In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the upper limit. Just as homeostasis keeps our bodies in a state of equilibrium, our minds tend to do this as well. Often, we set up an upper limit of what we think we’re capable of, or what we think we deserve, which becomes our own glass ceiling. My guest this week, Jill Avey, shares strategies for how we can push past this upper limit to better utilize our strengths and more confidently achieve our goals.
About My Guest
Jill Avey helps women leaders get promoted to the Director and VP levels. She does this by supporting her clients to develop their strengths, increase their influence, and improve team performance while navigating gender bias. She believes that everyone has talents they haven’t yet fully realized. She is inspired to help her clients find deep fulfillment in their careers, both personally and financially. Her approach is grounded in research, applied behavioral science, and her own personal experience as an executive.
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Connect with Jill:
Website: https://sistersmart.com/
Ikigai exercise: https://sistersmart.com/purpose
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Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Jill, it is such a pleasure to talk with you today. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Jill Avey
Thank you, Kim, thanks so much for having me on the show. I'm really excited to talk with you today. I, I've been a coach for six years, I'm a PCC coach with the ICF, which is the upper level of certification for those who don't know, and I started coaching because I wanted a second career. And I wanted, I spent my first career and mark in marketing and quickly in the corporate world. And I worked on sporting goods and footwear, two very fun products to sell and really enjoyed selling products, but I wanted to just make a transition into being more of service to people. And so I decided to take one of my other passions, which was leadership and to help people with leadership. And that's where, you know, my executive coaching came in. And so now I work with women leaders in the corporate world who are in middle management, like the director or VP level, wanting to move up to the next level, and I help them get their boarding. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
And so do you did when you were making this transition? Were there specific problems that you were envisioning, addressing? Through coaching? Based on your own experience? Like when you were in the corporate world? Were there certain things that you noticed about leadership? And what was or was not working? Did you experience specific challenges to yourself that got you thinking about how can I be of service to women in this new way?
Jill Avey
When I was in the corporate world, I, I always tried to lead in the way that I felt was most effective. And, and I wanted to show the world what women could bring to leadership. And I always wanted to be an inspiration, particularly to the other men that I was working with, to show how when we take care of the human, how much, how much more potential we can tap into and, and how much better our teams can perform. So I thought that, you know, that's really what I would be bringing to leadership coaching as well, I did not know, I'd be working with women, I actually wanted to work with people who were maybe underserved, and maybe didn't think of themselves as leaders like the technical experts that come up, who don't think of themselves as leaders so much. But when I started coaching, it became really clear that it was women who wanted me to focus on them. I did, I did some market research, when I first became a coach, as marketers do, and it was, you know, immediately obvious to me that all the women's programs I've done in the past had led me down this path and, and that that's who I really should work with. And it's funny because I thought that I would be teaching them how to lead like I did, which, when I was coming up, I really I was successful, and the women around me were successful in, in acting like men. And then I did about a year and a half's worth of research to develop my program. And I realized, oh, no, no, there's a whole other way out there where we can really step into our feminine strengths and lead, follow along with that and just understand how to how to talk about that better, and how to communicate what we're doing, if we really understand our feminine leadership style. And it's so much more powerful, because now we're authentic, and we're able to build trust better because of that authenticity. And we're able to use the full power of the strengths that we have, versus trying to maybe step into those masculine strengths more than we normally would.
Kim Meninger
So that really resonates with me too. I started my career in the late 90s. And I think there was definitely more of a bias towards for women who were in leadership, mimicking the styles of the male leaders, there wasn't as much space for more feminine types of leadership and one of the things that I was really hopeful about coming out of the pandemic was that there would be this new appreciation for the value of what we consider more feminine leadership styles. It certainly doesn't mean that only women possess these traits but you know, like empathy and collaboration and you know, just more like the intuitive taking care of the whole person type of approach to leadership and, and so my, my hope is that we will continue to build on that momentum and not race back into old ways of doing things and lose the, the lessons of these moments but I wonder Do you see more space for The this type of leadership today than maybe you saw years ago, do you think that, I guess how optimistic are you about the trajectory that we're on?
