In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about reframing our mindsets. Much of our behavior and beliefs are guided by the stories we tell ourselves. So, if we want to create change, we need to examine those stories. My guest this week, Tammy Heerman, shares her perspective on the power of women’s empowerment programming and the value of sharing our stories with one another. We also talk about the freedom that comes with the understanding that we all, regardless of gender, share the same fears. What’s different is how we manage them. With this awareness, we can make more empowered choices about how we show up in our workplaces.
About My Guest
Tammy Heermann is an award-winning leadership expert sought out by some of the world’s top companies for her programs that accelerate women’s advancement. In 2021, she published Reframe Your Story: Real Talk for Women Who Want to Let Go, Do Less and Be More-Together urging women to challenge the current narratives reinforced by society, systems and those of your own making. For over twenty years, she has helped change thousands of mindsets around what it takes to lead, both self and others. While having impact in the C-suite, nothing makes her happier than pushing up-and-coming leaders to break through organizational and self-imposed barriers to reach their potential. Tammy transforms her audiences with alternating moments of humor and heartache as she shares stories of her own journey from senior consultant to senior vice president. She is a perennial mentor with Women in Communications and Technology and is also addicted to the Peloton, Pilates and perogies. She lives in Toronto with her husband and daughter.
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Connect with Tammy:
Website: www.TammyHeermann.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tammyheermann
Instagram: @tammy_heermann
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Tammy, I could not be more excited for this conversation. I've been looking forward to it since you and I first connected. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Tammy Heermann
Sure. Thanks, Kim. I'm excited for today to Tammy Herrmann, I am on a mission to have the world replace the age-old stereotype of think manager, think male with think leadership, think female. And so I'm lucky enough to spend my days working within for women, the advancement of women in the workplace and kind of reshaping their opportunities. And also the managers that support them. I think we'll probably get into this, but organizations do not spend enough time really working with the managers that didn't need to support women, and of course, all minority groups, but that's me. I spend my time keynotes workshops, coaching and loving every minute of it.
Kim Meninger
And I love, I love the think leadership, think female and I would love to hear more about how you got here. What's your own story of like, what led you down this path?
Tammy Heermann
Yeah, absolutely. I kind of was a bit of a job hunter. So by way of background, I come with a business degree. And I really specialize my graduate studies kind of in human resources and change management. But then I kind of hopped around from sector to sector and job to job and, and what I realized is a person who became my boss, and is now a dear friend said to me, Wow, no organization could keep you really interested long enough, could they? And that's kind of one of the moments where I went, Yeah, I really love learning. And I love helping other people’s kind of, you know, embrace kind of learning and change. And so that's kind of how I got into the world of training and development, leadership development. And then one day, I was leading the practice at a global human capital consulting firm for leadership development. And my CEO at the time came to me and said, Tammy, my buddy, you know, has this daughter and she just bought this organization that does, you know, motivational luncheons for women, but she really wants to help, you know, move the numbers, and they need a leadership development partner. So make it work. And he just left my desk. So I was stuck with this project, to make it work of something that didn't fit at all into our business model. This was a kind of a bums-in-seat, you know, business of training for women. We didn't do that work, we did high-end consulting. And, you know, here I was, and so I was kind of having the Oh, great moment. But then as I worked with the women, as I started into the research, as I lived the same journey, as I was hearing from all the other women, you know, trying to get promoted with a toddler clinging to your leg and juggling work and home and everything, you know, crying in the bathroom on occasion. It really became a passion for me, because I thought it can't be like this anymore. And we can't feel so alone. And so that's really what started my, my work, my dedicated work in working for the advancement of women.
Kim Meninger
I just everything you said is so familiar. And I wonder, you know, it's interesting, I started my career in the high-tech industry in the late 90s. And left when my older son was born, I decided to take a change in direction into entrepreneurship. And I wonder, you know, do you feel like we're making progress? Like, how would you assess today's environment? Right? And I know, it's a big question, but I'm just curious because there are times when I feel like doing this work is so inspiring. And other times when I just want to curl up in the fetal position and be like, Oh, this is so hard.
