In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about introversion. If you’re an introvert, you’ve likely felt pressured, directly or indirectly, to be more like your extroverted colleagues. Workplaces tend to have an extrovert bias, which can make it really hard for introverts to own and embrace their unique strengths. This week, I’m talking with Stacey Chazin, a leadership coach and founder of I-Factor Leadership, who is a proud introvert and advocate for other introverts. Here we talk about how introverts can identify their positive core, in other words, the best of who they are, and use it to become more confident, effective leaders. We also talk about ways extroverts and organizations can better support introverts, which leads to better outcomes for everyone.
About My Guest
Stacey Chazin, a dynamic leadership development coach and proud introvert, is rewriting the narrative on introversion. Having grappled with societal expectations that favored extraversion, Stacey underwent a remarkable transformation. Instead of conforming to societal pressures, she embraced her introverted qualities, turning them into powerful assets that allowed her to thrive both professionally and personally. Now, as a fervent advocate for introverts, Stacey draws on her extensive corporate and non-profit experience, a master’s in organizational development and leadership, and certification as a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator® (MBTI®) practitioner to empower introverts, guiding them toward self-acceptance, fulfillment, and success in the workplace and beyond.
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Connect with Stacey:
Websites: https://moementum.com/, https://ifactorleadership.com, https://ifactorleadership.com/coaching/
Conference Survival Guide for Introverts: https://ifactorleadership.com/survivalguide/
Daily Productivity Hacks for Introverts: https://ifactorleadership.com/productivity/
Meeting Playbook for Introverts: 10 Strategies to Have Your Voice Heard and Your Ideas Shine: https://ifactorleadership.com/meetingplaybook/
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Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Stacey. It is so wonderful to have you here today, and I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Stacey Chazin
Thank you, Kim. It's great to be here. So my name is Stacey Chazen. I am a leadership coach for introverts, and I'll tell you a little bit about what that means and how I got here. So I've been telling this story a number of times lately, and each time I tell it, I've realized that my story starts earlier and earlier and earlier in my life, to the point where I now realize it, it probably started when I was in preschool. And I say that because from the time that we are really young, when we first start to be in social environments, we begin to hear the message that being extroverted is preferable to being introverted. And so when you think about preschool, for example, you know the teacher will say to you or, or to your parents, well, it's circle time, and you know it's bet you need to, you need to sit down and be with the whole group, and we're in circle time, and play with more kids on the playground. And don't build blocks by yourself, but play with the blocks with others. And, and we hear these messages starting as, as young as three or two or three, and it carries through, through school and, and our career, that the characteristics that I learned in my life are associated with being extroverted, right? Being more social, having more friends, wanting to go out on a Saturday night versus staying in and reading a book or hanging out with just one or two other people. The more social, the more collaborative, the more engaging. That's what society values. And as I was growing up, I would I would hear people describe me in ways that that I was aloof, that I was antisocial, that I wasn't friendly, and it just didn't I knew those words weren't me, and I wasn't sure why, why was coming off that way. And as I moved into my professional life, I saw the same dynamics at play, right, that we're, we're told to, to network, to work with others, to collaborate, to go out for happy-hour after a long day of work, that all of these things are preferable to wanting to work in a small group or on our own, or to just have lunch at our desk, because we need to recharge. Right and about, I think it's about 15 years ago now, I had the opportunity to take a Myers Briggs Type Indicator Assessment, or an MBTI. And for any of your listeners who don't know what that is, MBTI, it's the world's most commonly used personality assessment, and it tells us how we're wired along a few different dimensions, one of which is how we get energy from the world. And if, for introverts, the way we get energy from the world is we tend to recharge when we're by ourselves, when we're deep in thought, or when we're with a small group of people or one other person. Versus extroverts that, that are energized by being with more people, engaging more, talking out thinking out loud, so to speak. And so I had a chance to do an MBTI assessment, and all of a sudden I realized there was a word to describe what I am, and that's introverted, among other things, and it gave me it was this aha moment for me, learning about how I'm wired, but also how my colleagues were wired, and why I worked better with some people and others, and it launched me on this path of, of realizing that we as introverts are we're challenged in the world because our workplaces, most workplaces, are Designed with extroverts in mind, how the day is scheduled, what the expectations are. And I started, I started writing about this different realizations and aha moments that I had, had as an introvert. And I heard back from people when I would publish blog posts saying, I'm feeling the exact same way, right? I feel like the world isn't recognizing me for who I am and appreciating my strengths, and I need to, to show up differently. I have to pretend to be extroverted and, you know, act like I love, to network and go out for happy hours and, and all these things that just aren't aligned with who I am. And so fast forward a little bit. I went back to school and got a master's in organizational development and leadership. I got certified as a Myers Briggs practitioner, and I now help other introverts figure out how they can embrace their strengths and move forward more powerfully at work and move into leadership roles. And I do that through my business, which is called I-Factor Leadership because I say we've got the I factor, we introverts.