Jill Avey
Actually, I'm really optimistic about it. And like, I have a, for example, I have a client who came to me, she was on her third job, she was a developer. And the two jobs before she had gotten asked to be in leadership. And then she started to lead a team. And then the men in the roles are, you know, and her peers, the, she'd be the only woman, eventually women later and her peers would tell her that she needed and her manager specifically would tell her that she needed a lead a different way. But she didn't want to lead a different way, because it didn't feel right to her. And then she would get frustrated and, and quit. And then she would get another job. And it happened again. And so she was on her third job. And she, she was like, I really liked this company. And I want to make it work this time. And so we work together to help her to really step into her leadership style, but be able to articulate what she's doing. And now in the time in just a year that we work together, she got promoted twice. And she now she has the respect of the other leaders because they understand what she's doing. And they're like, they're bringing her in more, because, hey, will you do that thing that you do? And I think, hopefully, they're starting to learn from her the power of, like you said, these are just feminine leadership traits. And we all carry both masculine and feminine and us and so can the guy step into something that maybe they weren't socialized to do as young boys, but they can start to do it now. And it's really powerful when men start to embody these, these traits, too, because now they've got, you know, like, when women embody the masculine traits, now we've got both sides, and we can really use that flexibility to for whatever's coming to us at that moment.
Kim Meninger
I'm glad you brought that up because I don't want to suggest that one is better than another, or that we should be getting rid of, you know, traditionally masculine leadership, right, great in and substitute, you know, entirely with, with feminine leadership traits, I think that's the really important point is that there are benefits to all of them. And a lot of it is how and when they're applied. And so if you narrow the scope, or you sort of truncate the range of available leadership strengths, you're missing out on an opportunity, whether that's because you're dominated by women's or female leadership traits, or by that masculine leadership traits. And so I think it is important to reinforce that there's space for all of us.
Jill Avey
There sure is. And we benefit when we all come together with our diversity, right, you know, I'm, you know, a huge fan of diversity and that it takes, it takes all of that. And in fact, I worked with it all women team and they struggled too.
Kim Meninger
That is true. I see that a lot, too. Yeah, I mean, what, what would you say are the biggest challenges facing the women that come to you today? What are they trying to address?
Jill Avey
Well, one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you today is because I think impostor syndrome, and that self-belief and the vision of what you could be, I think, is actually the biggest thing, it's not the thing that people come to me for. But it's the thing under the surface, that's limiting women from being so much more than they could be. And I think we could all be more than we are today. And myself included. So it's, it's really about developing that vision of who, who you could be and what that looks like, that I think holds us back when we don't have it.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and what do you see as the biggest obstacles to that? Why is it so hard for us to get there?
Jill Avey
Well, one of the reasons that we don't have that many role models, it's hard to find other women who have done it the way we have the way we want to that fit our personality type. I mean, look at all of the role models that men have to look at and to find their own muse. And when I ask women who their muse is, a lot of times they tell me, I don't have anyone. And there's not anybody that I look up to that, that I want to do it that way, you know. And so I think it's important for us to tell the stories of women leaders because there's lots of women leaders out there and there's lots of women doing all this stuff, but we're not as visible and I think that's something that's, you know, really helped by, by the work that you do, and, and just, in general is like looking, looking around and seeing who, who is out there because you kind of have to look for them a little bit more that it's not as obvious.
Kim Meninger
That's a very good point. I do think In the absence or the, they're just not as many, as you said, role models makes it a lot harder because it's hard to imagine ourselves if we can't see ourselves and other people. And, you know, I wonder what else you see in terms of imposter syndrome off, like, the stories we tell ourselves are the ways in which we get in our own way, because it is, unfortunately, so pervasive. And I want to make the point to that there are plenty of men who struggle with impostor syndrome to is gender agnostic. This is not just unique to women. But certainly, we see it very often in women, how does it show up in the, in the people that you're supporting? What are they reporting? What are they missing out on?
