In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about what makes us decide whether or not to stay in our current roles or organizations. Trends like the Great Resignation have shown that employees are willing to leave their jobs if their needs aren’t met. So what can managers and companies do? My guest this week, Anne Donovan, a former HR leader turned entrepreneur, is on a mission to make the workplace better for everyone. And she does so by focusing on the critical issue of employee retention. Here she shares her research and what we can all do to make our workplaces better.
About My Guest
Anne Donovan is a Human Resources leader known for developing new programs and training, dramatically improving employee retention and leadership performance. Conducting extensive employee feedback research, she designs initiatives to address underlying issues across many industries. Executives value her talent for identifying core workforce needs and taking action to develop and drive projects. Anne’s successes include introducing retention programs, spearheading leadership development programs, and creating succession plans looking toward the future. Leading culture shifts and change management during highly stressful times are some of her specialties.
She’s worked in some of the most well-known luxury brands in hospitality and has created high-performing teams by leading with a people-first philosophy. She creates and facilitates Leadership Development workshops with high energy and an eye on drawing people in for maximized learning. The workshops she’s presented include “Coaching for Success”, “Civility”, and “Reducing Turnover and Increasing Retention”. Anne’s passion lies in helping people grow, both personally and professionally.
Anne has a talent for spotting potential in people. She is passionate about growing people and giving them support so they realize their full potential. She has a proven track record of her leadership. She is very good at influencing people and motivating them--a true leader.
Anne lives in Montana with her husband, Chip, and their two Wirehaired Pointing Griffons. When she is not working towards creating a better employee experience and a better workforce, she’s digging in her garden and renovating her backyard. You can also find her skiing down the slopes in Big Sky with Chip.
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Connect with Anne:
Website: https://donovanhrsolutions.com/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Anne. I'm so excited to meet you and have this conversation today, I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Anne Donovan
And thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. And I hope that your listeners get a lot out of our conversation today. And so a little bit about me is I am human resources consultant, I started Donovan HR Solutions, a mere eight months ago, after spending 12 years or 20 years behind the desk. I started in human resources as an HR admin, and then moved into employment manager and eventually on up the ranks to Director of Human Resources. And my focus now, after starting my own business, is working with organizations. And my mission in life is to make the workplace better for everyone. And I do that by working focusing on employee retention. And I fell in love with employee retention. About 20 years ago, when I was employed when I was promoted to employment manager for a large hotel in the Midwest, and I was opened up to the world of turnover, and digging into turnover whenever an employee leaves an organization and we have to replace that employee. And to me, I was just spinning my wheels, because it just seemed that it was a constant churn. And I started digging into more and more. I'm really asking myself, why do employees leave? And how can we get them to stay? And that's 20 years later, I am working with companies now to work with employees to get them to stay.
Kim Meninger
I can't wait to dive deeper into this, because I love what you said about making the workplace better for everyone. That is a big mission of mine as well. And we probably, you know, have some overlap, but also some complementary ways in which we think about that problem. And I'm also mindful of the fact that there's so much emphasis placed on recruitment, and not necessarily as much on the retention side once people are hired. So I'm curious what your experience shows, maybe research that you've done, or just anecdotally, why do people leave? What are the biggest reasons why people leave?
Anne Donovan
I have done a lot of research, but it's also working in high-turnover industries, such as retail and hospitality. And having to focus on that recruiting piece. We're short-staffed, we need to fill this position. Well, why don't we work on keeping them? And I started doing a lot of feedback sessions with employees just to get their feedback on what can what why they stay. Because it's organizations do a lot of exit interviews is that when an employee leaves, why are they leaving? Let's find that out. But that is the wrong time to do it. So it's I do what is now called stay interviews. And I have a it's about 10 to 12 questions, but it's really the what keeps you here. What do you like about your job, what motivates you. And it boils down to communication and transparency, apparently, within the company. Employees are vested in the company that they work for. And the more knowledge that they have about the company, keeps them around. Its employees want to know how their work is impacting the business. So communication is big piece, training and development. employees want training for their current job. They want to know how to do their job, right. And so they need that clear training in the beginning. And then they want development for career progression, whether they want to move up into leadership, or they want to stay and be a valued and valuable contributor. They want development. Humans have a natural tendency to learn and grow. And companies can do a world of service if they provide that development. They want pay and benefits. So pay competitively and fairly, offer great benefits so that they can take care of their families or their, their own lives. They want a great onboarding experience. So that's where the training starts. And if you just throw your employees out on the floor, and say here, have at it, good luck. Oh, yeah, maybe John will show you the ropes or something. employees aren't likely to stay around. But if you have a clear onboarding procedure, and a great welcoming process, employees are likely to stick around and then trust employees want trust from leadership they want to trust from there. coworkers. And building that trust within an organization lends a lot. Having a great mission vision values, helps, and not every company's culture is going to be the same. But employees want that alignment with the culture. So really talk about your company's culture, in the recruiting process. And that should weave through every single job posting job description, piece of marketing material that you have out there. And so I know that there's a lot that I just threw out there. But there's a lot that companies can do to retain their employees.