Kim Meninger
I love that. And I am curious whether your journey to this point involved, or I shouldn't say whether, because I think it always does. You know, self-doubt. And I guess I'm curious. Curious, how did you get to a place where you were brave enough to start putting your thoughts out into the world, when so many people instead are thinking, I'm the problem, right? Like, how do you, how do you get to start to realize, oh, maybe there are flaws in the system and that it's not me, that's the problem?
Stacey Chazin
Yeah. Great question. Um, so I think going through the Myers Briggs assessment, and getting this, this whole report about myself, which I felt like it was like a window to my soul. And it's not just about being introverted you, you have it's four different letters that speak to, to how you're wired, essentially, and the combination of those letters are nuanced. It's not just, so the sum is greater than the than the individual parts, right? So one was, I saw that, you know, that kind of validated who I am and how I'm wired, and that gave me some confidence. And then, really, I just started putting myself out there and, and I'm a perfectionist, which many introverts are, so I was very nervous about starting to write about this publicly because it's you're vulnerable, right? You're saying, Here are ways where I feel like I've fallen short, and where I've forever have felt like I'm not enough, not as good enough, or not creative enough, social enough all these things. And I was, I was really afraid when I first started writing that people were going to write back and say, oh, you know, that's not being an introvert, that's just you and you're flawed in other ways. Or someone was going to write back on social media if I posted a blog and say, No, you've really got this wrong. People don't do that, right, unless you're a celebrity or you're you know, which I certainly am, not people, if you're not connecting with them, they're just going to stop reading. But I started writing about it, and I started getting individual emails from people, or if I would run into someone at a conference, and someone would say I wrote a blog about returning to large meetings conferences after COVID, and how I realized how, as an introvert, having a break from these in-person meetings was actually fueling for me and, and now that I was going back into the world of big conferences, how am I going to protect my energy and, you know, care, care for myself while I'm there so I'm not burnt out. And I started writing about that, and people told me that they, they saw themselves in, in what I was struggling with. And it was that feeling of and even it was just a handful of people saying, Yeah, that's how I'm feeling. And it was so helpful to hear you or see you, put it on paper. That was all the motivation I needed. It was very, it was very motivating to feel that I was connecting with other people by being vulnerable about the fears I had had and the inadequacies, inadequacies I had felt over the years.
Kim Meninger
And I think that vulnerability is so important for ourselves, but also giving permission to other people too.
Stacey Chazin
Yeah, to yeah, for sure.
Kim Meninger
So we are in a system that continues to favor extroverts largely. But so I guess the, the question is, and I know if it were this simple, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But now you what, what do we do about it? And I guess first, let's tackle that from the perspective of what you and I were talking about before we hit record, which is really helping introverts think about like, I think, you know, introverts, because of the systems that have been set up, often measure themselves in relationship to extroverts, right, [Yes.] refers to it being something that they, they, they're evaluating them themselves independently. And so I really like what you were talking about when you were talking about the positive core. Can you just say more about like, how do introverts understand themselves without it being by comparison to an extrovert?
