In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the neuroscience of confidence. Have you ever wondered why you make “stupid” mistakes? Or why you can’t form a coherent thought in a stressful meeting? My guest this week is Caroline Brewin, executive and leadership coach and founder of Brain Powered Coaching. Here she shares what happens to our brains under pressure and why we struggle with so much self-doubt. These insights can help us to feel less alone while recognizing that we’re not defective, we’re just stressed. We also talk about the risks to organizations when critical masses of employees experience stress and self-doubt.
About My Guest
Caroline is the CEO of Brain Powered Coaching, a professional Executive and Confidence coach, as well as having over 18 years of Global Investment Banking experience. Caroline is a published author, trainer, passionate speaker and thought leader on the Neuroscience of Confidence, inspiring audiences worldwide to uncover their strengths and lead authentically.
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Connect with Caroline:
Website: https://www.brainpoweredcoaching.com
Social Media: @brainpoweredcoaching
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Caroline. It is so wonderful to have you here today, and I would love to start our conversation by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Caroline Brewin
Thank you, Kim. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. So my name is Caroline Bruin. I am from the UK. I've lived in Australia, Singapore and, and back in the UK, I've been all over and over the years, and I started my journey in investment banking, and spent 18 years in that, in that world. And, you know, 18 years ago, it was a very male-driven world, primarily. And I guess what you know that this certainly the, the title of this podcast, and where my passion really is, is around helping people, particularly women, with confidence. And the reason why is because, having spent all that time in such a, a tough environment, what I found was so many people really struggled with things that it came up as you know, maybe they're not ready for promotion, maybe they don't have gravitas. It was the way that people described these kind of things were very much high level. But what I found having trained as a professional coach alongside my banking career, when I started coaching, and I'm sure you found this in yours as well. So much of what people struggled with was about confidence. And, so after 18 years of investment banking, I basically decided to escape, and I started my own business, Brain Powered Coaching, and we focused primarily on the neuroscience of confidence. So I trained from an applied neuroscience perspective, looking at the brain and behavior and how the two of them are linked, and then how you can when you understand those levers, how that can fundamentally help you shift how you behave, how you perform, whether that's individually or within an organization.
Kim Meninger
So that is fascinating to me, and I know this is a very big topic, so we could probably spend days discussing but can you share whatever you think is sort of the entry-level description of what we should know about the brain as it relates to confidence? Like, what we when we think about confidence, we're especially if you haven't been trained in neuroscience, right? That might not be the first thought, but like, how did you make that connection? And what do you think about when it comes to the relationship to confidence?
Caroline Brewin
Well, let me tell you a story because I think that really, it was the biggest light bulb that I had. So when I worked in banking, I really struggled with imposter syndrome. It was something that when I first started, I, I told them I didn't know anything about banking. I genuinely knew nothing about it, but I, you know, over the time, I learned a little bit, but I always felt that I should have known more, and I was surrounded by lots of people who are very technically based. And so imposter syndrome, that feeling of being a fraud, was there kind of on my shoulder so much of the time. And it really showed up when I was moving into a role which was the biggest role that I'd had. It was the Chief of Staff at the ops and tech area, which was 25,000 people. And so it was a big role, really exciting. It was focused on, you know, people and strategy and management, support and but when I started, I didn't know what I was doing at all. And I had that feeling of, Oh, my goodness, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. Why have they hired me? They're going to find out that I'm a fraud. And what happened was, I actually started making really stupid mistakes, and it was like I was frozen and things like, you know, putting the wrong date on an email that I checked 20 times. You know, my boss had said, take out one of the slides. Make sure you take out slide 23 it's, you know, it's