In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the fear of flourishing. Many of us grew up in families where we were made to feel that chasing our dreams meant getting too big for our britches. Or we’ve been afraid that if we become too successful, we’ll lose our friends or our community. My guest this week, Rebecca Anne Nguyen, author of the new novel, The 23rd Hero, shares her journey of overcoming self-doubt as she pivoted to novel writing. She also shares strategies for addressing our fears of flourishing so that we can live our best lives.
About My Guest
Rebecca Anne Nguyen (she/her) is the author of The 23rd Hero, a 2024 Reader's Choice Award winner for Best Adult Novel (Bronze). She is also the co-author of the Foreword Award-winning memoir, Where War Ends. Her writing has been published in the New York Times, Insider, and Slackjaw, among others. She lives in Milwaukee.
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Website: https://rebeccaannenguyen.com
Book Links:
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
All right, welcome, Rebecca. It is such a pleasure to meet you. I'm really excited for our conversation, and I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Thank you so much, Kim. It's great to be here. I'm super excited to chat with you today. I'm Rebecca Anne Nguyen, and I am a writer, a playwright, and recently, a novelist. So my, my debut novel came out just a few weeks ago, and that was a really interesting pivot for me because I started my career in theater. So working in I went to school for musical theater. I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree, so I'm a classically trained actress, and I never in 1000 years thought I would write a novel. So it's been kind of a wild journey, transitioning from theater and living in Los Angeles and working in the film industry to pivoting more toward nonfiction writing, marketing, digital content strategy, and finally ending up here, where I'm sort of back to where I started telling stories and, and, and exploring a new, a new world for me, which is writing fiction.
Kim Meninger
That's so fascinating. And I think you, you sort of captured what I was thinking when you said telling stories, that'd probably be the through line that goes through all of it, right? Like, what tell me more about storytelling and what it means to you and how you have decided to go in that direction?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Yeah, it's, that's a great point. Yeah, it's definitely a through line through everything that I've done, and I think it's taken me, you know, probably a couple of decades to figure out, like, what's the medium that I where I feel like I'm really kind of thriving and feeling comfortable and feeling like I have something to say, and it's in a format that makes, makes me feel good when I'm working on it. I think I love being on stage. I love that feeling of being in flow, where you're not thinking and you're just sort of letting whatever you know, kind of come through you. You know, you have a lot of preparation beforehand, but once you get up there, it's sort of that really being really present, and that moment to moment, you know, back and forth, that collaboration with the other the other folks who are on stage with you. So, so that sort of flow feeling, I think, is what I what I've always ended up chasing that, that feeling where it's, it's inspiration, and it's sort of coming through you. And I think transitioning into doing more play-writing and doing, doing more of the writing, I was able to find that as well. I think, I thought it was more of energy from the audience, but what I found is it's actually the, the act of creating, the act of the creative process, and that, that exciting feeling of, and it's not all the time, right? Like sometimes you're just, you're pounding the keyboard, or you're just putting in the work, but, but those moments when it's really flowing through you and happening are so exciting and rewarding that it's, it's worth all of the times when you have to sort of struggle to get there, I think it's
Kim Meninger
You're, you are activating parts of me that I haven't thought about in a long time. Because when I was a kid, I dreamed being an actress. I always wanted to do that, but what I found was I was really insecure about playing a role that wasn't me, and what I've come to over time is I am really comfortable on stage, and I love sort of performance, but only of my own [yes] and so I'm curious because I guess I wonder what the relationship is to confidence when you are depicting a character right, like when you're engaged with other actors who are all laying apart, and everyone has, like, their own talents that they bring to This like, does that trigger self-doubt, or does being a different character actually allow you to be more confident in some ways? Like, I would love to hear what you think about that.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Yeah, that's so interesting, because I feel like I might have been the opposite of you, where it felt safer to be someone else, and the more different from me, the better. Like, I could almost hide in there and like, really commit and become a totally different a different person. But I had a harder time when it was a little closer to home. I had a really hard time starting to when I had more opportunities, through work and through my, my career, to speak as myself in front of an audience, or being more of like a teaching capacity or running a workshop. That was really scary for me because I didn't have any a character to hide behind or a story to hide behind. It felt like, oh my gosh, this is just me and, and, and that was revealing to me, because it, it showed me how like. Had some work to do when it came to confidence and self-esteem.