Kim Meninger
What's really interesting is that I'm looking at some of the things that you shared and thinking about communication and transparency. I'm thinking about training and development, I'm thinking about pay. Really, a lot of those are trust-based practices, right? Because if they feel like you're withholding information, if they feel like you're not treating them fairly, you paying them fairly, or not investing in them, then that creates a sense of not sure this is the right place for me. Right, what I would also, I'm also curious to your perspective, from a trust perspective on some of the behavioral aspects. And so, you know, the cliche that people leave managers, not jobs, so that you know, how your manager shows up as a big part of that. And so non-inclusive behaviors, sometimes toxic behaviors, some of the sort of day-to-day, stuff that people deal with, it just makes them feel either unwelcome, or, like they're treated disrespectfully, what is that part of trust? Would you say? Or is that something more of a standalone issue?
Anne Donovan
No, I agree with you completely that it does, it seems like all of these behaviors, and paying competitively and fairly and communicating and being transparent boil, it does all lead to trust. And that if the companies don't have the trust upfront, then that just automatically starts off on a bad foot, and can build that distrust throughout.
Kim Meninger
I also wonder because when you talk about something like, I'm just gonna use the training and development piece for a moment. And I see this on the, as an observer on the outside, you're much closer to it than I am. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. But it seems like we've reached a point in history where more and more people expect that you're only going to stay with a job for a certain amount of time, that is a step along the journey. And you know, maybe, maybe you camped out there for a couple of years, but you're not going to like lay down roots, right? And so I can imagine that if that's the expectation, that it would be less, it would be less attractive, or perhaps feel like less of a worthwhile investment on the part of the employer to do things like training and development, if they know they're just training and developing their people to take those skills with them to wherever it is that they go next, right? So it almost feels like oh, why bother? Whereas on the other hand, I can imagine an argument that says, Well, maybe if you train and develop them, they'll stay.
Anne Donovan
That's it exactly. The Gallup did a poll recently, the an 82% of millennials, which is now what the 30 to 40-year-olds that are in their mid-careers, they will stay for five years longer with the company, if the company does invest in their training and development. So that five years affords the company, more knowledge for that employee gives, it can lead to customer retention with employee. And so even five years, which, when you have high turnover, it seems like an eternity. But and nobody does stick around for 35-40 years to get that gold watch anymore. But the, even getting that five years, it can build a stronger organization, it can build a bigger customer pipeline and retain customers because the employee retention ultimately does affect your customers. And the longer that you have somebody in a job, the more they can benefit your customers. So go ahead and invest in that training and development. And then rather than sticking around for six months or a year, they'll stick around for five to seven years.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and that continuity is so important, like you said from customer experience from just a business continuity perspective, right of having people with institutional knowledge Oh, thinks content and being able to mentor other people. And so one thing I wonder about too, and this is my own personal bias, but you could tell me what your thoughts are going back to this idea that people leave managers, not companies, what are we getting wrong about developing managers? Or where's the opportunity to better develop managers so that people do feel more connection to their roles and their companies, they do feel a greater sense of trust? You know, what, what, where's the disconnect there?
Anne Donovan
It requires a huge mindset shift. And we need to, we need to change our thinking in that employees are more than numbers. And they're more than just go in, make your widgets, clock out at the end of the day and go home. And in building that trust, managers do need to realize that their employees are people first. So starting to manage to start to build that trust with a employees have one on one feedback, open the lines of communication. And I'm not one for small talk, but gotta learn that, yes, having small talk and getting to know, employees on a more personal level, builds a deeper connection. And companies are, they're starting to understand all of that, that people that their employees are people. And so I just think that it takes a great mindset shift, that we're more than just numbers.