confidential. I left it in, even though I thought I must do this, and I had so, so many of these things, which is, like, you know, I was kind of classed as a high performer, and, yeah, I was making really stupid mistakes. And then I learned about the brain and what happens when you're under pressure and basically, and if you understand this principle, it makes sense of so much of life, and that is that your brain can only function on a certain amount of energy. It's about 25 watts of energy, so a bit like a light bulb, and it will use 25 Watts of energy in whatever way it feels is the most appropriate. So it will prioritize that. It can't power up to 40 watts because it will fry like an egg. So it just has that, that 2525 watts. So if you are under stress, your brain doesn't use the prefrontal cortex so much, so that's the thinking part of your brain. That's the, they call it the executive functioning piece. It developed much later in our evolutionary process. What it does is it uses that energy towards the back of the brain, which is where we have our survival mechanism. And so that's the bit which is ready for powering us up, for fight, flight, freeze, those, those threat responses that we're probably quite familiar with. And, so, when you're under stress, when you're under high pressure, like I was in that role, your creative thought, your problem solving, your executive functioning isn't working and that's why you make stupid mistakes. That's why you can't think clearly at the time, when asked someone asks you a stupid question, a tough question, you just think, oh, and you freeze. That's why when you have an argument with someone, it's only afterwards you think of that brilliant thing. You think, oh, I should have said this, but it's your brain being really clever. It's an adaptive response. It's saying I don't need to be thinking of an executive functioning piece right now. I just need to survive. And for me, I was just like, Oh, my goodness, I wish I'd understood this. Because had I known that, I would have given myself so much more grace in situations where I thought I wasn't good enough. You know, I was being stupid. You know, how could I be so ridiculous that I would forget the answer to that, and then I would have been able to actually use tools and levers to be able to fix that as well. So that, for me, is that there's, there's, there's different pieces of it which come off that. But when, when you understand that, it is such a, it's such a central point to understanding how your brain operates in stress and things like imposter syndrome.
Kim Meninger
I love the way you shared that, and I think that is such an important principle. And I think about this a lot because it has implications for the narrative we hold about ourselves, right? Because, to your point, if I'm in a meeting and I suddenly lose my ability to articulate what I want to say, and I'm surrounded by all of these people that I perceive to be smarter than I am, I'm going to walk out of that room thinking, See, I knew I didn't belong in this room, right? I couldn't even say something intelligent in that moment, when, in reality, it's because of exactly what you just said. And the reason why the people around us aren't necessarily showing up that way is because that's not a triggering moment for them. They're triggered by different things, right? And I think that's a really important part of this as well, is that we all show up this way, but we all respond to different forces and different moments. So you know, if we're if, if we're thinking to ourselves, just like you said, I can't believe I made this stupid mistake. It must be me. It must be something wrong with me. Other people are going to make stupid mistakes in different contexts, right?
Caroline Brewin
Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is that we are we, we're so we're so hyper vigilant about ourselves in a way that other people just aren't so something that we walk away from a meeting thinking, Oh, my goodness, they're all going to think I'm such an idiot, you know. And we judge and, you know, repeat, repeat. And the truth is, you are someone an hour later, and they're like, Oh, I didn't even notice that, because they were thinking about their next question, or, you know, the senior leader, what they were asking or what they're having for lunch, or the argument they had earlier that day, right? So yeah, so we're so we're so tough on ourselves.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. And I think that is funny. I was actually just having this conversation with my 14-year-old son a couple of days ago too, just trying to let him know as early as possible that nobody thinks about us as much as we think they do, and that those nights that we spend worrying about, oh my gosh, what must people think? They're not, as you said, they're thinking about their own stuff. They're not paying attention in the way we think they are.