Kim Meninger
That's so interesting, how it takes different forms, or self-doubt takes different forms, right? And, and I would imagine so if we think a little bit about the storytelling part and the creative process, there's a vulnerability that comes with that, right, like you're deciding what you share and how you share it, and how does that feel when you imagine, or you've done this already, so you don't even have to imagine, like you're putting that out into the world, right, especially in a world that's ready to evaluate everything. And you know, five stars, and, you know, there's rating systems everywhere, like, how do you, how do you get to a place where you can put that into the world and not be terrible?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
It would, yeah, it was. It's been a journey. I mean, years long, long journey. And when I started out, when I started working on the book, I was so deeply insecure that I, you know, I would start every conversation with, with something along the lines of, I have no business to be writing a novel, but, you know, or like, really feeling like I didn't deserve to even, even try. And I had to tell myself, I had to sort of give myself permission to write a really bad novel, like I had to let it be okay to just totally fail. And because of my lack of confidence, just assuming I absolutely would fail. But it was kind of freeing, in a way because I didn't have any didn't put any pressure on myself, I didn't have expectations, and I sort of let it be okay to just be a beginner, and over time, you know, I tried things and I failed, and I went to workshops and I read books and I got advice, and I got lots of feedback from people who didn't know what they were doing. And so over time, I learned, you know, because I'm not, I wasn't an experienced novelist, but I'm a competent person, and I can learn new skills, right? I can, I can learn as long as I'm admitting I don't, I don't know everything I need to know. Let you know. Let's learn more. And but it did. It took years for me to be able to say, I, It's okay that I'm doing this. I have a right to do this. I don't have to be in the literary crowd, or I don't have to have my MFA. I don't need anyone's permission. And also, you know, the story that I'm telling is valid. I had a lot of insecurities around the actual story, and is it good enough? It's not deep enough, it's not literary enough. I mean, there's 1000 different things I sort of told myself, and I, yeah, I still, it's still scary that it's, that it's out there, and I've absolutely had, you know, some trolls and my one-star ratings and, you know, like that comes with, I think, every book that exists, but, but the journey that I, that I've gone on over the past, you know, five years of working on it, has absolutely been one of I have no business doing this to I Do have a right to tell the story I want to tell.
Kim Meninger
Oh my gosh, everything you say has applicability to so many other aspects of our lives too, right? I was writing down, as you were talking the whole idea of it being okay to be a beginner, recognizing that you're, you're a competent person who can learn new things. I think that's so important for us to remind ourselves of because we're so hyper-aware that we're learning in the beginning of our lives, when we're going through school and everything's a class, and you know, then you get out into the world, and it's not modularized in that way. It's not packaged as a learning experience. And so we forget that something new is obviously going to take some time to learn and master. And so just reminding ourselves that this is just a different phase of our lives, but it's all the same fundamental skills that we've been using all along is so powerful. And then also the permission piece, because I think that's something that we all tend to do, is, who am I to? Dot, dot. Dot, right? Like there's all these other people in this space that are so much better than I am, so much more qualified and competent, and what do I have to contribute? Or how do I stack up to these other people? And so those key points really stood out to me. And I know I jumbled them all together, but I want to give you a chance to respond if there's anything else that comes up for you.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Yeah, no, it absolutely did when you were talking about, I love the example of school, and like, when we're young, it's okay not to know, and we're constantly told that by teachers. And, yeah, our whole world is learning, but yeah, it's like the second you get out of maybe get out of college, and you're, you're in the workforce, or you're starting a business, whatever you're doing, suddenly we are sort of incentive, incentivized to just be experts at things. And which is it's, I see it too when I. Much, you know, Tiktok, I feel like there's a whole culture of sort of, this is my opinion, and therefore I'm an expert, and you should listen to me. And there's you know, and there's tons of you know, valid advice and opinions for sure. But I, I feel like young people especially are, are incentivized to know it all, and they have to have this personal brand and be always be confident and know what they're talking about, and, like, make a video about it, and be really confident. And what a lot of pressure that is, and, and as someone who's not as young as I used to be, let me tell you, it's like you you're probably never going to feel like you know it all because there's always someone who knows more or has done more, even if you've won every award you could possibly win, and you've reached the heights of whatever field you're in, you know, I don't know the, the, the external, the external feedback from the rest of the world, like is never going to give you what you want in terms of feeling like you've arrived. So I think you have to, you're gonna have to find that inside yourself.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The external validation piece is something that I think about a lot. Anytime you have a public presence there, is that just, I think, instinctive fear of being rejected, right? It's just part of the way that we're wired as humans. But I don't know where we are at this point, but what 8 billion people on the planet? So like the, the idea that we're ever going to please everybody, or that we're even trying to is absurd when we start to actually think about it, and when I think about what you're sharing in your stories, are you? Are you sharing yourself? Because you find it, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so it could be another. I don't want to make this binary, but I'm just thinking about it these terms. Like, are you sharing this because this is something that you believe in and want to put out to the world, and who cares what other people think? Or do you see it as a service? Like, do you think other, I'm doing this for a certain group that this is going to resonate with, and I want to provide this to them, or maybe somewhere in between. But like, how do you think about who's this for when you put something out?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