Kim Meninger
And I also think about this in terms of people getting promoted to people management who don't necessarily want to be there in the first place, it feels like the fastest way to grow, make more money, get higher status, whatever the case may be. But the actual work involved in developing people, giving them that kind of feedback, taking care of them isn't necessarily what they want to be doing. And so that mismatch has lots of ripple effects.
Anne Donovan
And it happens so often.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, it feels like, to me, I. And, you know, it's been, it's been a while since I've worked inside of an organization, but I work with organizations a lot. And I feel like the act of promoting your superstars to managers is probably not the way to get to where you want to go. I think a solid B player, who's somebody who really likes mentoring others, who really wants to help the team grow, makes a much better manager than the A player who's really independently motivated and just wants to produce and, and so I wonder, when you're talking with organizations, or even just within your, your own career, I'm talking with managers within your companies. Do you think there's any shift happening in terms of how people get evaluated for people manager roles, or how those decisions get made?
Anne Donovan
There's a shift, and it's starting to get momentum, because we, I think that we're finally learning that not everybody has to be a manager. And not everybody's going to excel as a manager. But for so long, it just seemed like that was the career progression. If you want to succeed, if you want to get a promotion, you want to get a raise, you have to becoming a leader, you need to go into management. And we just need to be okay with that. It's not the career path for everybody. And so companies now are understanding that having more frequent one on one conversations, stead of your annual performance review and what happened the past year, and where do you think feel like your career is going but more frequent, more informal, one on one conversations and do true career pathing? Because like you said, Kim, not everybody is going to be a great manager. You take your awesome B player, who was fantastic with people, that's who you promoted to management. And then you take that superstar who can just produce, produce, produce, and you find some other path for them to succeed and get promoted, so that you can keep them around?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think that's fairly new, at least from, from my experience to have promotion tracks that don't include managing people. I think that was sort of the, the bargain is okay. I'll deal with managing people if it means that I can advance my career, when there's no other alternative. But to acknowledge that people still want to grow, people still kind of add increasing value without having direct reports.
Anne Donovan
So not every sales manager or superstar salesperson is going to be a superstar sales manager, it is such completely different skill sets. And we really need to play to each other's strengths. So why put that round peg in a square hole? If that's not where they're going to excel? Really play to people's strengths.
Kim Meninger
What do you see as different today, now that we're in this sort of new world post kind of post? You know, I feel like the pandemic sort of revealed all the cracks in the foundation and brought to light a lot of issues that we weren't necessarily motivated to pay attention to in the past is, is there a meaningful difference in your mind between sort of 2019 2020, early 2020, and now how we think about things today?
Anne Donovan
There's definitely been a shift. And I don't think I can verbalize it. It's, I think about it all the time, it's I think, that employees are finding their voice, and are being okay with, say, vocalizing their needs. Whereas before it was, my boss told me I have to show up to the office, I'm going to be there, from eight to five, I'm going to be chained to my desk, I'm going to produce, produce, produce, whereas now I feel that there's a lot more flexibility. And organizations are realizing that people are people. And we all have lives outside of the office. I remember my very first corporate job, I was told to check all my baggage at the door. And so it was put on a stoic face and don't let any emotions but pure joy come through because I was working in hospitality. But we do have lives outside of the work. And if I have to take my, if my dog breaks her leg, then I'm going to peace out of work and go take care of my dog. But when I'm at work, I'm going to be 100% focused. And so I think there has been a shift towards that flexibility. And that we really do need to change because running a business isn't like it wasn't 2019. And people aren't what they were in 2019.
Kim Meninger
So you're making me think too about, especially if, if a company really is driven to retain its employees, then that suggests, although I'm sure it differs from company to company and manager to manager, but it suggests that they would want to hear from their employees what they need, or where their concerns lie, or you know, to give them a bigger voice. But I think a lot of people are still afraid that if they speak up, there will be some backlash to that they will be seen as not cooperative or team players, there will be some kind of penalty to their career advancement, it's going to undermine relationships. And so there are a lot of people right now who are suffering in silence that are probably sort of silently looking for a new job, because they've determined that this isn't the right place for them without realizing that if they spoke up, they might actually be able to get what they're looking for, or at least get more than they think they can. And so I'm curious if you have advice for people who are feeling like, you know what, I think it's time for me to leave because they're making assumptions about what is or is not possible within the environment that they're in.
