In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the power of optimism. This week, I welcome back Moshe Cohen, a lecturer, coach, mediator, and expert on negotiation. He is also the author of two books on optimism, which we dig into more deeply in this conversation. Moshe shares his own journey with optimism and the benefits he has experienced as a result. We also explore the connection between optimism and empowerment. And we discuss steps you can take to become more optimistic, particularly if it’s not something that comes naturally to you today.
About My Guest
Moshe Cohen has been teaching negotiation, leadership, conflict resolution and organizational behavior as founder of The Negotiating Table since 1995 and as a senior lecturer at Boston University's Questrom School of Business since 2000. He has worked with thousands of students as well as companies worldwide. As a mediator, Moshe has worked to resolve hundreds of matters, and also coaches executives, managers, and individuals on leading others and negotiating effectively. He is the author of two books - Collywobbles, How to Negotiate When Negotiating Makes You Nervous and Optimism is a Choice and Other Timeless Ideas. He has also written numerous articles and cases, and appears in podcasts, videos, and interviews. Moshe studied Physics at Cornell University and has a Master's in Electrical Engineering from McGill University, specializing in robotics. After a dozen years in robotics, he completed his MBA from Boston University and fell in love with negotiation, mediation, and leadership.
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moshecohen/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Moshe, I am so excited to welcome you back to the podcast today. And I know we had a very positive response to your conversation that you and I had around a negotiation last time. And I'm excited for us to visit a new topic this time. And before we jump in, I'd love to invite you to just kind of give us a refresh on your background and you know, your relationship to our topic of optimism.
Moshe Cohen
Well, thank you so much again, Kim for inviting me again, I'm very flattered. So my name is Moshe, and I teach negotiation and leadership and conflict resolution and communication. I teach at Boston University. But I also teach in lots of companies and organizations. And I've thought a lot about optimism. And I thought a lot about negotiation and mediation and conflict resolution as well. And I put some of those thoughts into my first book collywobbles, how to negotiate when negotiating makes you nervous. And then the way optimism came about was kind of funny, because you may recall, about three years ago, we had this, we had this pandemic. And it was kind of a depressing time. And what I do when I'm depressed is I write. So when we went into lockdown, I wrote a 500-word essay called Optimism as a Choice. And I posted it to my LinkedIn site. And I got a nice response for it. So a week later, I wrote another one called the power of letting go. And then a week later, I wrote another one called finding joy in the gloom. And then I wrote another one called the invisible cocoon. And pretty soon I was writing a 500-word essay every week, and posting them. And when we went off lockdown, I took those 61 essays that I'd written in the lockdown. And I compiled them into a book called Optimism as a Choice and Other Timeless Ideas. And then I kept writing more essays. And I'm just about to put out a second volume of essays called the optimistic pessimist, which is a compilation of the 64 essays I wrote beyond the first set. So the optimism topic, came up by accident, because I just found myself writing all this stuff about it, both essays and just short quotes on my LinkedIn site. But somehow, in all of that, I kind of became the optimism person, and people look to me for optimism. And I have a lot of background in it. Because both my mom and my grandmother were consummate optimists, who faced a lot of difficulty. But I saw them face it with a very positive attitude. And the story I like to tell about it is that when my grandmother had cancer, and was no longer able to walk, she decided to learn how to knit. And she knit everybody in the family sweaters. And the idea that no matter what your circumstance, you look around realistically and say, What do I still have, and make the best of it was very deeply instilled in me and both, both from my grandmother and through my mom. And that's kind of what I tried to do. And that's what I try to teach my kids and teach my students and how I try to live my life is, things aren't always great. But even if they're not great, do the best that you have with what you have. So that's kind of my brand of optimism, which is not pretending that things aren't difficult, not pretending that they're gonna be better. But saying, look around and find the positive wherever you can.