Tammy Heermann
Yes, yes, yes. And yes. So do I feel like we're making progress? So the numbers would, would say no, right? If you look at any of the metrics, certainly you and I would, would account for North America, but you know, anywhere kind of in the Western world, and actually anywhere, the numbers would say, No, we're not we slide up, we slide down are still only about, let's say 20 to 30%, for most of the world. So the numbers would say no, but I think what has changed is our willingness to have open dialogue around, around human things, you know, everything from starting the pandemic with mental health to menopause, which has become a mainstream, you know, topic now, and thanks to all the good work that's coming out of the UK, but I think we're making progress on our ability to kind of have conversations about what we want the world to look like. So is progress fast enough? Absolutely not. I think both you and I would agree with that. But I feel we're making baby steps. And really what other choice do we have Kim? You know, in terms of kind of keeping going?
Kim Meninger
I agree. And I think that is the way that I think about it. What keeps me sane is that it is beyond our individual control to a large extent how fast the system changes move, but where I try to focus is on personal power, and what we can be doing as individuals, the choices that we make, about whether to stay how to show up how to respond to different kinds of situations. And, and I wonder if you have thoughts on what are the this is a big question, too, so we can break it down. But what are the biggest opportunities that you see for women today in terms of sort of embracing their own power in the recognizing that progress is too slow? Recognizing that it's really hard. It's the navigating these environments can be very challenging? What kinds of things do you generally advise people to do or think about to feel more personally in control of their own situations?
Tammy Heermann
And absolutely, so in your question, I think you hit on a couple of critical things and that I resonate with and why keeps me in this word, too, is when I can work with individuals or small groups. And they can feel that shift in control that they feel that they have some control and choice. And so right now, I'm actually working with, with eight women right now who are working one of the big four consulting firms, and they're up for, you know, either partner, manager or managing director. And the biggest shifts I see in working with them is reframing their mindset around things like, you know, I have to wait to be told to speak up, I have to, I don't know, as much as the other people in the room. I'm not in that position of power yet. So what you know, what right do I have? And then on the other hand, everyone's saying, you know, they're their leaders, and managers are saying, well, we're just waiting for her to step up. And so there's this disconnect between waiting for permission and waiting to speak up. And I experienced that myself to remember with an old boss, well, I was just waiting for you to do this. And, and so when I talk to them about reframing their mindset, it's about understanding, you know, what are you what are you waiting for? And you know, and you have so much expertise and wisdom and information, and, and all of that to offer right now. And so we're I derive my pleasure. And I think where we can make the biggest movement personally, is, the one woman said to me, I realized as I started to pay attention, that they don't really know the answer, either, you know, they're just leading the conversation. They're just gonna, you know, she's looking at these partners going, they actually don't know as much as I thought they did. And it was such a big aha for her to realize that but until she started looking for it, and how to kind of navigate situations where we're facilitating a conversation versus expected to know the answer. That was a huge shift for, for many of them actually.
Kim Meninger
I love that I've heard similar comments from people that I've worked with, as well about, wow, they're actually they're not as smart as I thought they were, when they get out of their own head and start paying attention to what's actually being said, it's like, oh, there is such thing as stupid questions. But one of the things that I think about a lot is how much of this is rooted in socialization of girls, right, of being obedient, following the rules, really kind of understanding your place, that whole theme of waiting to be invited into the conversation instead of just be taking that initiative, I think traces back so far into our early childhood, and just implicit and explicit messages that we got from our parents from society at large. And so it seems simple to say, just speak up, right? Just do it. But on the other hand, there's a strong force that says, this is just not the right thing for me that they're going to I'm going to be punished in some way for doing it. I'd love your thoughts on the mindset piece because I think this is so important is how do we tell ourselves a different story?
