In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we move beyond impostor syndrome and talk about the effects of childhood pain and trauma on our experiences as adults. While it’s easy to say that, “the past is the past,” the reality is that our childhood experiences stay with us into adulthood. This week, I talk with Avi Wolfson about his journey to heal his childhood wounds, including the power of leveraging resources to help him do this important work. We also talk about how to share our authentic selves while protecting ourselves in the workplace. And, we talk about the importance of failure to achieving success.
About My Guest
Avi Wolfson leverages a career as a licensed realtor, professional salesperson, 3 time axe throwing champion, and best-selling author to help audiences directly as a professional speaker. Wolfson, an expert in resilience, entrepreneurship, and self-discovery, inspires others with his story of overcoming childhood trauma and mental health challenges and finding work-life balance. In addition, Wolfson is a proponent of failure as part of the success process, giving back positivity into the universe by paying it forward. Audiences and critics find Wolfson “creative, humble, honest and smart” and adept at growing organizations by “helping people into better positions where they’re happy and flourish.”
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Connect with Avi:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aviwolfson/
Website: https://aviwolfson.com
Website: https://allstarparent.substack.com
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Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
So welcome, Avi. It is such a pleasure to meet you. I'm really excited for our conversation today. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Avi Wolfson
Fantastic. Thank you so much for having me, Kim. It's truly an honor and a pleasure to speak on your podcast. So I came on this podcast and I know that you speak to your audience a lot about impostor syndrome and confidence, which are both things that I've really grappled with for most of my life. And they're really important because things like that negative self-talk, things that sabotage things that cause us to cause her own havoc and sabotage ourselves out of prime opportunities. And so it's super, super important. This topic is really meaningful and important to me, as somebody that's struggled with it and has overcome adversity. And I think that it's important to recognize this struggle, and that we talk about it and how we can get through that. And where I'd like to start is in childhood, because that's where this all starts, right? What happens to us in our childhood, never, we don't leave that behind. Yes, it's in our past, guess where we grow, and we become adults, but there is an inner child within all of us. And what that means is that there's that, that kid, that child that endured certain things, and we take those parts of our earlier in our life with us, and they exist within us. And that can be shown in a number of different ways. And I read a really good book recently, that gave me a lot of clarity and guidance. And it's called Soul Blazing. And it's by Lisa Heisha. And she talks about the seven different types of imposters that we, that exist that we have and exemplify at times in our life. And when I heard these, I was like, right away, I was like, Oh, my friend is that imposter, I was able to pinpoint it. Like, he's the ego test. Now I get it. But it is really interesting to think of it in those terms. And to also have a framework, which was really valuable to me, which she taught, I don't want to give away her whole book, but she talks about the sole framework, which is stop, observe, understand and liberate, because she's all about taking the masks that we put on. And they're the victim, ego test, seductor, Joker, fixer, overthinker, and judge. So these are like the common masks that we we put on, right, because we have things within us, we have a pain or something we haven't fully fleshed out and work through. So we put on this face of this joker, somebody who jokes, but behind that mask is a lot of pain, right? That exists within us. And we, we use these masks as ways to cope with it. But with that said, we also hinder ourselves from growth, right? Because that isn't who we actually are, we want to be our own authentic selves. And this is something I've struggled so much with Kim because growing up for me, it was like, I didn't feel that I was allowed to be myself, I had to do things I wasn't interested in. I felt like nobody cared about the things that I cared about. And so I had a very hard time with identity, who I am what I stand for, and these are really, really important things and having such a disassociation. Oftentimes I found myself trying to be or put on this mask to appease others or to get along with people or to build relationships and that's not a good solid foundation. Acting like somebody that is in ourselves or in I'm not saying that it's not okay to do that. It is okay because like act in its it has a purpose. Right? The, the purpose is entertainment, right? So that's okay. It's not fake. It's, it's an in a heightened version of ourselves in a manufactured setting. That's what it is. And that's how I think of it when I do speaking. Because for a while, I was like I had a really hard time grappling like, I don't feel like myself. I feel like I'm acting like somebody else. And when I heard that, I was able to make sense of it. I'm like, oh, no, that is me. But it's a heightened version of myself and a manufactured setting because I'm entertaining. I'm educating an audience to teach them something so they can learn and grow. So that's totally fine. But I think that the problem that I've run into that has been challenging is being my own authentic self. Because so much of my childhood was spent, appeasing others or just making other people happy. at the expense of compromising, myself and my values and who I really am, and not being able to self-express myself. But you know, I think as time has gone on, it's become more and more clear to me. And I'm kind of like doing what I feel like I've been meaning to do. And I kind of know where that gray area is over how much we are ourselves with. Also trying to make an impression, right? So there's like, some gray area where it's like, yes, we ourselves, but like, for example, you're not the same person when you talk to kids, versus when you talk to your partner or a spouse, or you're talking to seniors, we, we talk differently, not because that's not ourselves, but because we don't we just, we different parts of ourselves are required to talk to, we adjust ourselves for the audience that we're talking to. And that isn't fake, either. That is not being disingenuous, or unauthentic. So, yeah, those are kind of my first initial thoughts about all that, and kind of where I've been to where I've gotten through this, and you know, something that is still for me, I guess, a work in progress. You know, I don't, it was on a different podcast, we talked about self-actualization, and how like, it's not a destination, or reach, like, I got to the top of mountain, I reached it. It's like, no, every day, you're striving to keep going, you never reached the top, you're just a better version of yourself than the person you were yesterday, and you keep going for your whole life. But you there is no you never like reached that point, you know, it's just something you we it's a lifelong journey.