I think for this book, for the novel, the 23rd Hero is the name of the novel, and I think it's probably more the latter. I I started writing it because I was going through a really a difficult time in my personal life. I was going through divorce. I had two really young kids. I sort of became a single parent overnight. I was living, you know, 1000 miles away from any family who could help me, and just really a dark time, and I started to write to give myself an escape from my reality. So it really started as just, just creating this alternate world where, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a love story, instead of being, you know, a single parent with kids and kind of no escape that my main character is a time traveler, and she can, you know, go to other worlds and other, other centuries. And so it's sort of this, this call and response, like real life versus this fantasy world, really and over time, as I was working on it, I think that that is my hope, that if there's people who were going through anything where, where you came out the other side, like not believing in love anymore, or not, not believing in yourself, or lacking confidence, or going through some sort of emotional trauma, that they could pick this up and escape and have relief, find some relief, but also come out the other end feeling a little bit more hopeful.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I love that you have the power to connect with other people who are on a similar journey. But I also wonder, like, what is the experience for you personally to maybe therapeutic, is too strong of a word, but does it feel? Does the ability to, to do that kind of create some more peace for you too?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Absolutely, it was a balm. I think I, I had tried in the beginning, you know, just typical. What can I do for coping mechanisms? You know, just like, drink too much red wine, or I'm binge-watching Outlander, or, like, and nothing's working. And so I was like, I need. I needed. And I also, you know, in therapy, all the things, and I, I did The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron this. So it's a 12-week self-guided course to sort of reclaim. What she talks about is, you know, we're all creative. We're all creative beings. And some of us express that through cooking meals for people that we love. And some of us might express it through when working or working with tools in the garage, or some people might express it through making music. Um, but we're all creative. And so she, through this course, she sort of helps you find, find that again, and look at if you stopped, if you stopped participating in, in creative activities that you used to love, like What stopped you? And you sort of go back and examine that and, and the book was sort of born through me doing that course, and she's one of the one of the people I dedicated the book to, because of that.
Kim Meninger
I love that. I think that's such a, a powerful reminder, too, about the inherent creativity that we all have, because so many of us too are telling ourselves the story that, oh, I'm not good at that. I'm not creative. I'm not you know, and it could be creativity, it could be any number of things that we have just decided we're not good at, and to just kind of going back to that concept of not needing permissions, like, who says, who says, I'm not, I'm not creative. And there are a lot of different ways to express yourself in the world, too.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Absolutely, yeah, every you know, I think I really believe that everyone is and for the folks who will say, Oh no, I'm not, then, if you look at what they do for work, or how they interact with their friends and family, or how they, you know, they arrange their furniture in their home, you know, like creative in ways that I met, I feel like I'm not absolutely, and would love their help. Like, where do I put my couch? This is all valid. It doesn't have to. Not everyone is writing, writing books, and that's a good thing. We need. We need everything.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely, I want to shift gears a little bit, although I do think that it's very related to what we're talking about too is when you and I first connected, you shared with me this concept of, like, fear of flourishing, and I want to hear more about what that means to you and how it shows up.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Yeah, I think, I think it's similar to the fear of success, but with a little a little more nuanced in that it's the idea that it doesn't feel safe to succeed, and it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel safe to be living your best life, which means you know whatever success might look like to you, but also happy and comfortable and confident and connected and, and having room to grow and feeling free to sort of pursue that growth in whatever avenues are of interest to you. And I think for me, you know, I growing up, I was coming from a culture that felt very much like, Are you too good for your home, or if you want to live elsewhere or travel elsewhere. What are we not good enough? It's, it's sort of that kind of vibe and, and so that was very deeply embedded in me at like a cellular level. So sort of this idea of, if you succeed or if you do something that none of us have done, you are rejecting us, like us being family, friends, community. If you achieve something, “better or more than,” it's sort of, you're snubbing us, or you're saying that what we chose for our lives isn't good enough. So it's sort of like, if I succeed, it means I have to give up my family or acceptance by my family or my friends.