Tammy Heermann
Yeah. So what, what I love what you said about the socialization piece is that I've been using that now that understanding as a relief for people saying, Okay, and so I'll continue with the example I remember the women asking a male senior partner in the room, he's about to retire. And so you know, they were soaking up his wisdom. And they said, well, You tell us about a time, you know, when you were afraid. And he looked at them, he said, every single day, I'm afraid that I'm not going to bring the money in to feed the partnership that I'm not. And their faces kind of they didn't expect that from, you know, an old gray-haired, male, almost on pawn retirement partner. And so what I talked to women about is the socialization piece. Every everyone, nearly everyone feels fear, nearly everyone has this impostor syndrome. And we've just been socialized to deal with a bit differently. So for girls, stay back, stay safe, don't speak up. Whereas boys, if they feel the fear, push through, be brave, man up, all of those things. But we both have the fear. And so to me, that should be a sense of relief. And so reframing is does this story serve me anymore? How do we all learn to kind of push through that fear in ways that is certainly authentic to ourselves in terms of our own timing and pacing, but not to say I'm not going to do it at all? And so I think I've been kind of reframing the sense of differences in socialization around let's take this as good news because we I think we thought inherently, well, if they're doing it, then they must be better, smarter this that, and that's not the case at all. They're just pushing through the fear faster. That's all. So let's, let's go, oh, okay, I can do that, too. It doesn't mean inherently, that there's something inferior about me, which I think is how we feel a lot of the times and certainly society is telling us that.
Kim Meninger
Oh, that is such a great reframe. I love that as understanding the socialization is almost liberating, right? I'm just so, I wish there were more of those gray-haired men willing to say that. [I know] Because I think that's and that goes back to what you're talking about with the dialogue about human things, right? Because I do think one of the challenges is that we often sit in these rooms, and everyone's putting on a brave face. And we can't see what's actually going on behind the scenes. So we're making these assumptions that everyone else is so much smarter and more confident, and everyone else has it all figured out. And there must be something wrong with me. Whereas that vulnerability, that willingness to say no, actually, I'm afraid to, and I just manage it differently means we can just accept at face value that the fear is going to be there. [Yeah.] And then we get to make choices about what we do with that.
Tammy Heermann
Exactly, exactly. And that's why and I don't know if you experienced this, Kim, but so many organizations still ask me, you know, do we need these separate programs for women? And isn't it kind of counter-intuitive kind of separating them out when we're trying to integrate everyone and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And, and, yes, we do need these programs, because these are the kinds of conversations that I think we have, and are willing to have it in a room full of women, like nothing is better than in a room full of women, and you're reminding me of a story. And I tell this in my book that there was a woman kind of standing up, she was kind of giving a little presentation, I was having her give. And all of a sudden she just stopped and started crying. And so you know, I stopped the video recording and I said, what story? Are you telling yourself right now? And to your point of we compare ourselves and she was looking around and she said, I don't even know what I'm doing here. You know, I don't feel like I'm the same leader as her and her and her like, I don't even know what I'm doing here. And the women are all just staring at her going, Are you kidding me? And, and this one woman in sales who of course, is more gregarious and open and said, I sell things. I lead a team that sells things, you invent things, she was one of the scientists at the organization. And if she didn't exist in her role, they wouldn't have things to sell and market and you know operationalize. And so I think these kinds of conversations are so critical, and we need to create environments to have them to have more vulnerable human conversations to get these mindset pieces out.
Kim Meninger
I couldn't agree with you more. And I do a lot of women's specific programming to in the power of normalizing and sharing in those very vulnerable candid ways. It cannot be overstated. I think that one of the biggest benefits is people walk away feeling like it's not just me, and I get to see it and it's just so interesting to, to create space for someone to say, you like I look at you, person, right and then we all realize like I often joke that part of managing our self-doubt and impostor syndrome is revealing the absurdity of our thinking and that I think ties back to the stories we tell ourselves, right? Because they're so deeply ingrained in us, we accept them at face value, we don't really take them out and examine them. It's just kind of our operating system. And then once we start saying it out loud, we think like, wait a second, that's kind of sounds ridiculous when I say. And when we hear it, we get to have a conversation with somebody else, it updates, it gives us a chance to think about it from a new perspective.