Kim Meninger
Which, in my opinion, kind of makes life more interesting. Because if you could reach the peak of the mountain, then what's the point? Right, they'll say, Oh, I'm just gonna coast for the comment on some of the things that you said, because I think when I think about and I bring a bias to every conversation, because I have a psychology degree, and that is my first love when it comes to interests. So I see everything through the lens of psychology. And I think, when you talk about the importance of childhood, it can't be overstated. When you think about this a lot, that the experiences we have as children are kind of the foundation they become, it's the database, right on which our lives are built, and how we experience interactions with other humans and in different situations, informs how we respond to those situations going forward. And if we, as children, in particular, feel even more vulnerable than being a child already means right, like, if you don't feel safe with the adults around you that have been tasked with keeping you alive and keeping you safe. Or if you don't feel safe in your peer group with people that you don't have the power to change or escape. That is a very consequential experience. And then you think about, you go through life, and you just keep reentering social situations, whether that's in college or in other personal settings, or the workplace that trigger you in ways that you know, and don't know, right, consciously and unconsciously. And so even though we are behaving as adults, when we walk into our workplaces, there is that inner child that is still very much alive and very much afraid of ever experiencing the kind of pain that we experienced as children that we felt like we had no control over. And so I just want to make that point as you're talking about childhood because it's easy to say, Oh, let the past be the past. And you know, now we're in these different stages of our lives. But no, I mean, there's so much of our childhood that still present in our everyday lives. And I wonder if you can speak a little bit more to how you figured that out? Like Was that something that you kind of always knew that your childhood was having an effect on you? Or did you have to go through therapy? Did you have like, did you have a moment when it all became clear? Or how did that evolution start for you?
Avi Wolfson
That evolution started when I was very, very young. And maybe at the time I didn't realize it because I was just going through the motions. I'm a child and I don't know what to expect I have. I don't have an inkling of insight other than seeing adults around me what adulthood looks like and how it's different from childhood. But I knew from very young Ah, I was bullied very badly, to a point that some of the memories I forget, but I remember bits and pieces. And that happened for quite a long time. And I remember inside of me like, like, changes, like, I don't know how to explain it in my mind, like when, in when it's consistent, and it happens, and it just breaks you down to the point like, you can feel your self-esteem and soul being crushed. And that's, I remember that feeling. And it's something that I don't want to say is a permanent change in me. But it had a profound impact, it changed my behavior and how I am as a person. And I think that there, there's a place for healing. And I think that that's been a long time for me and therapy, right, from a very young age. I have seen therapists from when I was in school, I you know, and that's been an important part of my healing process. But I know I knew I knew very shortly at when I around the time I became an adult, how, my past my childhood, how those things affected me, and how bothered I was, but when I hear an adult saying, that was years ago, toughen up, suck it up. That parts that part of you of what your life is over. That's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard in my life. Those parts of us don't go away, they're still there. And if you don't believe, take it from me, then take it from David Goggins, who wrote the book Can't Hurt Me, because he is one of the toughest, toughest nail people in the world. I mean, Lisa, Hypatia, she talked about him, his book is phenomenal, can't hurt me. And he grew up in a very at risk. But he was an at-risk kid. And was subjected to all kinds of terrible things. And, I think that his book would be particularly something particularly helpful for people to know about if they don't already because he provides kind of a roadmap and guidance for how to overcome adversity. And he talks about the, the hand we're dealt with in life, right? So that could look like disability, mental health-ish issue or some other hardship, whatever it may be, that is your bad hand. And he talks about looking at your bad hand every day and really facing it, and confronting it. And that can be painful. And that can be really, it has been for me, but it does, it has been very helpful to me to, to actually look at those things, and to face them. And every day, it becomes a just, it makes me a little bit more resilient than the last day, right? It's like walking on hot stones, the first time it's gonna really hurt, but your feet build up a callus, and you stop getting burned. And then you can walk all over these hot coals like it's nothing. And that is like, kind of, to me the framework for how to build it up, right? Because the parts of me that got really hurt, like, that was that's really awful. And it still affects me to this day. And I think that in therapy is extremely important. Also, therapy gets a very terrible, terrible rap, rap in society. The way I, the way I see it is if you are starting a business, and you can choose to have a business advisor that has 30 years of advice, or you could have no business advisor, and just go on your own, what would you choose? Of course, you'd have a business advisor, a therapist, a doctor, These people are your business advisors for your health, your