Kim Meninger
That is so fascinating because it in, you know, I'm not judging anybody for having those feelings, but in my mind, that reflects a deeper insecurity on the part of The people who hold those beliefs more than anything else, right? And so how do you make peace with that? Because it is so primal to want to, you know, make your family happy, or to, you know, not want to disconnect from your community, to have that sense of belonging. How do you meet your own needs while also staying connected to people who want to keep you?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Yeah, I think there's for me. There was two parts to it, and the first was finding something that I loved, where the love was bigger than my fear of not being accepted, or my fear of failure, something that I was just, in my case, this story, these characters, I, I was just, I fell in love with this, with this world that had come out of me and, and I and it was more important to me than it made it easier to accept. You know, if people don't like this, or they don't want me to be doing this, that I'm willing to accept that, because I have to do this like I love this so much. So that was key. And then it also, also to actually, sort of to start, you know, sharing some successes, or, you know, communicating, hey, I’m doing this and that, and to, you know, post it publicly, to talk to people about it, and to and to really get a little more objective about their reactions, and to realize that, well, maybe I was just maybe part of this is in my head. Maybe part of it is my fear of not being accepted. And as I've, you know, I had a play produced this year. And I, you know, the book come out and you know some of the folks who I was afraid of, of kind of giving me the side eye, I guess, when it came to all of these, you know these successes this year came out and supported me. And you know who maybe there's, they're throwing some shade, and I don't see it, or who knows what's going on in their minds, but what actually happened was no one said, How dare you. No one said that. That was a lot of that probably was in my head.
Kim Meninger
That's even more fascinating because there is an interplay there between the messages you're getting from other people who may have some fears and insecurities about what's going to happen to their relationship with you, or what they're going to feel if you go in this new direction, but also the story you're telling yourself, right? Like, is this real, or is this your fear projected onto other people? And there is no there are no guarantees in life, right? Like we have no idea what the outcome is going to be. But I love what you said about finding something that you love that's bigger than fear. Because I think when the people around you who most care about you, they may be afraid of something hypothetical, but once they see you and in your glory, right? Like doing something that you love, that you do well, eventually, most of them will catch up. Eventually that what felt scary when they, when it was abstract, they start to see how this works. And so I think it is so important to not live your life trying to fulfill other people's dreams.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
100%, 1,000% actually, yeah, yeah, especially when it's there's so much that just sort of goes unsaid. And I think, you know, we pick up on these sort of subliminal vibes. It's not, maybe it's not something that someone actually said to you, but it's just, you know, other, other types of microaggressions or, or little rejections. And, yeah, it takes, I think it takes, courage to do what you want to do anyway, and courage, meaning like you're still afraid, but you're going to do it anyway.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yeah. And I'm glad you brought it that point up, too because it's not that you ever reach a point where, okay, I'm not afraid anymore, so I'm gonna do it. You push through it, right? Like you are afraid, but you do it anyway because it's that important to you. [Yeah.] What's next for you? I mean, I know the novel just came out, so I don't want to rush you, but I'm just curious, like, do you see? Like, what's your vision for the for the future?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Yeah, I have another, another novel that I'm, that I'm working on now that's in a very early stages. There's another production of a play that I wrote that's going to be produced in Texas this fall. So I'm going to go, go down and check that out. I'm excited about that, but I think getting back to writing, especially because there's such a, there's such a strong temptation to have all of these, these quality metrics that I'm checking when the book comes out. You know, there's you can check the ratings and reviews, and you can check your Amazon sales rank. I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's a nightmare. And so I'm really trying to focus on making something new and just ignoring the stuff that I can't control because it will, it will drive you to the dark side, I think.