Tammy Heermann
Absolutely. Well, and you know, he kind of asked me about mindset earlier. And this is where I think the training and development learning development world leadership developed world has failed, is that we all go into these workshops are these experiences, and we're taught skills, and we check the box, and we go home. And what I mean by that, and I've, I've been in these workshops, too, you sit there and you look at the facilitator, and you go, I could never do it like you, I can never be like you and all these stories, like, I could never do that I'd never say that I never asked that person for a meal, whatever the content is, and we self-talk ourselves into going, I'm just going to sit through this day or two days, or half a day or two hours. And then I'll be on my way, and my manager will know I attended and good for me. And rather than saying, Okay, let's take this topic, whatever it might be, and say what are all the what was the term you used? I love the absurd, absurdity? You're thinking about this and, and I laughed, because back to my opening story, when I said, you know, I started doing partnering this with this women's organization. Well, I taught a workshop on networking, and I'm one of the most introverted people that you can meet. And I, and I started off by saying, Hi, I'm Tammy and I hate networking. And they all just stared at me and panic thinking, Oh, my God, I just paid for this workshop and what? And I said, if you didn't feel the same way, I suspect you wouldn't be here. So I'm going to talk to you if you'd hate. If I was someone up here who said, I love it. It's awesome. Go talk to people work the room as a you'd hate that. So let's talk about all the things you're doing yourself. Let's talk about how people like us, who would rather hide in the corner by the buffet table, do this, right? And I think that's where we need to take these experiences and first start with, Okay, what's your values, beliefs and mindset telling you as you walk into these situations, that's where the learning has to start. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
Kim Meninger
Oh, you're so right. Like, I've been talking about that. When I talk about my work lately, the way I've been describing it is, I think about it through the lens of what makes it hard to be human, right? And I say almost exactly what you just said, which is there's so many trainings that are focused on skill building, but I think about it from the lens of Yeah, I know what I'm technically supposed to do but what do I do when I know that but I still have I feel like an impostor, I get really anxious, I don't feel psychologically safe enough to do it? Let's get to the real heart of what's going on. We all know how to learn, we wouldn't be in the workplace, if that weren't true. We all have intelligence. This is not about intelligence. This is about mindset. This is about how we see ourselves in relationship to those around us.
Tammy Heermann
Oh, Kim, you and I need to do a project together, it would be so fun.
Kim Meninger
I know, I know. You’ve got my wheels turning. This is such a great conversation. I got to ask you this because I think this is important, where do men fit into this discussion?
Tammy Heermann
Hmm. Well, everywhere, right? So, so I'd start off by saying, you know, and work with the organizations in the managers who support them. And if we're being honest, if we're working in most organizations, when we talk to kind of the management and leadership, it tends to be very heavily male-dominated. And so I think the days of, you know, putting people through unconscious bias workshops, and all that, like it's not, it's not working. And so some of the organizations that I've seen do this best, don't even, you know, broadcast that they're, they're doing things unnecessarily in the diversity and inclusion realm, they just bake it into everything they do as a leadership expectation. So for example, if they're doing a hiring workshop, then they just kind of re-forecast that and they don't go and now we're going to talk about the diversity, you know, like, everything is baked right in, in terms of this is how we do things. So we really need to kind of recalibrate what leadership expectations are, and not, you know, make big fanfare of it, just this is the way it is. And I think for men, so one of the most seminal experiences I had is it was this was a big pharmaceutical company. And again, the vast was probably about the top 100 leaders, the vast majority were men. And when I kind of shared with them, some of the research and so let's go back to networking as an example. You know, and I said that you know, women and men certainly research shows build networks differently for women it's more psychosocial support for men. It's more you know, this and that and, and I said, I've had some compelling research that talked about women don't like to leverage their networks that in fact, you know, phoning up someone and saying, Hey, can you introduce me to them? Or can you do me a solid or whatever it is, is abhorrent, there was actually a German executive study that used the word unmoralisch. So it's immoral to do that. Well, is it? No, it's not immoral. Of course, it's not. But this is kind of how we're thinking about it. And this, the CEO, was just flabbergasted. And he stood up and he said, my commitment today, to this leadership team is to bring you all into my networks. He said, It never even dawned on me that the people in this room aren't doing the same things that I'm doing, it never dawned on me that you wouldn't just asked to come to a meeting or pick up the phone and asked to be or this or that, or whatever it may be. He said, I had no idea. And see, so I will actively open and bring you to these things. So I think part of it is about how do we just talk about what some of the research has shown about how we approach these things differently, why we do how we've been socialized differently? And what impact it's having. I'm sure a lot of you know, some people will say, No, I don't believe that whatever. This is crap. But I think the majority want to help so many senior men have said to me, Tammy just told me what to do. Just tell me how to help. Once they understand what the implications are.
