who are only, like, fair-weather, friends who are only friends with me because of they're taking advantage of me or something, um, I want friends who I can be truly honest with. Like, I'm very introverted, very highly sensitive, socially awkward. So there are times where I'm like, Yeah, let's go do this thing. And then on the day, I'm like, no. So I want friends who I can say I'm having an introvert day, and they're not going to make it mean anything about me or anything about them, or second-guessing, like people I can be truly honest with. And obviously, there's exceptions to that. If you're getting married, like my daughter's graduating primary school next week, I don't want to go to the graduation like you might be like, Oh, what a horrible mum. I want to go see my kid 100% I don't want to sit through the 199 other kids. But in those circumstances, obviously I'll take one for the team. But most of the time, if I'm just I just want people who I can just say, Love you fiercely, not today, and then have them understand that they can leave me alone or just not ghosting, like I if, if I this is another thing I used to have. People would ask them stuff. Ask them stuff, you know, you'd see it on red. See it on red. I'd used to overthink that, whatever. But then then have something, and they come back like they hadn't seen my last six messages, and be like, can you do this for me? And I used to say yes, and now I'll be of the type who'd be like, I'm curious. I've reached out to you a number of times, and you haven't responded, like, what's happening? Not in a rude, interrogatory way, like, you know, tit-for-tat thing, but in a Yo, what's happening here? Sometimes people honestly don't see it. Your kids use your phone. They're playing on YouTube. They leave you on red like you know, or sometimes they couldn't do it. So sometimes people don't know like we're talking you were saying about communication being assuming I like people if they don't, if they're not interested, to be honest and say, Actually, Sue's not interested. I find that way less offensive than pretending you didn't see it, or just thinking not responding is a response. So, but you need to create that and curate that and decide what it is that you like. So basically, these are the kind of communications I have for my friends. I'm like, if I invite you to something, you're not interested. I honestly don't care. Like, we don't have to love the same things, but I do, like a kind of thanks for inviting me. But no or not this time, but an honest, not this time, because that's another thing too. Say you are into Tupperware, Kim. You're like, seriously, come to my tub party and I can't stand plastic. And I'm like, God no, but I don't want to offend you, so I'll be like, Oh, not this time. And every time I say not this time, and you invite me, that gets the point where you're like, actually, I think Suzanne doesn't like me when it's actually Suzanne doesn't like plastic. It's like having this conversation instead of just leaving things kind of in the air. But, but that's what works for me. I'd much rather people be truly honest and then conveying that. And some people will be like, Oh, that's too much for me. It's too confrontational. But then by letting them go, you have space for others to come in who are aligned. So basically, a long answer to your question is, it's a process, but like any process, like, if we're working out our physical body, if we're both couch potatoes, and we decide to go to the gym, and we see the really strong people, like bicep-curling, like 20 or 50 pounds, we know if we go pick that up, that's going to result in injury, if we can even get it off the bench. But when we start doing boundaries, we listen to a podcast like this, and go, Oh, that sounds so easy. I can go do this, but you've had years or decades of doing it this way, so you got to build your reps up in the first few dozen times you say no to someone you've always said yes to. It's not going to feel good. But then it gets to a point where it's just second nature. It's like driving I'm dreading but you know, my daughter's so keen to learn to drive, she's still slightly too young. But you know, when you learn to drive and you're like, seat belt, mirror. Is, now you get in yesterday, we're singing along to the wicked musical, yo soundtrack. And I'm like, where are we going again? Obviously, I was paying attention, but that's taken, you know, 30-20, how many years of driving to get there.
Kim Meninger
That's, oh, I love everything that you said. And I want to, I want to come back to the pendulum for a moment because I think that's where the biggest opportunity lies for us to recognize our own behavior. I think, like, one end of the pendulum where we're over saying yes, is coming from a place of fear of I don't want to let somebody down, I don't want to disappoint somebody, and there's just this fear that the relationship's going to go away. And then the other end of the pendulum is the like, you know, screw this. I don't want to do this anymore, right? Like, you know, and I'm just going to say no, like, you said that barricade comes up. [Yes.] Both of those are coming from an emotional place, right? They're not coming from a place of, like, I'm thoughtful about my needs. I'm going to be respectful to you and I'm going to be respectful to myself at the same time and, and so neither one of them is really going to make you feel good because they're coming from this very reactive kind of fear-based place.