Kim Meninger
And so do you, do you look at the reviews, or do you deliberately avoid them? Like, how do you? How do you do that?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
I deliberately. I have learned this year to deliberately avoid I, I realized that I had, I had in my mind. I had all of these ideas about how I thought this would go like I had ideas about who I thought would like the book and who wouldn't. And I thought critics will hate it but the people will love it. Why did I think that? I don't know, but it's turned out to be kind of, in some cases, it's the opposite. In some cases, people I you know, that people I thought would not like it, they love it, and vice-versa. I mean, there's just no like, a book is so intimate. It's so intimate because it is a different experience for every reader. And so that's another thing to sort of grapple with. Is when you put your heart on the page, or, you know, you put yourself out there in any way, and when people react negatively, or not even negatively, it's just like, not their jam. It's not for them. That wow, that would that has been the most difficult part for me, that to say. Wow. I, I love this with all my heart. I worked on this for five years. I did. I blood, sweat and tears and money, and, you know, everything into it. And, you know, someone one stars it because they didn't like the title, or, or someone one stars it because they didn't fit, they couldn't finish it. Or that's just, I thought that I was ready for that. I thought my, my skin was thick enough for that. And it's what surprised me, is that it, it wasn't. And I really have had to learn what some interventions for myself like I cannot look at anything unless it's like a trade review from a professional reviewer. Then I'll look at that. That tends to be more, a little more objective and with more helpful feedback. But, but the, but the folks who are just like, thumbs up, thumbs down, that's not helpful to my mental health.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's so important because there, there is a way. And I say this as if it's this easy because I know it's not, but it's like when you see that there's a way of just saying that it wasn't for them, right? Like, no, there's no product on Earth that has a target market of 8 billion people. Everything is, you know, going to appeal to some and not others. And I think to just be able to get to a place where we can say, just because somebody gave it a one star, and I say that sort of metaphorically and literally, does not mean that it wasn't worth doing. Doesn't mean that it wasn't a really good product, right? And so it's, I think about this, a lot of like, whose hands are we putting our self-worth or confidence in? And does? Does a person who didn't take the time to finish it or doesn't understand what you are trying to do deserve the power of deciding whether or not you continue to express yourself fully in the world?
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
I love that that just gave me goosebumps. That, just like, who, whose hands do you put the power in that I I've been thinking about how I feel about the book, and I, I like it. I like the book. I, you know, I put a lot of time into it, and I, and I like to, and I, you know, had to read it 1000 times. And it's not perfect, but I think it's good. And I, and I'm happy with, I'm happy with where it landed, and I think it was the best I could do for where I was at the time. And so I've been focused on that, like, letting that be enough, like, how do I feel about it, instead of, how does the rest of the world feel? And letting the fact that I'm happy with it be that's, that's a win in itself. And I don't need, I don't need more than more. I mean, of course, you know everyone, it would be nice you have the claps and the sales and everything. That's really nice, but, but I think about the opposite. What if I wasn't happy about it, and then it'd be then it became a best seller? That would be mess with my head, too? So I'm trying. I'm trying to just let like, like my own assessment be, be valid and be enough.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, to be able to say I'm proud of this and I'm choosing to share it, and those who will benefit from it or want to experience it will have access to it and everybody else really doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't, we don't have to be everyone's cup of tea. This has been such a fantastic conversation. Rebecca, I feel like you, you have a really interesting background, very uniquely in this space of writing and playwriting and theater and everything. But like I said before, it has transferability to all of us, regardless of the work that we do. And so I'm so grateful to you for having this discussion with me, and I want to make sure that anybody listening who wants to read your novel. Who wants to follow you and learn more about all of your great work knows where to find you.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
Thank you so much. Yeah, so the novel is the 23rd Hero, and you can get it pretty much wherever books are sold. You can order on bookshop to support local independent bookstores. You can get it through Amazon or Barnes and Noble. You can also go to your local indie bookstore and have them order it for you if they don't already have it on the shelves. And that's another great way to support the indie stores. And I'm at Rebecca N writes, and I think it will be in the show notes, so that's my handle on all the socials, and that's Rebeccanrights.com
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Well, definitely that those will be in the show notes. And thank you again for being here, and it's just been such a pleasure to talk to you.
Rebecca Anne Nguyen
My pleasure. This was fantastic.