Kim Meninger
I'm so glad you said that because I was going to ask you how you define optimism because there's a lot of talk these days about toxic positivity. And, you know, especially during the pandemic, as you're talking about, sometimes it felt almost shameful to be overly positive when people around you are suffering so much and so, you know, how do you think about calibrating these feelings of, of optimism? Do you feel like there's a point at which there's too much or is that something totally different?
Moshe Cohen
I think that's a misrepresentation of optimism. I think that you have to honor all of the bad feelings and you have to acknowledge all of the difficulty if you're going to have The ability to focus in a positive and forward-looking way. The pandemic was awful. A lot of people were sick, a lot of people died. A lot of people lost loved ones lost livelihoods. I mean, there was a lot of bad going on. But it was also serenely quiet. No, I, I'm not saying I remember the pandemic fondly. But I remember going for walks on the streets of Boston and hearing birds, and thinking, wow, there's birds here, or noticing people's gardens. And that first year in the pandemic, The gardens were blooming something crazy. So it's not that we don't recognize or acknowledge how bad things are. In fact, you want to do that? And then you want to say, and what else is there? And what are some things that we can appreciate despite all the difficulty?
Kim Meninger
So what do you even mean, I guess, sometimes people will say things, and I'll say, I'll just share personally, my husband and I will often get into this debate because I tend to be, you know, sort of is the cliche goes more of a half a glass half full kind of a person, my husband tends to be more of like, glass half empty kind of guy. And sometimes I'll joke with him, like, I'll say, you're such a pessimist. And he'll say, No, I'm a realist. Right. And so I'm wondering what you think about the distinction, if, if it even belongs in this conversation of realist versus optimist,
Moshe Cohen
I think that's a false distinction, I really think that it's a response to people being optimistic in an overly positive way that that pretends things that aren't there. The glass isn't half empty, and it isn't half full, the glass is filled halfway. Right, that's the reality. Now, you can be sad, because you're missing half. Or you can be grateful that you have the half that you still have. That's your choice. How you look at it does not change the fact that the glass is filled halfway. So that's where the realism is. The realism is to say, this is what we got. Now, where do we choose to focus are we going to focus on what we're missing, are going to be focusing on what we have, and what we can do with it. That's optimism to me. You know, one time I was driving my dad somewhere, and we hit every single red light. And I turned to him and I say, we could be frustrated. Or we could just rejoice that we have more time together. And then we're going to be stuck at the lights regardless. So then the question is, what do we do with it?
Kim Meninger
Well, and that brings me to what you said about optimism as a choice, right? Because I think that's a really helpful frame is say, if the reality is such, we're going to be here anyway. If we don't, if we can't control it, if there's no manipulating the situation, we get to at least choose how we engage with it, and the mindset that we bring to it. And so I'm curious if you have thoughts on how do you do that more actively? If that's not your natural tendency? Is there a way to shift to that approach? Like, is there is it a thing you practice?
Moshe Cohen
It's, it's a life habit. And like any habit, it needs to be acquired. And I fully respect people who have a hard time doing that. Right? I have bad habits that I want to change. And I think you know, it, first thing starts with intention, you have to be aware of what you're doing and decide whether you want to keep doing it. So if you keep focusing on what you don't have or focusing on the negative, that's a choice you're making, and you could make a different choice. Having said that, changing your life choices, choices is actually very difficult. Right, you know, otherwise we'd all be fit and thin and, you know, get our store work done on time. Like if changing our choices was, was easy, we do it already. And it's not impossible, because it really involves a never-ending series of micro choices in the moment, deciding to view things one way versus the other. So you want to think about any time you've had to change a habit or change your choices? What has worked for you in terms of being able to do that? What kind of support did you need from other people? What kind of processes or mechanisms? Did you set up for yourself? You know, some people meditate some people journal, there's lots of things that people do to try to change their habits over time. None of it's easy. And if you look, I wasn't always like this, right? So for me, I just came to the conclusion that if I don't control the situation, the only thing I can control is my attitude. And part of it, I was influenced by Viktor Frankl. I don't know if you've encountered Man's Search for Meaning. But the guy was really stripped of everything and encountered enormous tragedy. And he said, The only thing I have left is my attitude. They can't control my mind. And I absorbed that. I said, You know what? He's right.