Caroline Brewin
Yeah, absolutely. And there's such tremendous freedom when you can just say, Okay, well, never mind the judgment. The judgment doesn't matter, and therefore I have control, or I can influence as much as possible, how much I'm going to judge myself.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think, I mean, there are probably people listening who are thinking, Yeah, but what if it's a really big mistake, or, you know, something that people do notice because there are times when maybe your manager gets mad, or you, you know, you your mistake has an impact. Yeah, but I think there's a difference there, and that becomes an opportunity for learning and to be able to look at it instead as it's not a catastrophic failure most of the time, right? It's more of a Okay, what can I do differently next time to make sure that this doesn't happen again? Right? And so we can take the we can take the lesson from it. We can process it productively. But if we're ruminating about it for weeks, then it's no longer, you know, it's not…
Caroline Brewin
It’s not helpful. It's not helpful, well? And the, the interesting thing is, there's something so simple, a really simple tool that you can use when you're in those situations. And I guess for me, it was always, oh, my goodness, what happens? You know, I ran the client relationship management team. What happens if I go to a client and they ask me a question about something and I don't know the answer, and because that was playing into my maybe I'm not good enough from a technical perspective in terms of my finance knowledge, and when I, I was thinking about it, when I was actually going for my an interview, for getting promoted, and I was talking to my coach, and I was in tears. I was in floods of tears, just going, Oh, I'm so frightened. You know? What happens? What happens if they ask me a question? And she said, Caroline, what are your values? And I said, you know, honesty, integrity, respect amongst a few others. And she said, Okay, so what if you're in a situation where you don't know the answer, don't lie about it. Tap into your values. And so, you know, instead of making something up, you just say, I don't have the answer to that right now, but let me check and get back to you. And no one, no one's going to say what I mean. You know, if you say that to every single question, people might slightly kind of look a little, little perplexed, but the vast majority of the times, people would much prefer for you to say, let me check and get back to you, rather than make something up. Because everyone always can tell when you do.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I love that strategy. I love that specific strategy, but I love the broader strategy that you're saying too, which is tapping into your values. Because I think about that a lot. We don't have proven systems for how to navigate our lives, right? There's no manual, there's no blueprint. And even if there were, your manual would have to be different from mine because we have different values and different interests. And so that is one of the things that I often say to people, too, is pause, right? Because we're so reactive and we're, we're rushing through these situations, is pause long enough to ask yourself, How do I want to show up in this moment? Right? Who do I want to be right now? What do I value most? What do I want to prioritize? And to your point, that honesty, that integrity, that comes with saying, I don't know. First of all, you're going to show up much more confidently after that too. You're not going to regret you're not going to be second-guessing yourself, worrying, oh no, everyone's going to find out I was making [Yeah, yeah] but also yeah, you can be proud of the fact that you stood firm in what you stand for. And I think we're, we're always second guessing ourselves, but when we come from a place of our values, we're much less likely to experience that regret and shame after the fact.
Caroline Brewin
Yeah, absolutely. And we actually did some research of 17,000 people. We've gotten over 17, 17,000 now, and we found that 90% of people said that they doubt themselves and second-guess their decisions. So, I mean, if you look around the table, nearly everyone else is second-guessing themselves, which is kind of reassuring, I think, from an individual perspective and from an organizational point of you, oh, my goodness. Like, that's a whole lot of people who potentially aren't bringing their thoughts, their ideas, their brilliance, their challenges, to the table because they're thinking, is this going to be the right thing?
Kim Meninger
Yes, you're absolutely right. And they're potentially making stupid mistakes, right? That are wasting time, and, you know, might have an impact on the business. So I think, you know, obviously no one's human. I mean, no, we're all human. No one's perfect. The idea that, you know, certain cultures that are perhaps a little bit more aggressive in nature, a little bit more toxic in nature, right? Are actually fueling this and creating a more hostile environment for people's brains to operate in, right? We should be paying more attention to because, you know, those kinds of systems might think that they're doing something right for their business, but they're actually not compatible with how the human brain operates.
Caroline Brewin
Absolutely, and this is what if so. If we come back to that original principle that we talked about in the beginning, your brain is operating on that 25 watts of energy if it feels it is under threat, and that is, you know, always influenced by the, by the environment it's in, it will be operating in that state of threat, just like I was feeling like I didn't know what I was doing. And actually that is the people, that's the manager, the leadership team, you know, the colleagues around them. And this is where this concept of psychological safety comes in, which is all around. Is it safe to show up and be me? And can I be myself in this environment? And it's about that brain's energy, because if you feel safe to be yourself, what you're going to get is much more creative thoughts, because you're using your prefrontal cortex much more problem solving, you know, really strategic ideas, versus being very shut down. And the more people feel under threat, the more they're focusable, narrow onto very much themselves, and very short-term thinking as well. Am I going to be safe? Is he going to stab me in the back? When's my you know, am I going to have a job? And so from an organizational perspective, it completely locks it up. And there was a really interesting piece by a guy called Sean Ake. He wrote a book called The Happiness Advantage, which is a it's a little bit old now, but it's unbelievable. It's such a great book. And he they did some research, and they found that the brain positive is 31% more productive than at negative, neutral or stressed like 30% Can you imagine if organizations can harness that? And I think that's what people don't understand. You know? They kind of go, Oh, it's a, it's a nice organization to work for. People seem quite motivated, and it's like, yeah, but do you know? Why? Do you know what the difference is in terms of that performance? It's because their brains can go, Okay, let's, let's create something wonderful.