physical health, your mental health, why would you do it alone? Because society says, oh, that's lame, like, no, it's called being smart. You know, have an advisor for business and also, even more importantly, your health. Because if you don't have your health, you can't run a business, health precedes all of that. That is, that is the first need that we need to have literally. So understanding these things, you can suppress it. I did for a really long time. It doesn't go away. I tried to numb these things. I remember I just spoke to somebody on a different podcast, and we talked about numbing, numbing the pain, and it doesn't go away. It's temporary, but it sets and it festers and it just gets it doesn't get better. It gets, it's, it gets worse and then boils over. And so it's an that can look like a hospitalization or you know just like really unhealthy ways of we need to have a valve. People need to have a valve so that they can let off steam and have a place to heal and grow. That's so, so important. In this, because so many people don't they just think that you have to do it on your own. And I don't think that there's anything admirable about that. I mean, if you're going through something, don't do it alone, get us have a support group, find people that you can trust, that can support you. That's been extremely helpful to me. And it's not a handicap. It's, it's being smart and choosing to do things in a way that helps us grow and stay resilient.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I like the way you liken it to a business adviser because there are so many successful people who have surrounded themselves with experts, right with people who help accelerate their growth in some way. And I would call therapy, exactly that. And I often think about the fact that much of what we mock we fear, right? And so a lot of the bad rap that you're talking about, isn't rooted in logic, or, you know, it's really people are it. It triggers some kind of fear in people, right? VMs being vulnerable of feeling like they aren't doing things on their own, whatever it is, everybody has their own reasoning. But you're absolutely right. Like, if a resource is available to you, that can help you to get through this. Why would you say note that? It's such a no-brainer to me. And again, obviously, I bring a bring a bias to this conversation, my goal, my growing up was always to become a therapist. So I have always seen the value in that I've gone through therapy for many years on my own as well. But I think you know, you and I were talking about this before I hit record that much of the benefit of this podcast is helping people feel less alone. And when you talk about being part of a support group, when you talk about being able to talk to somebody else about your pain, no matter how long ago it was, because you're absolutely right, it's still very real. That makes you feel less alone. And there is something incredibly empowering about knowing that you are part of a system of people who have experienced other challenges as well.
Avi Wolfson
Absolutely, absolutely. It's, it's so important. And I like the fact that you mentioned that, like therapy is something that you've also done and I have done, right? And it can just can't be it's can't be overstated enough, have surrounding yourself, right, because the people that we surround ourselves with often dictate the choices we make in life, right there dictate our behaviors. So if you surround yourself with a band of thieves, chances are you're going to steal something. If you surround yourself with a group of people who are supportive, and positive, and happy, and try to make each other's lives better, good things are gonna happen to you, and you're going to do positive things in life. So that's one aspect of it. And two, the other thing I'll point out is that not every time you speak to somebody or your problems gonna go away. But one thing that I've learned in therapy that was beneficial to me, is even during some really, really awful times in my life, going through a toxic relationship in particular that I remember, it didn't make my problems go away. But just having somebody to listen to me was healing in some way, just having somebody listen, maybe you don't get all your answers solved, or your problems go away. But just having somebody to listen, it does help, and it does heal you it does make a difference. So it's just so important for folks to know that like, there are resources available. And if things get bad, like, you know, it's okay to lean on somebody's shoulder. And that's not a form of weakness. It's a form of strength. And I think that that's so important to, to make that point.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I want to talk to you a little bit about the authenticity piece that you brought up earlier, and the masks that we wear, because one thing I was thinking about, as you were talking is there are the, there are the shifts we make because of the audience that we're speaking to, like you said, right, we're going to adjust our behavior based on who we're talking to what the forum is, and that is not a form of inauthenticity, that is a strategic choice, right? Because you're going to better connect with people. If you show up in there at least you express different parts of yourself in different moments. But what occurred to me as you were talking was when the mask is designed to prevent people from knowing the real you because you're afraid that if they knew the real you They wouldn't like it or accept it or respect it. Right? And I think that's important for the, this conversation because so much, there's so much talk about authenticity in the workplace. And I'm always, I always have mixed feelings about it, because I think that we should feel safe in our workplaces. But I also don't want to give a license to sharks to just be their own cells, right? Like, a lot of people out there that who's authentic cells are not appropriate for the words.