Kim Meninger
And when I think about that, I think about it through the lens of empowerment, right? Because I, you know, not, not to overcomplicate this conversation, and certainly not to blame the victim in situations where it is frustrating, like you said, this is not easy work, or else we would all be wise, very differently. But, but I feel like a lot of times, going, the attitude, that negative attitude where you're you're sort of focusing on what you don't have is giving your power away. It's, it's not coming from a place of what is within my control.
Moshe Cohen
Yeah, and that empowerment is so important. I mean, there's a line I have right in the first essay because I named the books after the first essay. So optimism is a choice, the name of the first essay, and there's a line in it that says optimism needs to be our choice because all other choices are worse. And because there might be times when it's all we've got. So it's not like it's easier, natural for us to be optimistic, especially when things are bad. It's just what else are you going to do? Right, anything you else you do is in a way worse?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm also thinking about the fact that when you talk about creating a new habit, how important it is, to be present with yourself during these situations, because the old habit of not being optimistic is so ingrained that if you're not paying attention, you're just going to have these automatic responses to different situations and not give yourself the space to think differently.
Moshe Cohen
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting, because I wrote the optimistic pessimist for a pretty simple reason is that so, you know, in the optimistic pessimist was just a new book. I, I say that, you know, outwardly, I'm a relentless optimist and focused on the positive, but alone in the dark, I retreat into my own mind and I struggle with worry and anxiety. So, it's not like this comes natural for me, it's that I have to choose. You know, what I say is that my optimism is not a product of my natural inclination. But it's an intentional practice that I've adopted and turned into a life habit. And I don't want anyone to think that this is easy, and it's certainly not easy for me, I will get upset and I'll get sad, and I will get negative unless I choose otherwise. You know, one of the essays in the new book is called pessimism is a luxury. And the last line in that essay is that every day the universe makes its move, and the next move is up to us like optimism. Pessimism is also a choice, just not a good one.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's really powerful. And I'm glad you brought up the fact that optimism can coexist with other feelings of sadness or worry because I think about that myself. I've had a lifelong anxiety disorder, I get incredibly anxious. I also consider myself to be a very optimistic person. But when you say in the dark, right for me, the worst moments are always the middle of the night or when I'm trying to fall asleep when I'm going went about my day. And I'm sort of out in the worlds, I can manage a little bit differently. But in those solitary moments when there's nothing else to distract me, that is the, that is the hardest part and a half to try to play mine.
Moshe Cohen
I think we're more similar than different. And, you know, during the day, we're busy and we're distracted. And then in that middle of the night, is just us. And our minds go to all of the possible things that could go wrong. Those possibilities are pretty much endless.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yeah, well, and it's interesting thinking back to the pandemic, too, because you're talking about how horrible it was for so many people. And there's a part of me that has always felt a little bit of shame that during the pandemic, during the shutdown, I actually struggled with less anxiety than ever before, because I had my family in one place, they were in one container, I didn't have to worry about them, they weren't off doing different things, I could see them. And so even though I was obviously worried about the world, and lots of other things, I felt this sense of control that I don't ordinarily feel. And so it was this very interesting moment for me to navigate. Because I wanted to be empathetic, I wanted to be sensitive to people who are in this really difficult spot, but I also had the luxury of my husband was able to, you know, partner, take the burden of the homeschooling off of me. And like we had a we had a lot of support that other people didn't have. But I was incredibly grateful that we were able to just kind of spend that time together. And so, so sometimes I think like, oh, maybe I'm just selfish.
