In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about what my guest this week, Melody Wilding, calls sensitive strivers. The term sensitive strivers refers to those of us who think and feel more deeply than others while also putting a lot of pressure on ourselves to set goals and succeed. This combination of traits tends to leave us more susceptible to self-doubt and impostor syndrome. Here we talk about strategies to help you set clearer boundaries, stop the constant worrying and overthinking, and better manage perfectionism so that you can achieve success on your own terms.
About My Guest
Melody’s work has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Oprah Magazine, NBC News, and dozens of other high-profile publications.
Recently named one of Business Insider’s “Most Innovative Coaches,” Melody’s client list includes hundreds of CEOs, executives, and top-performers at the world’s most successful companies, including Google, Facebook, IBM, Netflix, and more.
Her recent speaking engagements include Amazon, Stanford University Graduate School of Business, Walmart, Conde Nast, Rutgers University, Adweek, and many other distinguished organizations.
Melody is a licensed social worker with a Masters degree from Columbia University, and a former researcher at Rutgers University. She teaches Human Behavior at Hunter College and is a contributor to Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Fast Company, and Business Insider.
Her best-selling book, Trust Yourself: Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions into Success at Work (Chronicle Books) debuted as a #1 New Release in multiple Amazon categories and was selected by Apple Books as a “Best Book of the Month” for May 2021.
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Websites: www.melodywilding.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
So welcome back. Melody, it is so exciting to see you again. I think it's been a couple of years now. Gosh, it's hard to be time goes by so fast. But I'm excited to continue our conversation. And before we do, I would love to invite you to just tell us a little bit more about you.
Melody Wilding
Well, I'm thrilled to be here again. And I feel like since the pandemic time is a very strange concept. I don't know sometimes when it's been a few months that's passed or a few years. It's surprised me every time. So thank you for having me back. Kim. I'm really happy to be here. And I am melody wilding. I am an executive coach. I'm a licensed social worker. And my specialty is really working with people who I call sensitive strivers. So people that are highly sensitive, they think and feel everything more deeply. But they're also high achievers, they put a lot of pressure on themselves to succeed and set a lot of goals for themselves are very driven. And those two qualities when they come together can make you more susceptible to self-doubt and impostor syndrome.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love the way you describe that. Because I think that probably resonates with the vast majority of people who are listening to this podcast. And I know you wrote a book recently. And I think that was right around the time that you and I spoke the first time and I'm curious, has anything sort of changed for you and how you're thinking about this, the challenges that we're talking about any, any new developments since the book came out any news, any surprises, any reactions that, you know, you've sort of incorporated into your thinking?
Melody Wilding
It's so interesting, the book just celebrated two years that it's been now it's second birthday, which is very exciting. And, you know, I've learned a few things. First, I'll share some of the key lessons that I think keep coming up again and again. And one of those is that you teach people how to treat you. And, you know, people will take cues from how you treat yourself. So if you are always questioning the value you bring to the table, you're never, you know, sticking to your boundaries, you're always allowing people to book over timeslots, you have people take cues from that, right? And so I think that is a big one. Another one that stands out to me, and this is a lesson I learned again and again and, again, is that confidence is a byproduct of taking action. It's so easy to convince yourself that I just need to feel ready. Just need to take a few more courses, get a little more practice under my belt. And sure all of those things are good, but you will never feel 100% Ready, and you have to act anyway. Because that is what gives you the feeling of confidence. So Courage comes first, Confidence comes second, and then competence comes third.
Kim Meninger
I'm so glad you said that because you're absolutely right. I often joke when was the last time you got out of bed one day and said Okay, finally ready to do that scary thing I've been putting just doesn't happen that way. The confidence follows the action. So that's such a great point. And I really want to go back to this idea of teaching people how to treat you because I think this is such a tough one for so many of us, myself included when it comes to boundary setting. In theory, it sounds very reasonable. In practice, it feels almost depending on the relationship depending on the situation. Like you're being difficult in some way. I think for so many women, especially women who are feeling like they want to be seen as team players, they want to be seen as adding value the idea of saying no to someone or the idea of saying no to something feels antithetical to how they think and how they behave. And so I'm curious if we could spend some time talking a little bit more about boundaries, why they're so hard to set. And is Do we just need to accept that it's going to be hard and do it anyway? Or are there ways that we can make it easier?