Suzanne Culberg
That is such a great way of putting it. So another way I think about, you know, this pendulum is on one side, you're selfless, like a totally the, the definition of a people pleaser, a doormat, selfless, sure, sure, sure, sure. And then the other side is selfish. It's like the exploding doormat, where you can't take it anymore, where you're like stuff you, what about me on you know, after all, I've done for you. As soon as I catch that thought, or if it ever escapes my mouth in these days, I'm like, I got some work to do, because that's on me, but where we want to look in the middle is self-full, as I said, not from a reactive place, but from a responsive place. What am I creating? And it's funny, my son is the most self-full person I've ever met, and I just love it. He wakes up each day and he's like, wonder what I'm going to get today, but never from a graspy place, but just from a like, Today's a new day. And someone said to him, I can't remember how long ago it was, but they, they said to him, You're so full of yourself. And he just looked him up and down. He's like, Well, who else would I be full of? Like, dead-pan, not being sarcastic or whatever. And I was like, Yeah, because when we override our inner drive to do something that somebody else wants, and then we, we tend to have this unstated checks or balances in our head. You know, that's when the after all I've done for you comes from whereas, instead, like, there are times I said, my daughter's graduation next year's my niece's wedding. There are things that I will go for because they're big deals, graduations, weddings, that sort of stuff. But if it's just, like, a trip to the movies, to me, that's not that big of a deal. And if someone's like, oh my gosh, you let me down. Like, if you've already bought the ticket, and I said I was going to go in five minutes before I'm like, actually, I understand that. But you know, if it's enough, time is given, and I think that's, you know, comes down to the communication piece, but it's from a place because if I'm in a real introvert mode, I'm not gonna be a great company anyway. Like, trust me, you're not going to want to hang around me. I just need to recharge. My social battery is dead, and I'm it's just going to be like communicating in grunts, so it's in service to everybody to not do that. I think that's the self-full place. It's responding to yourself, not reacting to what other people have going on.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and what you're saying too, because this is something that I've had to think a lot about as you know, a people pleaser at various points in my life, too, is, what kind of relationship are you protecting if the other person isn't respectful of what you're describing, right? Isn't willing to say, Oh, she's just not interested in going to the movies, or this isn't the best time for her to go. If they can't handle that, how great of a relationship do you have? Like, what is worth saving?
Suzanne Culberg
Well, I think that's such a great point. Like, there's this thing that literally made the news the other day here in Australia. And I was like, man, it must be a slow news day that this is on, like, the front page of everything. A lady, it was her wedding, and she was vegan, and a bunch of people were unhappy with the food being vegan, so they ordered, like, McDonald's or something. And I was like, this is somebody's wedding. I might not potentially enjoy vegan food, but I'll suck it up for like one meal. It's not like you're asking me to live like that for a month. So I think sometimes people take my self-first thing to be like, you know, it's not being rude. You can totally be accommodating, but it's not putting yourself out, like one meal I can handle. Actually, it's funny, I went to a retreat once didn't realize it was vegan. Like, I didn't actually read the, the dietary part of it. And when I got home, my husband was like, Did you starve? I was like, actually, the food was really good. But I think it's just because him and I are very meat-free potatoes kind of people. So if we were going vegan, we'd literally just be eating, like a lettuce leaf and some carrot and something. Like we would, but, you know, if, but all this to say, yes, be open to new experiences. Yes, sometimes you're going to get yourself into a place where it wouldn't be your ideal. Self-first, isn't like, selfish, but it's also advocating for yourself. So like, with that retreat, it wasn't actually a problem, and I was open to new experiences. But had it been, like, a month long, I would have been like, actually, I want some protein here, but I wouldn't have, like, ordered McDonald's into their retreat. I would have, like, you know, sneakily gone out and had something or whatever. But I think it's not overriding someone else's boundary with your own. It's meeting your needs, but not being a bitch about it.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, no. And I think that's a really important point because this goes back to communication and expectation setting too, right? If you have this friendship where you've been talking to them every day and doing whatever they ask, and then suddenly they ask you for something, you say, actually, I'm an introvert and I need some space, they're gonna be like, where did that come from? Right? Like, she's making this up because she doesn't want right? But if you, if you start a relationship, and I think about this really in the context of work relationships too, because work relationships, we don't have as much freedom to kind of, you know, they're, they're a little bit trickier, but if we start at the beginning with a conversation about what we each need and how we operate and how we can best show up for each other, then it wouldn't come as a surprise if you set a boundary with me because we've already been having this conversation. I know you. I know what the intentions are, and so I'm not going to take it personally, right?