Kim Meninger
And it’s so interesting when you think about people who will dismiss the conversation because they feel like, oh, that's fluff, right? That, oh, that's, that's not quantitative. That's not, you know, not the most important thing to think about when it comes to the business. But if you were, you know, when you're thinking about driving a car, you want to know about the engine [exactly] and we just dismiss the human side as less significant or afterthought, right?
Caroline Brewin
Yeah. Well, this, and this is where I think, that's where the work that I do, I think, has been, has been interesting and interesting to corporates, because so often, I think a lot of where we focused is, you know, it feels like, you know, the soft skills, we used to call them, right? But when you can create a bridge between, okay, well, you know the soft skills, but what is the, what's the neuroscience impact of that, and what's the actual reason why? What's the underlying reason why that, that bridge actually helps people, particularly those very analytical corporates, go, ah, that's the data. And when you give them the data, they can say, Okay, now we'll get it. That's what we'll invest in because we understand, really, that there is value in it, and that's the why.
Kim Meninger
So are you seeing that more often? Are you seeing organizations being open to these conversations? Like, obviously, there is a spectrum out there, but are there any shifts that you're noticing and willingness to discuss these types of topics?
Caroline Brewin
Yeah. I mean, I think what, what's very interesting is when I, when I talk to people around often, I'll my intro discussion will be with someone from a business perspective, who's interested in just the high-level neuroscience of confidence. Um, what, what we then do often is bring in the kind of HR teams, learning and development teams. And sometimes they say, Oh, we've already got this. And invariably, they definitely do not because neuroscience is really very much, you know, it's very, very early, really, in terms of how that's integrated into existing programs. And so people absolutely, when they start to get a little bit of a flavor of this go, oh my goodness, wow. And you know, as a result of some of the work we've done, we've seen a 30% increase in confidence levels, 30% reduction in stress, 25% improvement in happiness and positivity levels. And this isn't like we were saying. Saying, yay. You know, aren't we all happy and positive? It's like, no, no, you're going to get 30% increase in your, in your performance. So let's talk about this from an ROI perspective. And you know, there's real business interest in that?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, absolutely. And what are there other things that you could share with us about what individuals can do to start to move in that direction?
Caroline Brewin
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the other things, one of the other core principles from, from your brain's perspective, and why imposter syndrome in particular comes up, is that your brain is terrified of being excluded. It wants to be part of a tribe. You would know this very well. And if I bring this back to something which I'm sure we've all experienced, you know, when you're at school and you're, you're younger, and people are picking teams for sports, and you know, someone's at the front and picking out people, and other people are going and, you know, high fiving each other as they go over. And you're just getting more and more feeling of dread as you're like, I'm going to be the last one, right? I mean, oh, I don't know if they still do that. I really hope not because it's the worst situation. And so what they've actually found is that the areas of the brain associated with, with social pain, so that social pain of being excluded are actually overlap with the areas associated with physical pain. So, you know, it can be, you know, very painful for us to feel excluded. And so what brain really wants to be part of a tribe? If you take it back to caveman days, you know, that's when we needed to be part of a tribe to survive. You know, from the wooly mammoths or Tigers or whatever that, that danger was, if we were migrating, you needed to be together. And so from that perspective, when you understand around, from a, from an imposter syndrome point of view, what, what? Why it may come up is that there may be a level of hyper vigilance that we could have about our social standing. And so that hyper vigilance is actually an adaptive strategy. So the hyper vigilance is like, don't leave me, you know, I don't want to be someone who is, is excluded. And therefore it's really, you know, imposter syndrome. Syndrome is something like, you know, I don't want to be excluded. And how can I make sure that I'm not it's a big red, red flag for us. So with that in mind, understanding actually, so from our research, what we found was 52% of people experience imposter syndrome daily or regularly. So when you look around the room and you think, I'm the only one half of the people men and women. So really interesting. We got the, the gender stats for that as well. Men and women were actually the same. 52% of them experienced imposter syndrome very regularly. So it's not only you. It's something which is really, really normal. And even Einstein experienced imposter syndrome. And he said, the exaggerated esteem in which my life work is held makes me feel very ill at ease. I feel compelled to think of myself as an involuntary swindler.