Jill Avey
I think the biggest thing is that it shows up in just thinking a little smaller than we could. And, you know, impostor syndrome isn't part of my program from the very beginning. But just recently, I did a three-hour workshop on it for my community. And I found in creating that workshop that my own impostor syndrome went a lot deeper than I realized, I uncovered. And I feel like, you know, personal development, it's all about kind of peeling back the onion. And there's always more layers of things to develop. And so I found, I found some new layers of my own imposter syndrome, where I had, I hadn't realized that that was even there. And that, that there was just, you know, still some things to work with holding me back. So I worked with my therapist and got rid of that stuff. And so because I'm not, I'm all about not letting anything hold me back. And so whenever there's an issue, I'm the first one to figure out like, Okay, how do I work with this and make it to my advantage? Or how do I work with it and get rid of it? And so it's, it's, I think it's a really sneaky phenomenon, because it, it weaves its way into your life in so many different aspects. And I think that's the hard thing about impostor syndrome is that there's, you know, I mean, you have an entire podcast on this one thing. So it shows how many facets there are, and how many different angles there are to look at it. And it's, so I think it's a little hard to spot sometimes for people. And, and I'm not even always sure is, you know, is this a real? You know, is this a real obstacle for you? Or is this imposter syndrome? And sometimes we have to, you know, parse that out.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that’s a really good point, too. And I think about the, the sort of correlation between impostor syndrome and achievement, and the, the way in which it strikes high achievers at such a higher rate. And I, you know, I kind of think about this from my own personal experience, as well as from all of the people that I've supported through this is that when you care deeply about your performance, when you really want to do something, well, you are going to feel that much more vulnerable. When you're doing something that you're not necessarily sure you know how to do that you feel other people know how to do better than you do, right? And so, we do get in our own heads. And when you think about it, that way, it makes sense that we would end up playing small that we would end up not, you know, maybe not going after the opportunity as fully as we might, because if we do something, we want to do it to the greatest extent possible. And unless we're guaranteed to be able to do that, we're not going to take that risk. And unfortunately, what ends up happening is we make our worlds really small because we just keep repeating the things that we know, we can do well, and then kind of buffering ourselves from the new challenges or the new learning opportunities that are out there because they just feel so unsafe, it feels like oh, no, then I'm going to you know, I'm going to fail as I'm going to be humiliated, something catastrophic is going to happen. So I'm just going to stay in my comfort zone because that I can control that is something I know how to do. And then I'm going to, you know, all these opportunities are going to pass me by and go to people who are mediocre.
Jill Avey
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, what you're talking about makes me think about the saboteur voices that we have, that are part of that holding ourselves back and keeping ourselves small. A lot of probably almost everyone at least nine out of 10 of my clients have the hyper achiever saboteur, which is that it's that voice that tells you that you're only as good as the achievement that you that you're about to achieve and once you wish, Even now you've got to go on to the next thing. And it's that not good enough voice. And so that's something that's really powerful, I think and in keeping you small, because you It also makes people take less risk because they want to, they will only do things that they know they could be great ad like you're talking about. And so working with that hyper achiever, and also the judge is another one that, you know, we can often be our own worst critic. And so if you're criticizing yourself all day, every day, as the judge voice is known to do, then it's hard to want to take those, those next steps and, and you know, it's really easy to have that self-doubt creep in because you're not, you're not being your own best cheerleader. And you're not the one, you know, saying, Yes, I can do this. I know, I have the track record. I am good enough. I have the experience. I know what I'm doing. I don't know everything. And that's okay, too, you know?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. And I like the way you described it as your only as good as your upcoming achievement because I think we're just naturally wired as humans to pay attention to all of the negative. So, you know, I often talk about the fact that we're cruising through our lives, noticing every mistake we make, and all the ways in which we think other people are better than we are, and all the things we don't know, and we're just breezing past all of the good stuff. We're not spending the time cataloging it, we're not marking it in any kind of meaningful way. It just feels like yeah, whatever. You know, that's not special. Anyone could do that. It was it was luck. You know, and then when we get to wherever it is, we're going next, and we think it's this is a fluke, how did I get? Because we are not, we're not benefiting from the accumulation of successes along the way. We're not saying when we're not trusting ourselves that we've built this foundation from our own expertise and experience that the foundation feels so fragile because it doesn't feel like it's something that we have legitimately built. Again, it's like, Oh, I was in the right place at the right time, et cetera. And, and now we're being put to this test. And so I feel like self-trust is a big part of this conversation and really being able to say, I've, I know I can I know I have the capacity to learn it. I'm not an expert. I'm not I haven't tried it before. But I know I can do it because I've learned a lot of other things over the course of my life.