Moshe Cohen
You know, you're grateful. But with a little bit of guilt mixed in there's a little bit almost survivor's guilt, but not quite. And I think you can be a little bit more generous with yourself, that your circumstances were what they were. And yeah, you did have some opportunities that other people didn't. That's not a bad thing. It just is. What it is. There were people out there who had the same exact opportunities that you did, and all they could think of is the negative. So again, your circumstances are what they are. And of course, not everybody's circumstances are the same. And the question is, can you still see the positive but you know, I had a LinkedIn post the other day that I said, optimism is easy when everything's going well. But can you still see the positive when everything's falling apart? And if you can't, I don't blame you. It's hard. And if you can, you're gonna have a better life. So, you know, the way I see it is, I look up at the sky, and it's cloudy. And some people say, well, optimism is imagining that it's not going to be cloudy forever. But who knows, it might be optimism is remembering that there's a sun above the clouds. But who cares? I can't see it. For me, optimism is not noticing how pretty the clouds are. Right there, they're there my reality. And the question is, can I really appreciate the texture of the clouds and the different shades of grey in the clouds, and how they move in the sky? And I get a lot of joy out of that. So I don't need them to be anything but cloudy, I'll just enjoy what's there. If it's cloudy Island or the clouds if it's sunny, I love the sun. And that's how I tried to that's how I tried to live my life is kind of take what's there and do the best you can with it.
Kim Meninger
That’s a really important point too, is that optimism is not necessarily longing for the return of something right and knowing the sun will come out. I really liked that. The way you describe that because it is fine. It is truly finding the positive in the moment that you're in it's not staying connected to some imaginary future it's appreciating something in the, in the situation that you're currently in.
Moshe Cohen
Even as you acknowledge that I like sun better and I miss when it was sunny and my son for my birthday bought me a telescope we've had clouds every single night I haven't even been able to, to set up my telescope once. So it would be nice to be able to see, to see the stars and, and until then. Alright, so it's cloudy. So you know when it rains I think yeah, I don't have to water my garden today. You know, it's like, you just do with it. What you got
Kim Meninger
Do you have to catch yourself? Like, do you find yourself? Do you have to redirect yourself sometimes? Or like, how do you? I'm just thinking of the habit-building phase, right? Where you're, you're present enough to recognize that your mind is going down the darker path. what's the, what's the shift look like?
Moshe Cohen
So, self-awareness is the cornerstone of any ability to do anything. So first of all, to be aware that you're going down a negative path. And I don't always catch myself as quickly as I'd like to, but you know, the more aware I can be, the better I have a chance. Then secondly, friends, having other people there, to kind of help you get through it all. And other people who can help you see yourself help you see other directions to go in. Those are all critical things. I mean, there have been times when I've been pretty negative. And I've had friends say, yes, that's one way to see the situation. And here's another way to see the situation. And it's not that I didn't know that in the abstract, but I wasn't able to go there myself. But hearing from somebody else, I resisted it, but it was still there, it was out there, I couldn't unhear it. So you know, so getting support from others. taking time away from our distractions to actually reflect on what we want. Writing it down can help mean I do a lot of writing. And I don't do journaling. I'm a terrible journal where I like I have like, stacks of four-page journals that I started and abandoned. And so I found that journaling is not something that works for me. But writing, writing down my thoughts, my ideas in a way that actually share them with other people that motivates me to write them. And a lot of my writing is like self-therapy. So I like to say that in Collywobbles I wrote a self-help book for me, it turns out, it helps other people too. But that's why it's so authentic, because well, I know what the issues were because I was trying to help myself through them.
Kim Meninger
That’s the best way to be of support someone else. Authentic form of support when you been in that place yourself? Yeah, and I like what you're saying about that combination. I think the self-awareness is so important. Sometimes I say things like, in other contexts, to the people that I speak to, that anytime you feel something uncomfortable, whether that's anger or frustration worry, you know, it's just something kind of hits you that it's essentially your body's check engine light, right? Because something just happened. And that it becomes this moment where you can look under the hood and examine it differently, as opposed to just going with it and automatically reacting to it to just pause for a moment and just say, what, what just triggered that within me what, and then just by virtue of catching it and examining it, you give yourself space to make a choice.