Kim Meninger
I love that quote. I think that's such an important one to put into perspective, right, that we are certainly far from alone. And you know people, you would assume somebody like an Albert Einstein would be the, the last person to struggle, right?
Caroline Brewin
Exactly, and so it's really, really normal. So, so in terms of, you know, things for people which are really important for them to know is like, stop making false comparisons. You're, you're comparing yourself to people when you don't have any of the data around them. You know, their starting point is different. Their struggles are different. You know, if you're looking at yourself on so them on social media, we know, you know, there's the shiny bit, and there's a whole lot going on underneath that. And we've gotta let go of this idea that everyone else is on a pedestal and, you know, we're somewhere down the bottom, struggling. Because, you know what, everyone's, everyone's doing the best they can, but you know everyone's struggling too.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's such an important point too around the different starting points because I think a lot of our experience with confidence in the workplace seems to me to carry over from our experience in school. School. And when we're in school, we're part of a cohort that goes linearly through an education process. And so when we get into the class for the first time, we are kind of all at the same level. We're learning at the same right? We may have different skills and capabilities, but generally speaking, there aren't people in the room who have a lot more information or experience than we have, and then we go into the workplace, and we sort of bring those same expectations that I should be at the same level as everyone around me, and it's not the same paradigm, right? And I think it's really important, too to remind ourselves of that is that there are going to be people who are years ahead of us. There are going to be people who are not as experienced as we are, and so we have to shift the way we think about that.
Caroline Brewin
And, and everyone is bringing their own gifts to the table. So I was, I was invited to speak at a whole group about neuro the neuroscience of confidence. That's my kind of area, but they were all neuroscience coaches, some of them much more experienced than I was, and I was terrified, you know, thinking, oh my goodness, they're going to judge me so much. And then someone says, Caroline, you're bringing your perspective of this. You know, you've had all of the experience from your corporate point of view and your co you know, your training, and you're bringing all of that together in your way, own your space, where you've come from, and don't judge it by everyone else's. And this is the thing, I think, if people can lean back into that, you know, this is where I've come from, and, and I'm bringing all sorts of stuff to the table, which, yes, absolutely are different to everyone else, which is great. Awesome. How can we come to the best possible outcome together? That's because that's diversity of thought, and that's where you get the best possible solutions.
Kim Meninger
You’re absolutely right. And I think too, that a lot of our thinking is coming from a place of believing that there's one right answer, that there's one right way to do something, and you mentioned for creativity and innovation, and we're often coming into problems that either haven't been solved before or that we're looking for new ways to address. And so if you're looking for the, the one proven way to do something, you're not accessing your own creativity. You're not bringing those unique gifts to the table.
Caroline Brewin
Exactly. And you know, to your point earlier, you know, even if you don't necessarily have, you make a point. And it isn't like the Oh, everyone goes, Oh, fantastic point, Kim, what you are actually doing is, what you might do is stimulate the thought, Ah, no, that's not quite right, but you know, maybe and you've opened up a different door for something else. So trusting that that journey together is something you're going to take a few wrong turns, but you're contributing towards that being the best possible decision in the end.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and I think too, when it comes back to values, I often think about it as we have these conflicts in those moments where there's a value around staying safe and not exposing ourselves to that kind of fear that you're describing, of being excluded, being rejected in some way. And then there's a value around challenging ourselves and contributing and making an impact. Most of the people I know, you know, are high achievers. They want to make an impact but there's plain small because they're afraid. And so to ask yourself too, which value do I want to honor in this moment? Because, yeah, I'm guaranteed to stay, quote-unquote safe if I don't contribute to this conversation. But just as you're saying, I'm also not going to influence it in any meaningful way if I sit it out.