Anne Donovan
And I think that that happens so often because employees are there hasn't been a culture of trust and transparency. And so employees are making up third, the these narratives in their head without talking things through and they may be afraid to speak up, they may be afraid of possible repercussions. And so my advice is set that meeting with your manager and, but be prepared for an open dialogue. Take notes. I know that sounds goofy. I'm walking into a meeting with my manager and I have my bullet points but when if you feel a heightened state of anxiety because of what you think the repercussions are going to be taken notes go in with your bullet points about the different topics you want to talk about. And I bet the majority people who take that meeting with their manager will be surprised. Because their, their manager doesn't know that they have all of this other stuff going on inside their head, or outside of work. And I bet that they're in the sense of retaining employees, managers want to know what's going on, they want to know how they can work with employees to make work a little bit better. So it's just dig down deep, put together roleplay with somebody if you want to. But just put that meeting on your managers calendar. I bet you're gonna be surprised.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I'm really glad to hear you say that. Because I think that one of the things that I often say, raise your mitt and sure can't read your mind. And as long as people are showing up, and pleasantly getting your work done on time, there's no reason for your manager to come to you and say, Is there anything else I could be doing to make you great, you know, it's, it's not realistic to come in and volunteer that there is no reason to believe that there is a problem. And so, I know, again, that there's a lot of fear around it. But my philosophy is always to that, whatever the outcome of that meeting is data, right? Either you're pleasantly surprised, like you said, and you get at least some of what you're looking for. Or you're told very definitively that that isn't possible. And then it becomes information on which you get to make an informed decision about what works better for you, right? So at least if you do decide to leave, you feel like you did everything you can to make this work. And now you have evidence that this isn't the right place for you.
Anne Donovan
And you also know that you can have those types of conversations. Because if you do decide to resign, you go to another company. And whoa, you're probably going to run into similar situations there. So now could be, now you know, you can open up that door, you can have those conversations, and it's not as scary as a, I guarantee you, your manager probably won't kick you in the shins by having that conversation.
Kim Meninger
Right, exactly. And if they do, then they're a terrible manager, right?
Anne Donovan
There's your data.
Kim Meninger
But I really liked that too, because the only common denominator across your career is you. And so a lot of if you're finding that you're repeating the same patterns, or you're noticing similarities in experience across different jobs is because you're bringing you to each one of these situations. And so one of the things I think about a lot too, is that if you've already decided, I'm just checked out and I'm not going to stay here for very long, all the more reason to have the conversation because what have you got to lose. And in that case, what it becomes as practice for self-advocacy, it becomes so and you know, in the best of worlds, like you said, Maybe you find out oh, actually, I had no idea this was possible, I'm gonna rethink my whole strategy, or I'm gonna get more comfortable with advocating for myself. So when I do end up in the right place, I don't let it get to this point going forward.
Anne Donovan
Exactly. And self-advocacy is, I'm a huge fan of and growing up in the corporate world have had to do it because I have had some incredible cheerleaders in my back with, who got my back, and some incredible mentors. But there are some companies that if I didn't speak up, or I didn't ask for what I needed, then I wasn't going to give what I needed, and I wasn't able to do my job. And so building that skill set to be a self-advocate is hard. But, but it is possible.
Kim Meninger
And so, yeah, it's worthwhile too right? And I think when you talk about this idea of retention, I am big, I have a big bias towards empower, empowerment. And so I think that there is a responsibility within all organizations to focus on retention for all the reasons that we talked about. I think managers should be more self-aware. I think companies should be investing in leadership and culture and all of the things that make people want to stay. But I also believe that each one of us has a personal responsibility to ask for what we need to you know, sort of fight for what we believe in to take that stand when it's important to us because that's going to contribute to retention as well, you can't put all of the responsibility on someone else you have to be sorry for your own career. As much as there is a shift in terms of, you know how long people stay within companies, it's a pain is not fun to be on, on a new job search every one to two years, it's, it's not something that people look forward to. And so that comes with cost to the individual as well. It's not just cost to the employer. And so there's, there's benefit to us to finding a place where we can stay for a while and, you know, invest in that kind of growth and development. But it's incumbent upon us to let our managers and other leaders know what that needs to look like, in order for us to stay there.
Anne Donovan
Exactly. So I liked that you put, put it back on the personal responsibility. Because we are responsible for our own actions, we're responsible for the way that we take in our world. And we have, we only have control over ourselves. And so, yes, I like that you put it back to personal responsibility.