Stacey Chazin
That’s a great question because, yeah, you know our world, and if we talk about our workplaces specifically, are all set up with extroverts in mind. There's this extrovert bias in how our work days are scheduled, what the expectations are for getting work done and engaging with others. And the key right is, is not pretending to be an extrovert, because you're not going to be successful when we try to be something we're not. We're rarely successful at it. So you want to lean into who you are authentically as as a person, including who you are as an introvert. So I talk about in my coaching practice, I help my, my clients identify what's called their positive core. And that's a notion from a coaching framework called appreciative coaching, which is essentially focused on, focused on the positive, right, not trying to. Fix what's not working or change yourself in some way. But how do you use the best of who you are? How do you build on what's working for you to be more successful, to be happier, to be more effective in your job? So your positive core is essentially the best of who you are as a person. And so the way it works is I guide my clients to reflect on what's called peak experiences, so to look back on what were somewhat were some times in your life, including in your work life, where you felt most fulfilled, where you felt like you were having the greatest impact, where you were working well with others, where you felt like you were really able to put your skills and expertise and gifts to work. And then, when you, you look back on those that set of peak experiences, you can identify, Okay, what were the conditions? What were some common conditions across those experiences? How was I showing up? What was I getting to do, or what skills was I getting to use? And when you identify some things that are that are showing up across those experiences, that's what makes up, in part, your positive core. So for example, introverts tend to be highly empathetic. So it could be that one of your peak experiences was you help to manage a situation, a high-conflict situation. We tend to be very good at that because of our empathy and our ability to read between the lines. For some introverts. so a lot of introverts tend to be very strong writers. So it could be that one of your peak experiences was focused on you had the opportunity to do a lot of writing, to go deep in your subject matter expertise, because we also tend to thrive when we can go deep rather than just skimming the surface. So, so you'll take a look at these experiences, and then you by identifying your positive core, you get a picture of what's the best of who you are. And then using that, you think about, okay, what are some opportunities in my workplace where I can apply that positive core? I call them introvert-powered leadership opportunities -- ways I can apply my positive core so that I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. I can lean into my strengths, my gifts, my positive core, and you're going to have a greater chance of being successful at what you're doing. You'll you're more likely to shine and be recognized for your leadership than you would be if you were trying to fit that, that extroverted mold that's out there.
Kim Meninger
And, I have a question for you, and I know this probably depends on other factors as well, but generally speaking, do you recommend naming your introversion to the people around you. I mean, I'm on the one hand, right, like I hesitate to label people, but on the other hand, I wonder if it's you had mentioned previously about being considered aloof and antisocial, and I think sometimes for extroverts, and maybe even for some introverts too, when you don't have an explanation for why somebody's behaving a certain way, we're always making up stories. And I think introverts are harder to read sometimes because you don't have as much data available to you as you do. Extroverts, kind of, you know, say what's on their mind, and they're you have more visual cues or behavioral cues to go off of. So yeah, anything would you recommend introverts say about who they are to the people around them?