Moshe Cohen
Yeah, no, it's so true. And, you know, it happens in so many different realms of our lives. You know, I've struggled with anxiety as well, when I was in my 20s, I had lots of panic attacks. And a lot of them were, you know, I'd feel something weird in my body. And then I think, Oh, I'm about to die. And finally, actually, it was at one of my doctors that really helped me with that. And he said, Listen, your problem is that you're a pessimist. Something happens and your thought goes to the worst thing it could possibly be, instead of saying, well, it could be that, but it could be this other benign thing, also. And I was like, Well, I am being a pessimist. And it was a real reality check on not the situation, but what I was doing with it. So then, once you do that, you know you have a choice. And, you know, my choosing the most dire interpretation of what was going on was really just a reflection of my fears. And then it exacerbated my fears and it was very self-reinforcing. So once I was able to break the cycle by saying okay, yes, I can choose to worry about it this way. Or I can just wait out five minutes and see if I'm still around, and if I am around, chances are didn't kill me. And then, Alright, maybe I'm gonna be okay. And it's been it's been life-altering for me the ability to just catch my pessimism and to say, Okay, what else could I do?
Kim Meninger
You're making me, I want to ask you another question because you're making me think about when it comes to anxiety too. do that there is this, at least for me this natural tendency to want to play out the worst-case scenario so that I feel prepared for it in some way, right? Like, there's this sense of control that comes with feeling like you know what to do or know what's going to happen. And, and although our imaginations are usually far worse than reality, that it is a trick we play on ourselves, this, this idea that, Oh, I'm gonna if I'm trying to think of even an example related to what you were saying, but I guess what I'm wondering is, how do we make ourselves feel safe, to be more optimistic to let go of going to that worst place? Because going to that worst place feels useful in a weird way? If you know, it sort of feels like we're, we're in more control?
Moshe Cohen
Yeah, I, I don't know if I have a great answer to you. On this one. I think you're absolutely right. When we feel anxious, we try to have some control. And one way we have control is by saying, Okay, I'm going to imagine every scenario and make a plan for it. And I think the place to start is to realize that that's not going to work, you can come out with 100 different plans for all the worst-case scenario, and the actual scenario is going to be number 101, that you didn't think of. So mostly life just kind of overtakes us. And no matter how we plan, stuff happens that we didn't predict. So I don't think we should completely dismiss that. So spend a little bit of time allowing yourself to think about some of the most likely scenarios, right, if you're on a plane, look to where the exit doors are. Okay, that's not an irrational thing to do, just to know how far you are from an exit in which way you should go in. But then stop worrying about the plane going down. Because chances are if the plane crashes into the mountainside, knowing where the exit door wasn't going to help you anyway. So to recognize that some of your control is really just an illusion. And that no matter how well you plan, you're not going to be able to, to control things. So there's this process of letting go, I used to have a fear of flying, which unfortunately developed in my 20s, just about one time, I started flying for work. And I was one of those terrified people, every time there was a bump or some turbulence, I would like hold my breath, and I would jump. And then one day, I realized I don't have any control here. If the plane goes down, holding on to the seat in front of me, won't save me. And I said, if I have no control, I might as well just let go and enjoy the ride. And it was a conscious decision to do that. And I gotta tell you, it's life-altering. I actually like turbulence. Now it's kind of a ride. And I have a lot of faith in the planes. I love airplanes. And I know, I know how well they build them. And the fact that we hear about plane crashes is because they're so rare. And they happen. I'm not going to be able to control anything anyways. So yeah, know the basics, know how to, you know how to find the, the life vest and know where the exits are, and actually pay attention once in a while when they do their little briefing. But beyond that, like go and enjoy the ride. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Imagine you were sitting in a chair in the sky, looking out at the world below us. That's amazing. So, why ruin it for myself with being scared of it? If I can't do anything anyway.