Kim Meninger
I hear the same thing. I completely agree. And I think that that is the missing piece is how do we create space that still protects the sort of sacred nature of these women's groups and programming that we're talking about, but also gives men a window into what our stories are? Because you're absolutely right, that it's not just about us, it's if I have a manager who doesn't understand that, I'm not speaking up in a meeting, not fit, because I don't have anything to share, or, you know, I'm not as engaged as my counterparts. It's because I'm not quite sure what the appropriate protocol is. That might be misinterpreted by my manager as lack of ambition or lack of commitment, or lack of readiness for that next opportunity. Whereas if my manager understands, like the CEO that you're describing, no, actually, there may be a different reason why she's behaving that way. And maybe by, by proactively inviting her and letting her know that I understand this, that, that will change that dynamic. And so making sure that they have enough visibility because so often we're having conversations with each other, and we're all nodding our heads, and we're getting so much value from it. But if they don't see it, they can't understand or change it.
Tammy Heermann
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you, you kind of asked earlier about kind of how we begin to change our mindsets. Of course, there's, there's a big question. But I one of the things that I've been having the women experiment a lot with, and I use it myself, is, you know, first kind of setting your intent for even a conversation, we go into a million conversations in meetings a week. We're constantly that's the, that's the format of our work lives. It's conversations. And so what's my intent for that, and so many times we're focused on kind of the content. And we need to be focused on the how, it's not just what I want to say, but how I want to be. And I use a lot of mantras, and I don't care what you call them, talk tracks, slogans, whatever resonates with the person, but just that extra little, saying, I belong here. I know stuff, you know, you're not going to throw me whatever it is, whatever you need for that situation, to keep that in our mind. And then focus on how we want to be not just what and the content because we're so focused on trying to sound smart or say the right thing. And really, we need to just boy, our, our power to, to be there as an equal.
Kim Meninger
You know, you’re like you're my brain twin. Yeah. I love this because you're absolutely right. It's, and I think this goes back to just some of the, the socialization because I think women are really great students, for the most part, right? Do really good. Okay, I know that the topic of this meeting is going to be “x” so I'm going to cram as if I'm preparing for an exam. I'm going to just study so that I know all of it. You know, I'm not going to be blindsided by a question I can't answer even though that's not realistic, but that's where the focus lies as opposed to as you're saying, What's my intention for this meeting? What how do I want people to experience me in this conversation? What, do what… What is my purpose for being in this conversation in the first place? Because for me, so often I was focused on what I didn't know, and how much smarter all of the people around me were. But I felt so inadequate when I finally realized like, Oh, I'm not here to compete with Bob from engineering. That's his job. Right? That's, that's not why I'm here. And so to really try to zoom out a little bit and take that meta-level view, as opposed to just the what, what is the substance of the meeting, as you're talking about?
Tammy Heermann
Absolutely. And yeah, and I've seen, and I love this shift when the women I work with realize that great, like, it's so empowering for them. Oh, my God. Okay, I really only have to say a couple of things. And I really just have to, you know, facilitate, I just have to ask a good question sometimes or right? And to when that pressure is off? Oh, I love seeing that.