Caroline Brewin
What I mean, you're guaranteed failure, right? That's guaranteed failure if you don't try, congratulations. You are guaranteed to bail. I mean, again, in the research, we asked people around speaking up in meetings, and we found that 77% of people don't always speak up in meetings because they doubt themselves. I just think, oh my goodness, that's so many people who are holding back something which might be brilliant. [Absolutely yeah, and critical] Such a shame.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, because I think about it in, in multiple directions. Right on the innovation front, it could be an idea that no one's thought of. But on the risk management front, it could be, I'm not speaking up and saying, Oh, we really should think about this, because we're going to face this consequence. If we don't, we're thinking to ourselves, oh, if this were a good idea, someone else would have come up with it already.
Caroline Brewin
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, coming from my, my banking world, which obviously is a very regulatory-driven world, I think this is one of the things which. So in some ways, people have missed, I mean, there's a neurodiversity piece of having, you know, multiple different people around the table and their brains around the table. But even if you, you know, reach utopia in terms of that, if you don't create an environment where people feel safe enough to then speak up then and creating what you know, the Speak Up culture, the danger is exactly to your point. You know, there's, there's the next Nick Leeson, like a road trader, someone who isn't doing the right thing. You know, maybe management are going a little bit, you know. You know, there's some interesting investment decisions which are being made, or things which are being overlooked, which actually, you or people around the table say, You know what? No, this isn't the right thing to do. And so if you, if you as an organization, you don't create an environment which is psychologically safe, whatever your numbers are, then you're not going to get that diversity of thought. And from a risk perspective, you'll get a lot more risk too.
Kim Meninger
Yes, so you're just reinforcing the fact that this is not an individual problem either, right? I think there's a certain amount that we personally have control over and that we can do to invest in ourselves, but this is really a collective challenge that we need. And I think the, the fact that you're talking about it at a macro organizational level is so important.
Caroline Brewin
Hmm, yeah. And I mean, you know, from having experienced it a lot myself, you know, there's that I really feel that, like from an individual perspective, the, the stress of, of being terrified when you're going to work, or sitting in a meeting and thinking, please don't ask me a question, but it can be so you can get such terrible anxiety from it. And yeah, then the, you know, organizations, they need to understand there's a ripple effect of that. But from, from an individual point of view, really, if, if you allow it to take over, you know, there's, you can end up with that rumination piece, and, you know, that's when your, your self-worth is really plummeting, and, you know, and so there's, there's lots of different ways that we can kind of try and stop that and control that, but it's, it's something which is beyond that one, one item, it can just ripple out into your life in so many different ways.
Kim Meninger
And you have a book coming out on this, right?
Caroline Brewin
I do, yes. So the book is called Confident, and it's how to be confident using the secrets and superpowers of neuroscience. And it's all about all of these things, imposter syndrome. Looking at your critic, we dive into menopause, redundancy, motherhood, you know, some really fundamental things that I mean, it's, you know, there's the book can be for men too. We, obviously, we really dive into that from a female perspective. I really wanted to focus on that. It's a real passion of mine, and we have lots of different tools and techniques that you can use. And the other thing was, I really wanted to make it real. So I've interviewed 13 different people from all different walks of life. There are some celebrities in there, some kind of just extraordinary people in their kind of ordinary lives. And, you know, we look at, okay, well, what is confidence? What is confidence for you? What are the experiences? We've got a fighter pilot in there, someone who was captain of an international football team, rugby team, the first black woman on the PGA Tour in the UK. So people have had real challenges in terms of their journeys and the lessons and amazing things that they've learned on those how to overcome their issues with confidence.
Kim Meninger
I can't wait to read it. I am super excited, and I could talk to you all day. This is such a fascinating topic, and there's so much to it. So I really want to encourage anybody who's interested to get your book. Where else can they find you if they're interested in following you and your work?
Caroline Brewin
So I am at Brain Powered Coaching on all of the platforms. You can find me, Instagram, Facebook. LinkedIn is Caroline Brewin, so I think I'm the only one on there. So you can, you can find me on there, and yeah, so I'm pretty active on that. You can find all sorts of videos. And our website is Brain Powered Coaching and on there, you'll find lots of freebies and links to the book as well.
Kim Meninger
Excellent. Well, the links will be in the show notes for anyone listening. And thank you so much, Caroline, thank you for being here, and thank you for all the great work you're doing.
Caroline Brewin
Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you, Kim.