Jill Avey
Yeah, I remember one conversation I was having with an entrepreneur friend of mine, and I said, you know, I feel like I'm just making it up as I go. And she said, I do too. And she's a super successful business. And I thought, wait a second, I worked at startups for many, you know, many years. And we literally were making it up as we went, that's called entrepreneurs jump. What is wrong with that, of course, we're making it up as we go. And you know, what, the leaders of the top companies in the world are making it up as they go to where none of us have ever done today before. And so you know, that, that feeling when you could let yourself off the hook from that, and that it's okay. I feel like that's one of the big steps. And the other thing that you've just sparked in my mind is the how, how women build confidence is different than men. So men do this kind of fake it till you make it thing. And they, they sort of work themselves into confidence. But men, women need to build confidence from many different angles, I feel. And so one of the things that I love to have women do is to really celebrate everything that goes right every day. And so, you know, daily wins, journaling is what I call that. So writing down three wins every day or five wins every day. And I you know, I have people in my community, you know, report out on Fridays, what went well this week, because, like you were talking about if we just keep going and going and we're not really acknowledging everything that's going well along the way that we end up at the success, or end up at the promotion, or whatever. And we don't really believe we belong there. Because we weren't acknowledging what was happening. And I think women have this tendency to have the achievement and then brush it off. Like, oh, yeah, it was the team or luck or whatever. And then just run on to the next thing because we have such full plates. And it's like, I have five other things I've got to get on to and so I'm just going to keep going just keep my head down and keep going. But we're really robbing ourselves of that confidence, building peace. And I think that's one of the big reasons why women don't have as much confidence in general. You know, that they report to me as men do.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, to do exactly. And I wholeheartedly agree with you on I like how you call it a daily wins journal, I call it an accomplishments journal or, you know, just some way of very intentionally tracking what is going well because that is not something that our brains will do automatically. It's a practice that has to be inserted very intentionally. And it does change the way you see yourself. Because over time, as you get into the habit of noticing these things, and you have now this record that you can go back to and look at, it does shift your attention to what you're doing. Well, I know, I've done this before. I don't do it now, because I work for myself. But I did recently start doing it again because it was part of a program. And I remember going back and looking at some of these, wow, I just did more than I thought I did, right? We just don't notice it unless we track it. And so it is a very powerful technique for building that confidence. And I want to go back to, to what you were talking about with making it up. Because this has definitely been liberating for me too, as a business owner to realize, oh, there's not some manual that I just didn't get access to. Everybody's making it up. And I think, for women in particular, and certainly there's there are cultural elements to this, too. So it's not just women, but that many of us have this belief that there's one right way to do things, and that there are rules that need to be followed. And that, you know, we have to color in the lines or you know, there's, again, that idea that there's a manual, and if only I had the manual, then I would be able to do this. But when we're talking about especially the day and age that we live in where we're innovating at such a rapid pace. If we can read if we can sort of remind ourselves, what we're trying to do is likely something that hasn't been done before, we're trying to create change, we're trying to do something different, something new, that calls for a different way of thinking it requires coloring outside the lines, and it can if we can really embrace that kind of thinking it can free us to take more risks to think outside the box of it. And I think boys are socialized to do that at a younger age than girls are, right? Like I always joke about the fact there's no comparable expression to boys will be boys, right? Like what do we mean, when we say boys will be boys, right? Like they're breaking the rules, they're getting in trouble, they're getting dirty, they're doing things that like girls are not allowed to do. We're in, we have to be good girls and follow the rules and everything. And then boys just are conditioned very differently. And so a lot of it is rewiring, things that have helped us to be really good at school, that have helped us to be really good at the work. But when it comes to leadership, when it comes to career advancement, those same things that got us here aren't necessarily going to get us to where we want to go.
Jill Avey
Yeah, I love that you're talking about rewiring that because we do get so conditioned to be good girls, and I see even you know, people in my program that are, you know, doing all the stuff and trying so hard. And, and, you know, it serves us in so many ways. And we're great at learning, learning new things when there is a book, right, but we really have to break out of that, especially with this imposter syndrome thing, because we will always feel like such an impostor until we break out of it and really understand and really rewire our net or neural networks to that it's okay, that that's really how we should be operating is, is, you know, that innovation mindset and figuring it out as we go and I laugh at my husband, I were talking about how would we go about changing a tire? You know, he's like, Well, I would, I would go you know, just play around with it and figure out like, if, if we didn't know how to do this already, you know, I would just play around with it and figure out what tools I needed and how to do this thing, you know, and, and, and I was like, Well, I know, I look it up on YouTube and have somebody teaching me how to do it, you know, and then I would go do it. And that's, you know, I think that's how we, we really approach things differently that way. [Yeah, that's so…] It’s time for women to be you know, just like getting in there and experimenting. And being proud of that and being proud of it when it doesn't work out the way they expected as well. For good or worse.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's an important part of it too. Because I know somebody and I share this all the time as somebody who's had a lifelong anxiety disorder, how capable I am of catastrophizing and assuming the worst-case scenario, and I think that when we are high achievers, when we are perfectionist, any combination of the traits that we're talking about there is a real fear that if we don't do it, right, something terrible is going to happen. And if you play small, long enough, if you're playing it safe, you can protect yourself pretty comfortably from those catastrophic events, those imaginary catastrophic events, you're not, you know, it's like the whole risk-reward thing, right? You may not be getting where you want to go, but you're in a comfort zone that feels really safe. And so the less often we put ourselves into positions where we take those risks and make mistakes and learn from them and grow. The scarier those possibilities become, of what might what might happen, they, they just sort of get more and more powerful. But if we put ourselves in the position, to make mistakes to be wrong, sometimes to take a risk and not have it go the way that we intended, then our brain starts to say, Oh, this isn't as scary as I thought it was, this isn't as dangerous as I thought it was. Now I've expanded my comfort zone to include additional activities. And you can keep doing that more and more. But I think the more we carve ourselves off from that opportunity, the scarier it feels to actually go out there and do something different from the way we've always done it.