Suzanne Culberg
Yes, and I think to your point there, that's such an excellent point. First thing with boundaries is setting them with people who don't yet know you is the easiest because they don't have any frame of reference, and they don't have any other expectation of you. So trialing this out in places that are new easiest. The second point is there is going to reach a time where it's like, okay, but I need this to change in my workplace, in my family of origin, in my household. The way to navigate that is to firstly, make sure you have everybody's attention. So like, sometimes I'll say stuff to my husband when he's playing the Xbox. I could literally ask him for a jumbo jet, and he'd say, yes. He's not paying me any attention. And then later I'll get all mad at him. Oh my gosh, I asked you. He wasn't paying attention. So it's kind of like I, however, like it doesn't tread on their toes. My husband's even more direct than I am. So I am. So I can say, hey, I want to have a family meeting, and he won't be panicking. Then I'm going to leave him or something like that. So you know, know the people in your life and how you approach this, but firstly, are they in the space to receive? Are they in the space for you to have this conversation? And secondly, if they are the way to lead into it. Up until now, up until now, I've dropped everything. I've taken you to the shops every other day. I've, you know, done this like so you're owning your place in it. And you've said, This is how it's been up until now. Like, I remember my, my parents, my late mum, love her fiercely. Never kind of understood the entrepreneur thing was always used to a nine-to-five, so she would just ring me anytime. And yes, I am working from home and for myself but I'm still working. It doesn't mean I can answer the phone at any time. So to say, up until now, I've always answered the phone, like I've, I've dropped everything, answered the phone because what would happen is, if I didn't answer the phone, she'd keep ringing back, and then I'd get off a call and I'd see like, 17 missed calls, and I'd be like, Oh my gosh, someone's died. Like, that's where my brain goes. So I'm ringing back to the car, and I just want to have yarn so, you know, up until now, this is how it's been, you know. And I understand that you don't quite grasp the you know, because, because you just work for yourself, like you know. But, you know, when I'm working in whatever, what capacity that is? Could be recording a podcast, could be writing a blog, could be checking my emails, could be whatever, you know, I'm not going to answer the phone. What I would prefer, and the thing is, you gotta ask, are they open to this is, if you send me a message, send me a text. And this was a whole thing, my mom couldn't text, but, you know, we got there in the end and say, Hey, I'd love to have a chat today. What time are you free? Or give me what times you're free. And then I can ring in one of those slots, because she wants to connect. I want to connect, but her ringing me 17 times making me think, well, in my head, this is my interpretation of it. Something's gone wrong. Because then when something did go wrong, it's like the boy who cries wolf. So up until now, I've answered the phone at any time going forward. I'd love it if you could send me a text and say, you know, one chat today. When are you free? Or here's the times give me a call. And that that didn't work particularly well for, like, the first dozen times, but it's just reminding because up until now, you have done that, and they're used to that, and sometimes they ring and then they forget, or they don't remember how text or whatever. But also like, not, not my mom, but my kids, example, my children, my daughter, myself, we both have anxiety, social anxiety, which makes schooling difficult for her. So often she would come to me at like, 10 o'clock at night, when I'm just getting ready for bed, and she should have been in bed, but wasn't sleeping, and come and offload her anxiety from the day. Then once I helped her, which take about an hour, I couldn't then go straight to sleep because my emotions are like all stir. It up. So basically, I wasn't getting to bed till like, 1am and I had to say, Honey, up until now, I've been open to talk about your anxiety. Whenever I can't do this at 10 o'clock at night, it's, it's not working for me. So how about we do it after school? It didn't work after school. We tried it, but she wasn't ready yet. She needed to kind of decompress and to process, long story short, and this over a matter of weeks, we now have landed on between dinner and, you know, just, just after dinner. And then for the first few days, I had to say to have you got anything to unpack? You know, now's the time like, remind her, no, no, no, no. And then when she came in crying at 10 o'clock, just be like, I love you. I can't help you. And sometimes we feel so guilty, we're like, oh, I'm the world's worst person, but we need to advocate for ourselves. And if I'm not getting any sleep, I can't get my work done, I can't run my calls, I work early in the morning. It's just not happening. And then over a period of time, we work out this new way together, and now it's been months since she's ever come in at 10 o'clock at night. Same with homework. If they've got a project you, I still remember I've got to project you. I've got to build a diorama. When, by tomorrow, burst into tears, you're going to get a D on that, aren't you? Because you need to learn when to ask. And we teach people how to treat us. And sometimes it's the whole definition of cruel to be kind. And there's been times where I've been like, Oh, this is bad. But they go learn.