Melody Wilding
A little bit of both and there? So to your point about socialization, yes, you know, women we are brought up from a young age being told, no play nice that you need to be likable and agreeable in order to succeed. And that conditioning follows us over into our careers. And then, of course, you layer on more of this collaborative, team-oriented culture, which is wonderful. But when all of these things come together, our best intentions can then be taken to an extreme and start to hurt us. And I was speaking to a women's ERG yesterday, and so many of them were saying, you know, I feel like I'm in this double bind that I want to advance. But I feel like I have to do three different jobs I have to take on and say yes. And really do another job before I get promoted to it, and it's this, it's this catch-22. So I think having struggles around boundaries is so common. Also, we're never taught how to do it. We're not really taught how to say, No, we're taught from a very young age set, say yes to every opportunity that comes your way. Right, seize the moment. And again, all of that is great. But you get to a certain point in your career, where, as the saying goes, what got you here is not going to get you there.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, too. And I think there's a almost a difference between when you set a boundary early in a relationship. And so I talk with people about this all the time when they're starting a new job, because there's a clean slate, right, and nobody knows you yet. You can, you can set those expectations early, and people will be more likely to go along with them, versus trying to redefine a boundary later, once people have gotten used to being able to email you at all hours of the day and night and get an immediate response. Right. So So are there ways that we can renegotiate the terms of some of these relationships once we realize this isn't working for me?
Melody Wilding
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's never too late to ask for a do-over or reset. And one of my favorite strategies to do that is creating a me manual. So creating a guide to you as a professional. And that includes things about the best ways to communicate with you, your working hours, how you learn best how you like to receive feedback best. And it's really helpful for defining some of those expectations, like you were saying. And I think with boundaries, we need to reframe it from this is a purely selfish thing I'm doing for myself, to my boundary can actually serve other people. Because when there is clarity, when there is more certainty, everyone benefits. So if someone has more certainty about, oh, here's how I can get the best out of Kim. Or if I give her feedback in this way, I know she's going to receive it best. That's good for everyone involved. And from your own, for your own benefit. I see time and time again, that when people fill out this manual, and it doesn't have to be, you know, extravagant, this can be a Google Doc, it can be a simple slide deck, you don't have to, you know, go perfectionistic with it. But it never fails that when people share it with their boss or their coworkers, that those other people will say, This is great can, can we use this for the rest of the team? And it's, it's wonderful, because then it takes also some of the second-guessing out of other people's behavior. If someone is short with you, I know. For me, when someone is very concise in their communication, I usually read into that and think, Oh, they're angry with me, I did something wrong. But if you know, the other person is more of just a curt communicator, then it takes some of that personalization out of it.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I am always talking about this in terms of giving people the answers to the test, right? Because if we don't have the information, we will make it up. And oftentimes, we make it up in ways that are not favorable to ourselves, or to the other person, just as you're describing my assumption is not my first assumption is never Oh, they have a different communication style than I do, right? It's always, wow, that person is rude, or oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? So, so anything that we can do to create that kind of clarity and transparency around each other, and how we interact together is such a great way to alleviate some of the stress that comes into our work. And I love what you're saying too, about how my setting a boundary can actually serve you. And I think about this as an opportunity for teams as well because it might feel funny, if I'm the only one who's now coming forward and saying, Okay, I have new boundaries that I want to make you all aware of, even though we would never say the most terms. If we, if we can recognize that every single one of us struggles with this, then there's an opportunity for us to collectively come together, whether it's in the form of the document that you just said, which sort of makes it more of a process and less of an emotional activity, or to even just kind of say hey, you know what, what would what kinds of, you know, whether you use the word boundaries or not, would make it easier for you to do your job and then we can all share. And now if I know you know what calling you after 5 pm is just not gonna work because you have kids that you're taking care of, I'm not going to do that and put myself in a position of getting a frustrated reaction from you or interfering with your evening routine. So I just love what you're saying about making it easier for everybody to understand each other and, and show up in support of each other.