Jill Avey
Exactly. Confidence is built in many small moments versus just one big achievement. [Mm-hmm.] So we've got to keep doing a pushing and doing and pushing and doing and seeing how it goes, you know, yeah, and most of the time it goes great. Women are really talented. And they're you know that. I mean, anybody feeling impostor syndrome is probably really talented. Because, you know, you don't feel impostor syndrome from your comfort zone. It's the, the people who are pushing and doing the interesting stuff that have the impostor syndrome, so.
Kim Meninger
That’s a good point, too, because I think that's important to recognize. And I think that you shared this with me when we were trading information, the idea of really looking at imposter syndrome as a way of acknowledging that you're stepping outside of your comfort zone, I'm paraphrasing, but essentially, to your point, if you weren't stretching yourself, you wouldn't be feeling impostor syndrome. So if you are feeling it, then it's worth congratulating yourself because it means that you've taken a risk, it means that you've taken a step forward. That may feel scary today. But it's a sign you are playing bigger. Right? You are, you are stretching the boundaries of your comfort zone.
Jill Avey
Yeah, I do that. In my own life. My imposter syndrome is really for me around visibility, and the more I step out and get more visible on social media and things like that, which has been a real journey for me, I've even you know, putting my face on LinkedIn was, you know, making my first posts, things like that, you know, it was it took something for me to do that. And so I feel this, like nauseous feeling in the pit of my stomach when I feel my imposter syndrome come up. And so now I know, oh, hi, there you are, you know, like, it's a good sign like, oh, it looks like I'm doing something significant right now. And so, I'm gonna go ahead and just keep doing that.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, exactly. That's a great way to think about like, Oh, there you are, right, you only show up when I'm being brave and courageous. And taking risks, right? And then we can reframe what's happening in more positive ways. And one thing I want to ask you about is the future self-piece that you use. Can you tell us more about that?
Jill Avey
Yeah, so when, if, if that's not enough for me, you know, just like kind of saying, Hi, and I see you there. You know, a lot of times, that'll be enough. But if it's not, and like, if I'm doing something that's really pushing me, then the way for me to get out of my comfort zone and really embrace what I'm about to do, and not let that imposter hold me back is to really focus on what I'm, what my purpose is here. Why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? And when I think about the clients that I could potentially serve by the thing that I'm about to do, because it always has to do with my business, and then then I can get out of my own way so fast. When I think about who am I serving? And, and what is this all about? Then all of a sudden, it's usually just a non-issue at that point.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that is a really important part of the conversation too, because it's about like, where is our attention at that moment, and if our attention is in our own heads and worrying about what the possible negative consequences might be, or, you know, all the ways in which we're going to embarrass ourselves, we're gonna, we're gonna play small, we're gonna take the safest path forward. But if we instead shift the attention to how can I be of greatest service? How can I, you know, who, as you said, like, what's my purpose here? How can I help? That gets us outside of our own head and starts to help us to think about ways that we are meant more naturally oriented towards anyway because we do most of us want to feel like we're being of service to someone or something besides ourselves. And so it can be a great motivator for stretching ourselves. And then when you are of service to other people, you're not thinking about yourself, you're thinking about them. And we feel so much more confident when we are helping others. So it's just a really great strategy for continuing to build your confidence, like, think about it from the perspective of service, you don't have to be an expert, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room to be of service, what's your way of being of service, and then if you're focused on that, you'll get a great feeling from that it becomes self-reinforcing.