Kim Meninger
You’re absolutely right. I think that's a perfect example, and it's an important reminder too, that if you try to set a boundary, but you still keep going back to the old behavior, then nothing changes, right? Because there's no incentive to change. They'll just keep doing it, partly because, like you said, it's habitual. It's just the way they've been doing. And we are creatures of habit. We always do the same things over and over again, and if someone asks us to change, but then doesn't enforce that, right? Why would we do anything different than what's comfortable?
Suzanne Culberg
Yeah, and that's the thing. And sometimes people make it mean all sorts of stories about how the other person doesn't care, or that doesn't is, as you said, part of it's habitual, and then part of it is, well, you know, for her, the best time for her to process her emotions is really late at night. For me, the best time for her to process her emotions would be directly after school. We've both had to compromise with the, you know, after-dinner kind of thing. It's not ideal for me, because I want to switch off and watch a family movie or whatever. It's not ideal for her because for whatever reason, I don't know, not a mind reader, but I think sometimes the thing about a boundary is that it isn't you setting it's not you carving something into stone like Moses and saying from now on you are going to do this because that's some weird kind of controlling behavior. But it's like, this is what I would like. This is what I would like. And then we negotiate, like in my house, it's the shoes off house. So you come to over, you remove your shoes. There's a space for them. We don't have shoes inside. For other people, they for whatever reason, like say, I don't smoke, but if you it's your house and you smoke in it, I'm not going to go and tell you not to smoke in your house. I'm just going to say, hey, let's meet in the park or a cafe or somewhere that I know is anti-smoking because I don't enjoy being in an environment filled with smoke. And I think it's finding that compromise so a boundary isn't like a dictation, but it's a what works, what's can be, you know, as best case, a win, win.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. I think that that compromise piece is really important too, because then the other person feels heard too.
Suzanne Culberg
Yes. [Yeah.] 100% and I think that's the thing too. Like it's working a way that works for both of you and, and also, too, it's like, as I said, choosing your audience is important about who you ask and who you share with. Because I think sometimes we make one person or a couple of people out everything. Like, I've learned anything in business, I don't go to my husband. Love him fiercely. He's traditionally employed. He doesn't get it. His answer almost everything, is, why didn't go get a job? It's like, dude, I'm on my business period. I just need to rant. So then I find another entrepreneurial friend and be like, Hey, you got spoons today. I need to rant. Yep, go for it. So, you know. But if there's anything that I wanted spellchecked, my husband's my man. Like, you know, he could find a missing full stop, or you guys call it a period. It's so funny. My kids hadn't heard that before, and they someone was doing dictation on a TV show, and they're like, literally period, and they're just laughing, like, why are you laughing? And they're like, they're going on about periods. And I was like, yeah, it's a full stop. Oh.
Kim Meninger
Yes. I didn't realize that you called them full stops. I learned something else new today. I love that. And I also want to emphasize here what you said earlier about it being a process because I think it's important that if it doesn't work immediately, that you don't give up, right? Like you said, with your daughter coming back, you know, you might just assume, like, oh, I you know, it's not. This isn't working, so I'm just going to let it go, as opposed to saying, No, this is just the first step, and it's going to take some time.