Melody Wilding
Absolutely, yeah. And to your point about, you know, doing this at any time, I like to say, to look for natural transition points. So you might say, you know, as we look toward the beginning of this next quarter, something I'm focusing on is streamlining our communication. In an effort to help with that, I would like to make a simple request for XYZ, or in an effort to help with that I've prepared this document that's going to help us work together in the best way possible. So whenever you can frame your boundary in terms of what's in it for the other person, what's in it for me classic, then it's you increase your chances that it's going to be received better.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And one thing I'm curious about from your perspective, too, and this may segue us into another segment of this conversation that I'm interested in, but we get so attached to other people's responses. And let's just imagine that there is somebody who's just not happy about a boundary that we set, they just aren't happy about it. How do we get to a place where we take that less personally, perhaps reframe it as more so information about them not information about us? Because I think so much of what we're talking about, too, is a function of how you described our early socialization. And this needs to just make everyone happy. We just want people to like us, we want to please everybody around us. And if, in our quest to set these boundaries, we bump up across the earth, we bump into somebody who's really resistant. What do we do with that?
Melody Wilding
It's very common, and it's normal. I think that is a key mindset shift is to realize that's expected. Because when you start setting boundaries, especially if you've been someone who's overly accommodating, people are used to you responding in that manner. And when you start changing your behavior, You're upsetting the applecart a little bit, You're upsetting the equilibrium of the social system, and it's going to try to bring itself back into balance. And so that's very common, you know, it's just like, if you start going to the gym all the time or something and people in your life, start criticizing you for that, or you start working on your personal development, and people start criticizing you for that it's, it's very similar here. So the status quo will always try to draw you back to center. So I think the first thing is to expect it that the pushback is normal, be ready for it. And this is where assertiveness comes in, that when you receive that negative response, you need to stand your ground and you need to reiterate your perspective, you may need to say that's not possible, I'm not able to do that. Or thank you again, for thinking of me, I can't participate this time, you need to reiterate that you might also say I hear this is important. And what I'm asking is important to me too. So I ask that you respect my request on this. standing your ground, very important. I think another tool that is very underestimated is silence. And that's because as, as people-pleasers you know, when we struggle with impostor syndrome, we feel a bit insecure. And so we may over-explain our boundary or over-justify it, which is a mistake because it opens us up to objection handling. Someone can poke holes and say, Oh, well, we can we can change things around. So you can do XYZ. Or we throw ourselves under the bus, we set a boundary, and then we undermine it by saying, you know, if you really don't have time, or this is really too much of a request, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. Right? And so deliver your boundary and be quiet. And if someone else is getting worked up in the face of your boundary, silence is a really great way to take some of the energy and the intensity out of that reaction. It's the same psychology you know, if you have children, it's why you don't respond to a temper tantrum. It's the same sort of psychology working there.
Kim Meninger
That's a great tip and it's certainly one that I think we can practice because it is hard in the moment we get triggered and pending on our fight or flight response, we, we might have trouble staying disciplined enough to stay quiet or to your point, if you're a people pleaser, you might just jump right in. But I think that's a really great strategy. And the good news and the bad news about boundaries is that they show up or have the potential to show up in every aspect of our lives. And so we can practice these outside of the workplace too. And that might make it feel a little bit more comfortable. If you're struggling with setting a boundary with your boss, maybe you'd practice setting a boundary with your friends first.
Melody Wilding
Absolutely start small build your confidence, right? And in less high stakes situation, I always say the first time you practice the skill should not be when you enter the boardroom, or you enter that high stakes situation, you want to again, you want to go back to building taking action is what will build your confidence, you know that you can do this, you know that you'll be okay, and you won't die. And that's important. That's important to build trust in yourself. And, Kim, if I may, you mentioned, you know, boundaries show up everywhere. And I think one way that we don't talk about boundaries enough, are internal boundaries. So we talk a lot about external boundaries, you know, how we protect our time and our energy and our physical space. But what we don't talk about and for most of us with impostor syndrome is equally as important is the mental and emotional limits. How much space? Do we allow someone's comment or feedback to take up in our brain? How long do we allow ourselves to think about work after hours? And those are? I think they're much harder because they're intangible, right?
Kim Meninger
I'm so glad you brought that up. Because I was thinking about that, too, especially because of the sensitive part of the sensitive striver. Right? So I get this question a lot. And it's not easy. There's no simple solution to this unless you have it, in which case, please share. But I think like you're saying, it's one thing to say I'm not going to check my email after 6 pm. And I can keep my phone in the other room and is difficult as it may be sometimes to resist the temptation, for the most part, I can figure that out. But how do I shut my brain off? And that's what people tend to struggle with is, I'm not trying to I don't want to do that. I'd love to set a boundary around my rumination and all my constant worrying, but I don't know how. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are in terms of entry-level kinds of strategies for that, because I know there's, there's a whole spectrum of solutions that we might take advantage of, but are there anything, starter kinds of strategies that you would recommend?