Jill Avey
It really does. And some people in the like, in the corporate world, I have clients sometimes come to me and say, you know, this just feels like a grind, I'm just doing the same thing. It feels like pushing paperwork, or you know, something like that, you know, we all have those moments. And so, I love to help people do a purpose exercise. And so one of the things that I use a lot is that the concept of E key guy, and that's that Japanese method of finding your purpose. And it's really holistic. And that's what I like about it is that you're looking at like four different areas and seeing where that overlap comes in. So it's a pretty easy exercise to do, but to, to really help you hone in on your purpose, it took me years to figure out my purpose. And this exercise just made it so clear so quickly. So I really love it.
Kim Meninger
That's a great and I know that you have generously offered to share that as well. So we will link to that in the show notes for those interested in going through that exercise. What else anything else that you see or think about, that we haven't covered yet?
Jill Avey
The thing that I was thinking about that I wanted to circle back to is that the Upper Limit Problem, have you heard talked about that? On the show? So that's a people who are in nutrition talk about this as a fat setpoint that, you know, we our bodies kind of have a weight that we like to be at and we lose weight, like let's say you get the flu, and you lose 10 pounds from the flu, and then you kind of pop back up. That's because it's like your body wants to stay the same. It's called homeostasis. And so we have the same thing emotionally too, where we have this upper limit of how big we think we can get or how good we think we can get or how good we think life can be or whatever. And so it's sort of this mental ceiling that we put on ourselves. It’s like our own glass ceiling, you know, and, and so when we start to approach that upper limit of what we think we're really capable of, then we start to subtly pull back. And we can do things like Oh, I'm getting burned out, I'm too tired, I'm sick, like we can actually like our bodies can actually manufacture sickness, when we start it at our upper limit. I've done it and I might have clients that have seen themselves do it too. And that doesn't mean all sicknesses from upper limit. But it's a tool that we can use and, and often feeling tired and worn out can be a sign or we can have conflicts that we create or all kinds of, it's really incredible how creative we can be when we would we're working with the upper limit. And so that's, I feel like that's a place where the imposter really comes out. And that the Judge Saboteur voice of you're not good enough, this isn't going to work. You know, why are you thinking about this anyhow? Why bother on that kind of voice? This can all be kind of a sign of that upper limit problem. And so I think that's something to work with as well. There's a book oh, gosh, what is it about calm? Gay Hendricks is the is the author. He's the one that, that discovered the upper limit.
Kim Meninger
And, hmm, darn it, I can't think of it. We can find it in the in the show notes to put into the show notes. That's a great concept and something to pay attention to, because they may not. Obviously, a big part of what we're talking about is having the self-awareness to recognize how we are navigating different situations what might be motivating us, so that we can make different choices if we choose to. And so if we recognize the concept of an upper limit, which I think is a great way to think about it, we can start to notice, you know, just to use as an example of the oh I'm really worried Feeling really worn out? Okay, well, what, what might be contributing to that? Is this actual? Or is this a manifestation of fear? Because I'm approaching that point where I feel like I'm getting too, too big.
Jill Avey
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of that in the burnout discussion. Because I've seen leaders run at an amazing pace, like, on and on hours and hours and hours and such hard work for years, when they're like, you know, getting a startup off the ground. So much motivation, so much enthusiasm for their mission and what they're doing. And then I've, I've seen other people and myself, I feel, I felt this in certain jobs, where, you know, when you aren't connected to the mission, or the vision, and it does feel like a slog every day, or, or there's a lot of fear, or distrust, or things like that you can feel burnout in a day, you know, and, you know, energy comes from much more than sleep and food, and, you know, and self-care. And sometimes, you know, sometimes it's really a lack of motivation and vision and purpose. That's, you know, that's missing, that's wearing us out emotionally rather than, you know, the physical part of burnout.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, yeah, that's very true. And I think that is another reason to do the purpose exercise that you described, too, because that also gives us a good indication of what's the gap. If I've identified through this exercise, what my purpose is, and I feel really far removed from that. Then I likely am going to be feeling a lot more of those feelings, and how can I make steps take steps to move to fill in that gap and move closer to that? Mission?
Jill Avey
Yeah, the book is the book is the Big Leap.
Kim Meninger
The Big Leap, okay, I know that. The one with the fish? And that's all I can think of as a fish before. I thank you so much, Jill. This has been such a great conversation for those listening who want to learn more about you, connect with you. How can they do that?
Jill Avey
My company is called Sister Smart. So our websites sistersmart.com. And if you'd like to get that Ikigai exercise and find your purpose, so you can go to sistersmart.com/purpose.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful, and we'll put those links in the show notes as well. Thanks again for all the work you're doing and for having this conversation with me today.
Jill Avey
Thanks for having me on. I've really enjoyed it.