Kim Meninger
Thank you. And I say that without, and I'm mindful of the fact that it may sometimes come across as judgmental or critical. But really, I speak as someone who has a tremendous amount of anxiety on a regular basis. So I know for me, I always want to feel in control. I just never want to feel like a victim. And I am always thinking about it from the perspective of like, how can we eliminate victimhood in these dynamics recognize the reality is that we are up against and take matters into our own hands whenever we can. And so it's really about that empowerment piece. I can't control what my manager does, but I can control what conversation I bring to that relationship.
Anne Donovan
And, I can control how I react to that discussion and how I react to the situation.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. Exactly. So tell us a little bit more about your transition. What made you decide after 20 years that you wanted to go out on your own?
Anne Donovan
I really do want to change the world. Well, the, my mission is to make the workplace for better for everybody. And I can if I'm working for one company, at in their people in cultural department, then I'm impacting that one organization. But as a consultant, or speaker, I can go out and I can impact a much larger audience. And I can take my message out to that many more people. And I'm really not the best with eight-to-five schedules. I'm not the best with Monday through Friday. So I wake up very early in the morning, and I knock out a bunch of work. And then I take a break, and then I knock out a bunch of work in the evening. So I'm working your traditional schedule is not for me, and for me to have the flexibility that we're I'm most productive, and I'm the best, then I decided to branch out on my own. And I'll tell you what, it's not easy. But it's been a blast.
Kim Meninger
Congratulations on taking such a big step. I think that's really a great example of facing your fears, which I'm always advocating for.
Anne Donovan
What am I afraid of today? Chocolate?
Kim Meninger
Yes, absolutely. And, and it's interesting, because, you know, just sort of thinking about this bigger holistic conversation that we're having. I think it's wonderful that you are motivated to have a bigger impact. And, you know, sort of spread yourself around to other parts, not just one company, but others. What I think is a shame is that you can't have that kind of scheduling flexibility or you are less likely to get it right because I think that's a big part of this conversation too. Why not let people work when they have the most energy Why not let people be? I understand that there are certain times when you have to be available because your customers are going to call in at a certain time or rate you have meetings with people that are scheduled at a certain time but generally speaking, to have the kind of choice on where and when you work so that you can be at your peak when you are contributing and it just feels like although the pandemic sort of proved that we're capable of doing this, we're starting to see now some backsliding with companies getting really strict and really sort of, you know, firm about saying, Nope, I want people back in the office, we want this to look the way it used to. And I worry that the lessons that we've learned, the progress that we've made over the last few years are going to erode. If we don't hold on to them.
Anne Donovan
I see the backside too. But I also see, it's not as great as, as a backslide as it could be. So people are retaining some of their flexibility. The gig economy is larger than ever and is growing. It's I see it in professional services, I see it not just with Uber drivers, and DoorDash, but professional services, fractional HR, fractional accounting, things like that. So we are seeing more and more. The only word that's coming to mind is demand to return to office. But I think that we'll find a happy medium, because some people do thrive in their office setting. And they need that whereas others need the sanctity of working from home, or coffee shop or wherever they work from because that's where they're most productive. So I think that, with all of this, everything will shake out, and we'll find the happy medium for everybody. So people can be more satisfied in their jobs, and more productive for the company.
Kim Meninger
I hope so. And I think, you know, I'm, I'm sort of always the optimist. I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't believe there was nothing anybody could do what they did.
Anne Donovan
Yeah, so it is good to hear that. I think, you know, with any kind of progress, there's always steps forward and steps back. And so we will find an equilibrium, hopefully, at some point. Anything else that is important to bring to this conversation, I think you've shared so many great insights. And I love sort of a focus on retention in particular, and what we can all be doing to contributes bit to that sort of, I would say initiative.
Kim Meninger
I could talk about this all day long. So if I do have, I think that we've covered a great amount that I think your listeners will take some nuggets from. And so I don't have any further insight into the conversation now, or else it would just go on and on and on. Well, where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work?
Anne Donovan
So on my website at DonovanHRsolutions.com. And on LinkedIn, feel free to connect with me. And I'll share some insights on there.
Kim Meninger
So much and best of luck to you. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. And I hope for all of our sake.
Anne Donovan
Well, Kim, thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I had a blast. So thank you.