Melody Wilding
Well, yeah, to your point, I wish there was an easy button. And that would make life a whole lot easier. But yeah, in terms of starter strategies, I think it's important to recognize that our brains are problem-solving machines. So if there is a question or an open loop in our head, our mind is just going to turn over and over and over again, trying to solve it. And so getting those thoughts and those concerns out of your head, and putting them somewhere else is really key. Whether a lot of my clients have had success with creating worry time where they you know, set aside 20 minutes a week, and that is their compartmentalize time to worry. If anything comes up during the rest of the week, it's sort of a mental note, or literally writing it down that I'll address this, I'll tackle this during my worry time. And lo and behold, most things just seem to resolve themselves and not, not be a big deal. So that's a useful one. With a, with a lot of people, I find that also, parsing out feedback can be really helpful. So writing down exactly what was said, what was someone's exact words, or phrasing? What is everything that is wrong with the feedback, all their biases and blind spots and things they got wrong and things you're angry at? Than what is right, or might be right with the feedback? Is there a nugget that's useful in there? And sometimes by doing this, you realize there's nothing that's really useful, and that's really good to know, too. And then also, what are you going to do about it afterwards? So what action do you take now? Do you walk around the block to disconnect? Do you apologize or make some sort of a change to your workflow? You It could be anything. But the point here is to get those things out of your head. So they're not rattling around in your brains not trying to close the loop and solve all of those questions.
Kim Meninger
I wrote down what you said about it being a problem-solving. Just call it an engine or no. Machine. Yes, because that is exactly how I think about it. I often think it just as someone who has had a lifelong anxiety disorder and is very prone to rumination and catastrophizing, I have learned to reframe what's happening as my brain trying to do me a favor, right, my brain is trying to help me, it doesn't want me to experience this kind of pain again. So it's trying to solve, like you said, solve this problem so that we can prevent this from ever happening. I think just knowing that just naming it that is so powerful, because it allows you to recognize what's happening to see the value of it, as you know, sort of warped as that might sound. And then to your point to be able to follow that up with an action step that essentially tells your brain okay, this is accounted for lesson learned, we can move on. And so even something as simple as you talked about the worry time, sometimes my brain will just, it thinks it's doing me a favor by keeping something that I need to do in short-term memory thinking, like, I'm gonna forget if I don't keep doing this. So if I just put it on my calendar of this is what I'm going to do. It's like, oh, okay, great, you've got it covered. I don't need to worry about it anymore. So even though some of the action steps that we may be talking about feel like, you know, who has time for that, or that sounds so cliche, they really do work it really there is a reason why getting it out of your head, putting it down, is an effective strategy.
Melody Wilding
Well, I love what you said about reframing the purpose because that gives us more compassion for what's happening, too. Because what's worse is when you it's called shooting the second arrow where you judge yourself, for the thing you're doing, you make yourself worse, you intensify your pain and your suffering around it by beating yourself up for, for ruminating. For example, why do I always do this? Why can't I get over this other people don't have this problem. And that makes it so much worse, rather than saying, This is my brain trying to keep me safe and help me it totally changes the tone.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes, it's been a work in progress for me over the course of my adult life, but it really does make a difference. I'm curious too, as we're talking about some of the, the overthinking some of the, the worrying, if we can pull in the achievement piece of what we're talking about because there's a difference between wanting to set high standards for yourself and wanting to achieve. And perfectionism and feeling like nothing you do is ever good and good enough. And I think achievers sometimes struggle to differentiate between those two things. And I think there's, you know, certainly multiple factors that contribute to this, we have a tendency to compare ourselves to others and think I'm not doing as much as that person's doing or, you know, the, the proverbial ladder, right, like, I should be further along that ladder at this stage of my career. And so I must be doing it wrong. And, and even the things that we are doing well, we're constantly criticizing. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are on how do we maintain the benefits of being an achiever of really liking the challenge and wanting to continue to contribute in positive ways, while tempering some of the negative energy and the ways in which we get in our own way in the course of trying to reach those goals?