Kim Meninger
That's a great example. Because I am still battling my fear of flying. There's a part of me that knows exactly what you just said. And another part of me that doesn't understand it well enough to feel every time we land. I feel like I escaped death. It's a miracle that we actually got from one place to another. And I like that idea of just trusting. Maybe I don't I don't need to go to aviation school. I just need to trust that the people who are flying did.
Moshe Cohen
And you know, trust the numbers. How many plane crashes do you hear about each day? And how many planes are flying? I mean, there's like 900 flights out of Logan Airport alone every single day. And they all seem to be fine. So every once in a while you hear about something in the context, you're more likely to get struck by lightning crossing the street. I mean, it's really very rare. And I know that that doesn't help enough because anxieties aren't rational but just to remember that my odds are so good that if I choose to be scared, I'm choosing to be scared of something that is very unlikely. [Yeah.] It's, again, I respect people who have fears that are hard to overcome, I certainly have some of those. And all we do is just keep trying to improve our life experience, by striving to be more positive. That doesn't mean we're always going to get there. And it doesn't mean we have to beat on ourselves when we don't get there. You know, I think a lot of it also has to do with our narratives, and what we tell ourselves. And you talk a lot about imposter syndrome. And what is impostor syndrome? If not a narrative that we tell ourselves, right? We tell ourselves, I'm really not good enough, but nobody else has figured it out yet. And that's just the story you tell yourself. And since you're telling yourself these stories, in theory anyway, you should be able to have some ability to manage what stories you're telling yourself. [Yes.] So if you're pessimistic, you're telling yourself a story about the situation, either what it is or what it's going to be. And if you become aware of it, then you get to choose whether to continue telling yourself that story. Or to respect that story but tell yourself another story alongside it. Yes, this pain I feel in my shoulder could be a heart attack. Or it could be the fact that I just kayaked for five hours. And either one of them is possible. But I'm gonna go with a kayak for now because I'm still here to think about it. And I did, in fact, kayak for five hours.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love that. I think that this is such a helpful conversation because it is a work in progress. And I think it's important, especially for those of us who are perfectionists to not set an expectation that there's a switch, you can flip and suddenly I'm gonna go from A to Z, right? That it's a function of the little choices you make along the way. And they're going to be times when you do it well, and they're going to be times when you don't, and that's okay.
Moshe Cohen
Yeah, I am. So with you there. And, you know, it goes to two of my core beliefs. One is that every once in a while, we should stop ourselves and ask ourselves the question of what am I telling myself right now? And if you have a hard time doing that, enlist a friend or colleague or someone else to ask you that question, what are you telling yourself right now? And it's incredibly illuminating? Because once we dissect what we're telling ourselves, usually, we have the ability to manage it a lot more. And the other one is that life happens in moments that we could have a perfectly great experience, but something happens. And in that moment, we feel anxious, or in that moment, we lose confidence. And in that moment, we tell ourselves, oh, no, calamity is upon us. And we need to slow down and breathe and manage that moment, to get ourselves into a mental emotional state where we can start telling ourselves other stories, and we're not always going to be successful. But if we're still around, the fact that we failed, is not that significant, because we're still here to hear.
Kim Meninger
We live to tell him, right?
Moshe Cohen
Exactly. If we're still here to worry about it, then we're still here and that's, that's something that no…
Kim Meninger
That’s a victory in itself. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Moshe, thank you so much. This is such an inspirational conversation. Where can people find you if they want to find your books, if they want to follow you and learn more about your work?
Moshe Cohen
So I, I've got a big footprint on LinkedIn. Just look for Moshe Cohen negotiation. I'm usually the person that, that pops up. You can look on my website. It's www dot negotiating table dot com and there's links to my books there as well. You can always look for me on Amazon or in your local bookstore. You know, Collywobbles, How to Negotiate When Negotiating Makes You Nervous, or Optimism is a Choice and Other Times Ideas. And hopefully, in a few weeks, you'll see another one called the optimistic pessimist. So yeah, I'm pretty easy to find.
Kim Meninger
Well, congratulations on the new book. And thanks again for being here.
Moshe Cohen
It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me.