Avi Wolfson
Yeah. Oh, my goodness, that's such a great observation in point. I love that. Yeah. And the other thing, too, to add to that point, Kim, is that you have to be careful what you share. Because if you overshare these people, I mean, yes, you can make friends at work, it happens. Do I think that you can be a, it's a family at work? Honestly, not really. If you listen to people like Gary Vee, who is very big on LinkedIn, he talks about that. Most companies that call themselves families, is just a way to garner more loyalty, right at the expense. Like if something happens to you, though, like you can't work like, is your company going to have your back? Probably not. Like, even if you're there for them, like, yeah, the last step from you. But like, if something happens to you, like chances are there, it's not going to come in the same way. And I'm not saying that that always is the case. But most cases, I find that to be true. And so I think it's super important that we be very, very careful about who we share information with. Because once you open up that box, you can't close it. Now it's out in the open, if you have people that you think you're friendly with, and then they throw you under the bus like, now what, it's your own fault because you overshared and they have that information. So I would just be very cautious when it comes to that. And in general, right? Not everybody. We can, you can't just walk up to anybody and be vulnerable to them. Because, you know, as a huge proponent of Brene Brown, she's states that only share your story and pains with those whom you know, and you trust, those will guide you in the right direction to on the right path. So it's super important that we're careful. Not everybody can be a doctor like we want them to right, because we have to be very careful about that. It's, it's really important.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up too. Because I think that there's confusion around how what authenticity looks like what vulnerability looks like in the workplace, we use these terms. We don't define them. We don't make them actionable in some way. Right. So everybody's interpreting it for themselves. But I think particularly if you have had trauma in your life, if you have experienced harm and lack of safety, lack of trust, it's even more important to be cautious about who you share with. And that doesn't mean not opening up to other people. It just means being thoughtful and intentional about selecting. Right. Yeah, exactly.
Avi Wolfson
Yeah. And you know, it's funny, because I want to, I want to tell you about this, because most recently, I experienced like, like, this was really tough for me and tricky for me to navigate. So I did start doing self-publishing back in 2020, March of 2020. And I took a course and I learned it and they're like, Oh, don't use your actual name, use, use a pen name. And I'm like, okay, cool. So I'm gonna, I'm going to use a pen name, because it's going to keep the stuff about my family private. And I also want to do it for marketing purposes, right? So I use the pen name. And what I found was, as a business started growing, people are reaching out to me, they want to, they want to interview me. And so I did it. And first time it went, Okay, and it was fine. But something felt wrong. Because I was acting like, the person of my pen name. And I own that pen name that is me, but it's something felt disingenuous about it. And then I did it a second time. And the second time, I felt even worse, like, I just felt so out of place. And I felt phony. And I think a lot of this like, like you said, like, it stemmed from my childhood. I saw like, my parents, and they were kind of, you know, like, especially my dad, like, like, just like not authentic like putting on this facade of somebody that they're not right. And so like, I think that that was part of it. But I recognize that and I decided, I'm not going to do this anymore. Yes, I am this pen name, but I need to be honest that I am still me. I am me. And I use a pen name because for a long time I was like, Oh no, like I can just keep this separate. I don't have to say that but then That felt really like disingenuous and phony. So, more recently, I started saying, Yes, I am a speaker. And I've right under the pen name Frank Dixon. And I feel so much better now. And I don't have to talk as him because he's, it's a pen name. And that's okay. Because people are allowed to use pen names. If you buy a house with somebody go up to you and say, Well, did you buy the house? Is that really your house? You don't have to, you don't have to build the house that for it to be yours. I don't have to have written my books. For them to belong to me to be copywritten by me. It's so like, I took more time to think more deeply. And I was like, yes. So like, it's important to think about these things. Because at first, I was like, I was having a really hard time, like being feeling authentic about using a pen name, and also being myself and being like, Hey, this is my pen name and being okay with that, and I just being more open and transparent about that has made me feel a lot better. Hmm.