Suzanne Culberg
So many people say to me that they can't set boundaries with kids. And I was like, I venomously disagree with that. They can take a little bit longer. And finding that middle ground like i. Work from home for myself. My husband's away a lot, so I solo parent a lot, and I still run a business and like, I'm recording this for me. Early in the morning my kids are getting ready for school. They're allowed to come in here if there's blood or bone but apart from that, they are not. And the thing is, you've gotta learn, as you said, when you make I remember the very first time I was going to work from home and they were actually here. They weren't in daycare, or they weren't at school or whatever. I was like, Please don't interrupt me unless it's important. And they're both nodding, going, mommy, okay, got it. Not even five minutes into working, my daughter comes bursting in. I was like, Is it important? She's like, yes. I'm like, what is it? I can fit 27 blueberries in my mouth. I'm like, Okay, we need a different definition of what important is. I think this is all along we assume. And sometimes we assume, like, like, globally, we have different things, words for things, and sometimes we assume, because in our heads we're like, okay, blood or bone. But I haven't actually said that. Like, if there's an emergency, come here, I will 100% be there. But what is an emergency for me isn't the same thing as what's an emergency for somebody else. And I know that they're safe, and I know that, you know they're looked after, but it's, you know, exploring the boundaries, and also what they're allowed to do, like they're allowed to have breakfast like cereal while we're on this call. They're not allowed to turn on the stove, not without me, right there. So I think, you know, it's, it's these learning things because I can just imagine, I can, I can think of a number of times it's like, what were you thinking? Oh, I was helping. And it's like, yeah, no.
Kim Meninger
Oh, that's so true because we do. We all interpret things through our own filters and we make assumptions that everybody has the same filters that we do. So when in doubt, clarify. And I think that's a big we're talking about, right?
Suzanne Culberg
And I know you talk a lot about on your show in the workplace. So as I said, my husband's traditionally employed since COVID. He's worked half from home, half in the office, and our offices are close to each other. I don't try and listen in all your stuff, but sometimes, you know, you just what you hear. And not recently, I heard him on a call, and he's like, Okay, so what's the priority? I can't hear the other end because he's got earbuds, and he's like, let me just interrupt you right there. The definition of priority is the number one thing, like the first thing that you want me to do, then they're going on again. And he's like, I'm going to interrupt you again. Like he's polite, but he's direct. If you don't tell me which priority you want me to do, I'm just going to pick the one that's most fun for me. It was so good and so clear. He's like, I work until four. These are the things you want me to do. I can do one. Which one is it? Whereas so often, as people-pleasers, we stay back, we stay late, we're always on our phone, we're always connected. And especially, you know, business owners and stuff too. You've gotta have the biggest boundaries because if, if givers don't have boundaries, takers don't have any. So like, I don't actually use social media in my business at all. I think unsolicited DMS are the dick-pics of social media world, and I can't stand it, but I do really clearly articulate on all my platforms how you can get in contact with me and some people like, on my personal Facebook, it says this is my personal profile. If you want to get in contact with my business, it links my contact page. The number of people who literally comment on that and go check your others folder. I will not I will delete your comment, and I'll ignore you. Because if you, if you haven't given the time of the day to how I've clearly stated how to get in contact with me, I don't want to talk to you about being on the number one SEO on, you know, YouTube thumbnails or whatever nonsense, you're going to try and sell me because most of the time, that's what they are anyway, people trying to sell you stuff.
Kim Meninger
That’s right. Oh, this is a fantastic conversation, Suzanne, and this is something that we can all benefit from, no matter where we are in this journey. Because I know you said recovered, but there's still like little points in time where I think that we're all there, even, even those of us who are most comfortable with this, still find ourselves struggling from time to time. And so this is just such a great way of thinking about it, and you've made it feel more accessible, and I think it is. It's a very intimidating thing to think about. And so for anybody who wants more of you, where is the best place for them to find you?
Suzanne Culberg
Just quickly, in terms of the recovered and stuff, when you have a setback or a sleep or whatever, I just really invite you instead of beating yourself up, because the thing we tend to go, I haven't changed. I'm all the same. I thought I was better. Here it is again. It's just kind of an invitation to where you need to shore up your boundaries. That's all. It is just a little invitation. Little invitation. It happens. You know, best place to find me, my website, suzanneculberg.com, S-U-Zed-A-Double N-E-C-U-L-B-E-R-G. And if you're very much a rebel like me, when you go there, you'll see that don't click. That's actually where my contact page is. It's deliberate. So you can feel free to send me a message through there. I also have Start Here page that goes through all the stuff I have. I have a podcast, I have a newsletter list. I have all the things. And I've recently started on Patreon, like I know a lot of people are moving away from Patreon, and here I am starting it. I love it. I've got a private podcast there that I'm hesitantly going to call the shit show. I. But it has no name so far. It's just Patreon. But yeah, I'd love for you to check that out.
Kim Meninger
Excellent. Well, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes as well. And thank you so much for, for being here, but also for doing this work. I think it's really important.
Suzanne Culberg
Thank you so much. It's been fabulous.