Stacey Chazin
Oh, I've never been asked that question, and that's, that's such a great question because, like I said, there's this, there's this extrovert bias. So I do think there is a risk, if you, you know upon meeting people or, or joining a team, or whatever the situation is, and yes, you need to assess your level of, I guess, psychological safety and sharing that when you announce that you're an introvert. Yes, there. I absolutely believe that there are going to be biases that won't necessarily work in your favor. But what I do recommend is letting people know, without using that label necessarily, letting people know who you are and how, how you work at your best. And so one recommendation I make when you're first joining a team, or when a team comes together for the first time, and let's say you're sitting around a table, whether in person or on Zoom, is to go around the table and have each person share one thing they want the rest of the team to know about, what they need to do their best work or to be at their best. And that's your opportunity for everyone introverted or extroverted to share, to share things that are related to your introversion version, without necessarily using that word, right? So, for example, you could say, hey, team, what I need to be successful is I need to have a balance of collaborative time and individual work time. Or for me to be really effective at a meeting, I need to get the agenda ahead of time so that I can prepare and jot down some points. Now, I'd argue that's. Best Practice, whether you're introverted or extroverted, or to let your manager know that after a meeting you prefer to or it would be beneficial for you to be able to contribute in your best way, if you could give the meeting question some thought and get back to her afterward, either in writing or in a one on one meeting, so without necessarily saying the word introverted, you know, talking about what that means, talking about what you need to thrive, to be at your best.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's so much more effective anyway because a lot of times we throw around terms and assume that everyone's defining it in the same way, and we don't actually know everyone understands introversion and extroversion or and so to attach behaviors to it instead. And I'm a huge proponent of what you just said. I think every team project, everything should start with a what do we, each of us need in order to do our best work, best support each other? So I love using that as an opportunity to say, here's what here's what good looks like.
Stacey Chazin
Yeah.
Kim Meninger
So I guess I'm wondering too, not all of the work should be on introverts, right? I mean, I think that obviously there's, there's a certain amount of inner work that introverts may want to engage in, just as you're talking about, to kind of overcome some of those limiting beliefs that have, have come from a lot of these extrovert biases. But what can organizations, what can extroverts do to be more inclusive?
Stacey Chazin
Great question. So as a manager, as an organization, or even as a peer, I think it's really important to pay attention to what your what your colleagues need to be successful. So it could be as a manager, sitting down, and certainly not just with introverts, but sitting down with your, with your teammates to say, How can I best support you? What do you need to operate at your best? So basically prompting that question that I suggested using around the table, proactively pay attention in you know, part of it is you can ask that question explicitly, and then I think, also paying attention to seeing when your teammates, when the people you manage, tend to be at their best. When are they thriving? When are they their happiest? And, and when you see that, when you say, hey, you know, I saw that Kim actually gave me a much better work product when I gave her the opportunity to give me to write it in a memo than when I put her on the spot in a meeting. Then you, you know that you want to go back to Kim next time and say, Hey Kim, like, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Is that something you might be able to, you know, send me an email by the end of the week? Or I'd love to know, I'd love to know what you think we can sit down and talk one-on-one. Or do you want to put something down on paper or on your computer screen? So pay attention to that. See when you're when your colleagues are thriving and then when they tend not to be. [Yeah.] Right? For example, if you one of the ways that I encourage introverts to manage burnout during the day, like to prevent burnout, is to the extent possible, don't schedule back-to-back meetings. Or some organizations put, I know, I've put policies in place where they only want one-hour meetings to actually be 50 minutes, so that people have that 10 minutes, whether it's for a bio break or just to recharge, whatever you need to try to schedule your day that way. And so if you're seeing as a manager that your team just had a four-hour meeting, or there were back-to-back meetings and, and you can see some of your teammates seem more depleted after that than others. It gives you clues about how someone is wired, that they're more it's more likely that they that they're introverted than extroverted.
Kim Meninger
I think that's a really good point to pay attention, to ask the questions directly, but also to pay attention and observe how your team performs and when they do their best work. I also think that there are ways in which managers are just so overwhelmed and so one of the things that I always get pushed back is I don't have time, right? I don't have time for all of this. And I argue you don't have time not to right, because you're not taking the time to do this, then you're taking time, unnecessary time to clean up the mess on the other side. Right?
Stacey Chazin
Exactly, right? You're not going to get as much out of them, and they're more likely to quit, right? They're going to they're more likely going to burn out, and then it's going to cost you a whole lot more to recruit and retrain and all that stuff.