Melody Wilding
Yeah, and I want to underscore the fact that I think the theme that's coming out of this conversation is that any strength taken to an extreme can become a hindrance, right? And so what I think both you and I are advocating for is, is balance here that we don't want to lose these qualities, but we have to make sure that we're not using them in excess to the point where they hurt us, or other people around us even. So when it comes to achievement, you were mentioning, what I would call a lot of push motivation. I should do something I have to do this. It's really doing something out of a sense of obligation, because you want to avoid rejection or ridicule or judgment from somebody else. And so it's all of those should-have to ought-to. It's all of that sort of where's your intention coming from? Now compare that to pull motivation. So that's something you feel naturally pull to. Yes, it may be scary or daunting, but there's excitement about it. And you feel like my gut is telling me to move towards this thing, even though I know it might be difficult. So it feels more like an organic, pure motivation. And so I think, really taking stock for yourself, of how much of your, your life and your time is really now spent in that push motivation, how much of your achievement is motivated by that, versus how much is motivated by more of a pull?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and that's a really important, I would say, a really important thing that we don't spend a lot of time thinking about, because so much of how we show up is a function of our internal programming, you know, maybe we had parents who told us, You need to work hard, and, you know, whatever the, the early messages are, or again, that social comparison, the societal influences of everybody wants to get ahead. And so we just are on a path that we didn't choose, thinking that we need to get as far along that as possible. And, and so I wonder if I'm kind of thinking out loud here. But I'm just there are some people who may be able to, in the context of what they're doing now, flip, from a push to a pole motivation, have to maybe really just kind of think about my core values and why I want what I'm doing and use that as a motivation. But then there are other people who just aren't in the right place. And maybe they're just coming to realize that I've been going down this route, I've been following someone else's vision of success. I've been doing this because I thought this was what I should be doing. But I really don't want to, do you have a thoughts on how to distinguish between those two? Because I think sometimes we reach a point where we think, Okay, I just need to escape from the situation that I'm in or over, commit to the wrong path. Because we make assumptions about what is or is not possible. And so sorting out, you know, how much of what of the stress or the, the pain that we're feeling right now, it is a function of something that is manageable, or you know, that we can change within the current situation? And how much of it is just we need to remove ourselves from this situation?
Melody Wilding
Yeah, this is such a good question. That's such a big no, no, it's, it's, it's a great one. And the first thing that comes to mind for me, is you take yourself everywhere. So you need to make sure that I always like to ask, do you feel you have done your best addressing the situation? Have you done what is within your power to change, and still not seeing results? Because sometimes, we do have to take ownership for how we, how we may be complicit in creating certain conditions that we don't like, like I said, you teach people how to treat you. So if you are not being assertive, you're not speaking up about your needs, you're not sharing your wins and advocating for yourself. Sure, you may not feel like you're valued, or you're in the right place. But if you have done those things, and you're still not seeing results, then it's probably time to make a change. But you want to make sure that you have tackled some of those internal causes, because that may just follow you into the next role. And so you want to make sure you're running towards something and not necessarily always just running away and trying to escape a situation.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I could not agree with you more, I think that it's probably worthwhile to reflect on multiple experiences over time and see any patterns or themes that emerge, because it is likely that if you're struggling with boundaries in one role, you probably struggled with them in another role. And if you haven't gotten that to a place that works for you, you're going to take that with you wherever you go next. And, and I tend to think of it too, as once you come to that place of realization, if you do conclude where I am today is just not the right place for me and I want to take a next step forward, what better time than to use where you are today to address some of those challenges and get that work done? Because what have you got to lose? Right? You already decided I'm not going to stay here you're in a place where at least it's familiar. It should try to go someplace new and do the work at the same time is going to create a lot more stress. That's an overwhelmed. So take advantage of the time where you are to do that work and prepare yourself.
Melody Wilding
So if you have it with you, you go exactly, yeah. And what I see often happen is that we get caught in analysis, paralysis and overthinking. So I can't tell you how many times people will say, I've done all of the personality quiz quizzes, I've done all of the, what career should you be in quizzes, and I don't feel like I'm any closer to having clarity on what I should do next. And that's because self-reflection only goes so far, there comes a point where you have to make a hypothesis about, I may be interested in this new industry, and you have to get out there and test it, and get actual data and see how it feels. And so I would say, if you feel like you have that inkling or that nudge, make a hypothesis, take a guess, at what you think you might enjoy, or the type of environment you want to be in and get that data. Can you do informational interviews with people? Can you take on a side project or work with a different team? For example, what can you do to get that information to prove or disprove and continue moving forward?