Kim Meninger
Yes, exactly. And I see this all the time, too, because every new challenge feels like the big one, right? Well, I've survived all the other ones. But this is going to be the time this right, that brings me down. And, and I think it often gets tied to these things like, oh, do I know enough? Am I prepared enough? And one of the things that I will say is you may not know everything about the topic that you're just entering into now the conversation you're entering into now, but here are three things you definitely already know how to do. You know how to learn, you know how to problem solve, and you know how to be resourceful. You wouldn't have gotten to where you are without those three things. And so if you don't know, the answer to one question, it doesn't mean that you don't belong in that room, right? You can find it, you can figure it out. And so I think it's really redefining what success looks like, in the moment.
Tammy Heermann
I've been doing a really fun activity with, with people lately, and maybe your listeners will want to try it for themselves. And, and I call it that kind of a rapid-fire strengths piece. So you know, you just mentioned three really great ones for someone, I challenge. And sometimes if we're online, I'll have them do it in the chat. And I'll say, what are you an expert in? And they just depend on order, because all of a sudden, we think of Nobel Prize-winning Olympic gold medal, you know? And it's like, no, no, no, of the handful of people that you meet in your area, you can confidently say you're the top one or two out in the world, in your sphere of it, you know? And so what are you an expert at, okay, and then they'll put something and like, again, again, and again. And I just have them rapid fire rapid-fire, things that you can confidently say, and even, you know, things like, people can show me a color and all tell them what it's called. Open the fridge, I can make you a gourmet meal out of anything you have. But you know, like, and again, and again and again. And the purpose is to really rewire our brains. And I think you mentioned it, that we always go to what we don't know how the insecurities we do feel versus you know, I'm amazing. I'm this, I'm that I have all these things, and I'll figure it out. I will figure it out. And it's not the end of the world. And, and so I love that kind of brain rewire, rewiring exercise to kind of get us in that place of feeling really great about what we are.
Kim Meninger
And I love the rapid-fire nature of it too because it almost forces you not to second guess. Because I think women often say, Well, what other people say I'm an expert at this, right? Like try to be really precise and quantify like, what is my actual expertise, especially like you said, compared to these Nobel Prize winners, but you're right, and I love that it, you know, just what do I do better than, than most right? Keep it keep it simple. But I think too, that there's this feeling of, oh, well, that just sounds like noxious, it sounds cocky and arrogant as opposed to recognizing as No, if I know what I do uniquely, well, then I can bring that and be of greatest service to my team, right? I can. And I always like to think about that distinction between service and ego. This is not about me being wonderful or thinking that, you know, having everyone else think I'm wonderful. It's about how can I? Everybody wants to feel like they're making an impact. Everybody wants to feel like they're, they're doing something valuable. Well, I can't effectively do that if I don't know what I uniquely bring into this, you know, sort of puzzle.
Tammy Heermann
Yeah, that's one of the other areas certainly when I'm working with high potentials, and they're kind of looking for that next step, that ability to kind of speak in the eye and own their you know, strengths and that is such a hard thing. More so for women to do and so yeah, we do a lot. We do a lot of practicing and retraining of the I and we and all of that good stuff. Because I think so often we think well we're throwing our team under the bus or others if, if we don't give credit to the team, and I said, Well, of course, you're gonna give credit and of course, and of course, and of course, and in that moment, they're not up for promotion you are. And so yeah, I spent a lot of time with those kind of looking for that next step to really step into that place of discomfort. But you know, what's neat. And Kim, I don't know if you've come across this, but I have seen a lot of interesting research that men also feel discomfort in, in that sharing of strengths and accomplishments. And, and yet again, socialization would say, Well, it's a benefits so do it anyway. And so they do it anyway. And so I have seen that this isn't an area of comfort, necessarily for anyone, and yet we look at others and go, Wow, they're so comfortable. And sometimes it does feel arrogant when we kind of see others do it in a way, but then let's call it for what it is arrogance, conceit. There's a, there's a difference in the small people who are doing that versus confidently owning your capabilities. So I think there's a lot to kind of rethink there as well.