Kim Meninger
I mean, you tell me if this resonates with you, but what I'm hearing you say and what I'm thinking about more broadly, in the context of these masks is, is it a hiding strategy, right? Or is it a, is it just a way of being more of who you are?
Avi Wolfson
I think it's both. So when you said hiring strategy right away that clicked to me is like, Yes, I didn't want people to see this. But it was for a specific reason. Because I do write personal things about my family in there, and how I grew up and I didn't want to come off, like I'm bashing my family. So I hit it, but it was for a good reason. So maybe that's something I still need to figure out how to navigate, right? Because now that I'm transparent, I people now can link those two things together. And I guess I have to be okay with that. And just make it clear that my intention isn't to bash them. So, which is why I say that, right? So I feel like that's sufficient for me, and I'm okay with it. And how that does it? Does that seem right to you?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, it absolutely does. And I can see it to the value of the journey, right of the incremental choices that you made along the way. So maybe in the beginning, having that separation was important and did serve a valuable purpose. But then as you grew into it, you were able to let go a little bit more merge the two and a little bit better. And I think that's important, too, even in the context of the broader conversation that we're having is, it's not a switch that you flip, right? You were talking before about how it's a work in progress, that you were always just trying to be better the next day than we are today. And, and I think that's really important to emphasize, too, is that like this is, this is a lifelong journey and a lot of the choices that we make. For today, we will change, you know, we will update as we get stronger and as we move forward. And that's important to recognize, too. And that doesn't mean that we were weak in the moment that we made a certain choice, right? It just means that that's where we were in the journey, then.
Avi Wolfson
That's so that's such a great point, Kim and right, it's about learning, right? And we're gonna fail and failure is part of the process of learning and achieving success and through trial and error. So yeah, it's all part of the journey. I love what you said that.
Kim Meninger
Can you talk a little bit more about the failure piece too, because I know that's something that you mentioned is part of how you see success, a lot of…
Avi Wolfson
Yes, I love talking about failure. Because society hates talking about right, failure is bad. We don't like failure, don't be a failure. But failure is the basis of all success, right? Life, I like this metaphor. Life is one long, ongoing boxing match. You win some, you lose some. Nobody goes through life without losing. Without losing matches, right? You're gonna get knocked down even the best of the best. Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, they both got knocked down and they were like the greatest in the world. Some of the greatest boxers of all time. But it's not about how many times you get knocked down. It's about how many times you get back up that matters, right? That we become more resilient and we're still going to get knocked down. And that's okay. Because when we get knocked down, you're we lose around. There's always something that can be taken from those losses, which is why I like to think of victory glasses, right? The Vic-... what victory glasses do is it is a perception that we look within our losses in life and we extract positive things from them. So, if you lose around something you try, it doesn't go well the first time, what did you learn from that? Remember to appreciate your victories even if they are minor. If we can't ever appreciate our Vic Freeze, then when we have big ones, we won't be able to allow ourselves to use that motivation as momentum to continue propelling us towards our goals and aspirations. So without help failing, we wouldn't be able to recognize prime opportunities. So it's so, so important to fail. And not to not to like be proud of failing, but to be excited about the learning lessons that we can take from those failures. So that we can come back harder and stronger for the next round, and retain that championship, mindset, even when we get knocked down.
Kim Meninger
What's so, so well said and I think about and talk about a lot on this podcast, that if we're not failing, we're playing it really safe. And if we're playing it really safe, we're making our worlds really small, right? We're not, we're not growing, we're not stretching ourselves. It's so scary. Like you said, we don't that term failure, especially for perfectionists is such a trigger. But really, how do you know success as unless by contrast, oh, it's through the growth and through the, through the learning that we are able to identify when something is good, and when something has gone well? And so I think it is so important for us to intentionally put ourselves in positions where things don't go perfectly. It builds muscles that many of us who are used to being perfect or you know, not failing loops, and you lose that resilience, you lose that, that feeling that I can bounce back, like you're talking about unless I put myself in the path of it and prove to myself.