Kim Meninger
And what I love about framing it as a hypothesis is that it's naturally more of an experiment. And it's not this huge make-or-break life decision, which is often what we tell ourselves when we're trying to evaluate a change. And so there's so much emotional pressure baked into that analysis, that kind of a decision-making process. Whereas if you think of it as, like, you said, like, Oh, I'm just going to explore this question, or I'm gonna come from a place of curiosity, I'm not gonna get attached to the outcome. I'm just gonna see what happens, collect the data, and then make a decision. It's, it's a different experience for us. Exactly. Yeah. And especially again, for those of us who over-rethink everything. Is there anything else that you think about all the time that we haven't covered?
Melody Wilding
Well, when we were talking about boundaries, there's one technique I wanted to share there that is very helpful, it straddles that line of being a team player, but setting limits. And it's called the positive note. And basically, that means I'm not able to help you with your initial requests. But here's what I can do for you. So you're, you're seeing the person you're hearing them, but you're offering an alternative that works better for you, you're still being collaborative and helpful, but within your own limits. So you might say, you know, we can't get an entire report to you by the state, but we can have a first draft of half of it. Or I can get everything to you by Friday, but Wednesday should be doable. And so negotiating, I think, is a skill that comes in with boundaries. And I offer that, because it's very helpful, it comes in very handy.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love that. And I was thinking, as you were seeing that I was thinking too about when it comes to power differentials, this can be a lot harder. So it's perhaps even though it may be difficult, it's probably easier for me to set that boundary with my peer than it is with my boss. And I think that that kind of strategy where you come to your manager, and you say, almost from a consultative standpoint, right. And I think one of the things that especially as women we do is we think, if the resources aren't available, whether that's time, whatever the case may be, that it's a personal failure on my part that this deadline can't be met, as opposed to it being a business problem that we just don't have sufficient resources to solve. And so to be able to go to your manager and say, it's not realistic for us to achieve x by the date that we've established with the resources that we've been given, however, here are two possibilities for how we might do some of it. Right. And so I think psychologically, it shows that you're still being cooperative, and you still are trying to get to a solution. And you also are showing that you have the expertise or the strategic thinking, to evaluate different possibilities that it's not, you know, sort of a, an apologetic or panicked. No. It's a thoughtful response.
Melody Wilding
Absolutely. You nailed it. I can't tell you how many times women especially will come to me and say, you know, I've, I'm not getting ahead. I'm not advancing because I've been told, I don't know how to prioritize, or I was told that they can't give me more responsibility because there's already too much on my plate. And so your point about saying no, when done in the right way can actually exemplify your leadership skills. It shows people you know how to strategize, problem solve. You have conflict-resolution skills. As you can communicate effectively. So again, I think changing your mindset around this really informs how you show up in these situations. Yeah. And
Kim Meninger
then it comes from a place of empowerment. Right. As opposed to a place of I'm not good enough. Yes. Oh, my gosh, Melody, I could talk to you all day. I love our conversations. So for everybody listening who wants to learn more about you access your book and all your other great resources, where can they find you?
Melody Wilding
You can find me at Melodywilding.com. If you had to Melodywilding.com/book, you can download a free chapter of the book there. I also invite you to connect with me on LinkedIn, just search melody wilding, I have five currently LinkedIn learning courses, that would be great for you to check out lots more tools and strategies there.
Kim Meninger
And I think Melody how I found you, as you write a lot of articles to so I started following your work there. And I'm curious if that's, you know, if there's a way to follow that in a more consistent way for people listening or, you know, are there certain outlets that you target or how does that work?
Melody Wilding
Yeah, I would say I'm right now, I'm most active on HBR or Harvard Business Review. So I think LinkedIn is probably the best place I post all of my articles, I share them all on there. But if you search on HBR, you search my name, you'll come up with all of the articles there too.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Thank you so much for all that you do for us. It's, it's wonderful to hear your insights and so grateful to have a chance to talk to you again.
Melody Wilding
Well, likewise. Thank you.