Kim Meninger
I love that. I think that's really important for us to know, because one of the things that I often say too, is that we confuse confidence with strength and arrogance. And that when you see people show up in this way of just sort of obnoxiously, tooting their own horn, or bragging, whatever you want to call it. That's not confidence, right? True. Confidence is quiet. If you know what you're good at, you're humble enough to recognize where your strengths lie and where they don't, you don't have to be flexing your muscles and sort of peacocking around in front of other people, right? And so, so I think to that, to not confuse that with sort of positive strength. It's a, it's a reflection of their own insecurities. And I think that just hearing that research, kind of makes you think like, oh, no, I get it, right, because we haven't really been taught or we don't have great role models for what productive positive self-promotion looks like that we're all uncomfortable. And we're all trying to figure it out in different ways. And we still haven't quite cracked the code yet.
Tammy Heermann
I actually wrote a really neat article on that, and people can find it on, on LinkedIn, after speaking with a colleague of mine, who is a great kind of former executive and coach, and he was talking to me about humility. And when I looked it up, humility is actually rooted in, in self-confidence. And yet, somehow, we've turned it into a word, be humble to combat arrogance and conceit. And it's actually the root of the word is not that at all. And so I forget what I wrote. But I put some, like arrogance has shamed humility. And really, humility is a, it's a, it's not a thing that needs to rectify arrogance, it's a thing we need to bolster our own confidence. And even understanding that it's like, wow, that's really interesting, how we've taken this, this word and kind of, you know, shaped it for the very few who need, who need to be humbled. And of course, we know those that are have got bravado, actually are at the root likely self, deprecating it not as confident as they should be. So they're putting on that bravado. Yeah, it's a really interesting piece that I got from my colleague and kind of decided to write about.
Kim Meninger
Okay, I can't wait to check that out. Because, you know, the common theme that runs through everything that we're talking about is just that, that don't accept what you see at face value, because there's so much more complexity to it. And we're all struggling. Each and every one of us, we have our own set of fears and insecurities. Many of them overlap. Many of them are rooted in our own personal journeys and experiences. We see the world through our own filters. But the more we understand that we're all doing this, right, the less it feels like a "me" problem and more of a human thing that we just have to, you know, we have to manage. [Yeah] It doesn't make us inferior or deficient in some way.
Tammy Heermann
We no one else is helped though it who so who's figured this out? Athletes, professional performers, like they know, their head game, the stories, they tell themselves all of that their mindset is probably even more important than their physical game or performance. And that's what's led to performance coaches, and, you know, sports psychologists and all that. And you only have to look in any news feed to see all of the athletes and performers that have pulled out because of their head game. And it's like, okay, so we get that we all go Oh, yeah, we understand that. Why don't we not think it, it works for us in our office cubicles in our basement offices, and, of course, the same concepts apply. And so for me again, that was a big relief to say Oh, Okay, you know, the, the tennis pros and the pop stars. And I think pulling out that chin that gymnasts. And that should make us go, Oh, okay. It's okay for all of us to examine our mindsets and our stories and their pressures and all of these things. So again, I think we can learn from those that are a lot more public about it now. And I'm not just talking about mental health, I'm talking about, like, literally getting yourself in the game for your performance, whether that's a presentation, or a conversation with your boss, or whatever it may be. And so I think that's kind of been a cool thing that, that's come out of these last few years as well.
Kim Meninger
I couldn't agree with you more. And I think that you're right to just expand the way we see those stories, and not as sort of these isolated incidents in this other sphere, but a sort of a universal message about humanity. And how can we think about that in terms of our own experience? Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Tammy, I could, I could seriously talk to you all day. And we will definitely continue our conversation offline, I'm sure. But in the meantime, where can people find you? If they want to learn more about you see what you see your work? You wrote a book too.
Tammy Heermann
I did. And it's called reframe your story. It's real talk for women who want to let go do less and be more together. And so you hear me use the word reframe a lot. That's a lot of what I work with, but that's available on Amazon and all major bookstores. You can find me at Tammy herrmann.com. That's two E's two ends or on LinkedIn or Instagram. So yeah, I'd love to connect with the, with people.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Thank you so much. This has been such an inspiring conversation. I'm so grateful to have you here.
Tammy Heermann
Me as well. Thanks so much, Kim.