Avi Wolfson
So true, yeah, it to use it or lose it. And I love that. And that also reminds me of a really good book that I enjoy, that has such a good learning lesson to what you just spoke about. When it comes to challenging ourselves, and that's a book by Susan, Susan David called The Motion Agility. And what it stated that in order to thrive, we need to be challenged and develop emotional agility. Once you become too proficient at something, it's easy to turn on autopilot. This in turn leads to rigidity, disengagement, and boredom, it's fine to go through the motions for mundane tasks like brushing your teeth. But life quickly becomes dull and unfulfilling. If we aren't consciously challenged by it, it's important to spice things up a bit search for something more daring. Maybe you could launch a new initiative at your workplace. And that said, Well, it's good to be stimulated, we shouldn't overdo it. But the key is to balance a little positive stress from new situations with secure feelings of assurance and competence. And that is known as being living at the edge of our potential. And that edge is a line that can gradually be pushed forward. But we shouldn't overstep it. A good way to start challenging ourselves could be something as simple as learning a new language or how to play a musical instrument.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and that's exactly what I recommend to because it's a very low risk, right? You're not, nobody's judging you, you're not going to lose your job. Right? [Yeah.] I think that, you know, challenges your brain, it puts you in the beginner role again.
Avi Wolfson
And if we just left the same dumbbells at one pound all day, it's not gonna we're not working the muscle in our brain or in our body, right? So if we do that, we have to step it up out a little bit more added a little bit more weight, make this slightly more challenging, keep pushing our boundaries just a little bit. It doesn't have to be insane or crazy. But the point is the buildup and we keep adding tacking on a little bit more than the last time.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love that. I have a question for you that is going to be I don't want to put you on the spot because it's something that I think we are all struggling to answer right now. But I like to think about things at an individual level and at a macro level. And one of the things that I think about a lot is that just as you and I are talking about our own experiences, having gone through therapy, we all have our own backstory, we all have our own set of challenges, like you were talking about the, the hand that you were dealt, some of us, more so than others. When we get into the workplace, I think many of us make assumptions that we're interacting with fully healed whole adults who are acting in rational ways, when in actuality, so much of the behavior that we observe and experience is a reflection of other people's unfinished business right of, of their trauma of their the hands that they were dealt, and I just wonder if we know that If we can sort of remind ourselves of this on a regular basis, how do we show more empathy and compassion to each other? How do we get to a place where, you know, we talked about the value of doing our own work? And you know, doing therapy and taking the steps to heal ourselves? But do you see this playing out in an ecosystem too? Like, is there some, is there a way that we can do this for one another as well?
Avi Wolfson
Yes, but there's a prerequisite to this, which is the company, each company has their own culture, right? And with that said, a lot of it comes down to leadership. And oftentimes, in my experience of the different jobs that I've worked at, the leadership almost always dictates the culture and the attitude and the mindset. When you have a toxic or unhealthy culture, it's going to be extremely, extremely, extremely difficult to sway the minds. Um, yes, you can. People can be swayed, opinions can be changed. But in my experience, most people they have a certain way they like to run things. And it can be really, really difficult to change that mindset. Unless you have like, you can rally the troops and get everybody to do this and are an advocate for a more empathetic place. For example, sales organizations tend to be more cutthroat. That's not always the case. I think there can be there could even exist, like a family type of a family type of culture. But it's uncommon, it really comes down. And I'm not saying that, like, you can try. And you can try to make a difference. But ultimately, it really just it comes down to the leadership. If they're unwilling, or they want things to be a certain way. They're going to push that agenda. And there's not a whole lot you can do is how I feel about that.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I appreciate that. I think you're absolutely right, that the opportunity exists, but it's conditional. Yes. conditional on the leadership, the culture that is fostered by the leadership. Yeah, this has been such a great conversation. Avi, I'm so grateful to you for being so open and for being willing to share your story. So vulnerably, it's, it's inspiring. And again, it comes back to making everyone feel less alone in the world. And so I'm really grateful to you for that. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your story? Your work?
Avi Wolfson
Yeah, absolutely. So the best place to reach me, I'm on LinkedIn. And that's where I do all my communication from I've got all my different ventures and things that I go on. They're always happy to connect with people have a conversation, if you want to talk about something or pick my brain, or you have an idea for a win-win collaboration. I love connecting with people and I love helping people. And I'm just so grateful to you, Kim for allowing me time to be on your show and to have this meaningful conversation which I hope benefits your audience and many others.
Kim Meninger
Thank you so much. I have no doubt that it will.