Kim Meninger
Yes and, and when it comes to things like confidence, where I think people have over-value, a lot of, a lot of people over-value confidence and confident that behaviors, but we often think of confident behaviors as extroverted behaviors, in many ways too, right? It's the person who's fastest to speak up in the meeting, the person who's loudest, which isn't necessarily a confident behavior, but that's often how we think about it. And so we might see somebody who's quieter in a meeting, they're, they're not confident, or they're not assertive, or we, you know, we sort of draw these inappropriate conclusions about their mindset or their leadership capabilities, and I wonder what you think about that, and like, where there are opportunities there for both the introvert as well as for the manager.
Stacey Chazin
Yeah. So that's exactly right. Like extroverts tend to think out loud as expression goes right, they're, they're gonna more often be the person who comes up with an idea more quickly at a meeting. It's not necessarily gonna be the best idea, but that's their process more so. So I think for introverts, it's raising awareness among the people you work with that there are other ways. So doing things like reaching out to your manager to say, Hey, I'd like to have an opportunity, or at the end of a meeting, if you didn't come up with some big idea, I'd like to have an opportunity to kind of get back to you with some thoughts. I'd like to just, I'd like to sit with it, and when you have that time to think more deeply, to, to let an idea marinate, or to do some research, because we tend to be good researchers, letting your manager know that that would be helpful for you. And when your manager starts to see that, when they say yes to that, you're giving them really good ideas, they're getting better work out of you, my hope is that they'll start to make those opportunities available de facto, that you won't have to ask for it. So it's, it's shining a light on the fact that there are great ideas and great thinking that are going to come out of different processes, not just extrovert-friendly processes and structures.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah, and, and, I think sometimes certain roles or certain situations require or favor more on your feet types of thinking, yeah, and, and so one sometimes people will ask me, Well, what if I have to answer a question immediately, but I'd rather think about it, right? [Yeah.] And so, you know, one of the things that I've suggested, and I wonder if you have other thoughts on this too, is just to say I would prefer to give that some thought and come back to you with a more thoughtful answer, but if you need an immediate response, right, like, here's what's on the top of my head, just so that you've got something in the moment, but you reserve the right to come back later.
Stacey Chazin
Yes, yeah, I think that's perfect. I do. I mean, and I getting a meeting, well, a meeting agenda certainly isn't going to cover every question that's going to come up, or any request, every request, every request that's going to come up, certainly getting that in advance is going to help you to prepare, so that you can try to anticipate the questions that might arise and give, give those some thought ahead of time. But the question you just suggested, the response you suggest, just suggested, is perfect.
Kim Meninger
Great, and I appreciate your reinforcing the importance of the agenda too. I always say to people, you don't have time for a mystery meeting.
Stacey Chazin
Oh, I love that. I love that because right all the time, like, we hop on a call, and people aren't prepared ahead of time because they don't know what's going to be covered. And it's also really helpful for helping the conversation not to get off track. So agenda should not only include your items that you're going to talk about, but what are the desired outcomes for this meeting. So what is it that we're working toward? Are we working toward coming to agreement on something, coming up with an initial list of ideas, making some administrative decision? Have the whole group be clear on this is what we're working toward. For this meeting to be a success, we will need to have gotten to these three places and, and so that can help you to refocus. And that's also good for introverts.
Kim Meninger
And don't be afraid to ask for it if you don't get it. I think that's, that's something too, is that we worry that we're overstepping, [yeah,] by asking, but you have a right to that information if someone wants to take an hour out of your day, right? Like you have a right to know what is expected of you and [why is exactly right] your time.
Stacey Chazin
That's exactly right. Yeah. And as, as a meeting organizer or facilitator or leader, it's in your best interest to send out the agenda in advance so you're more likely to get out of the meeting what your desired outcomes are, so it's not wasting other people's time and it's not wasting yours.
Kim Meninger
That’s right, that's it's a best practice. Like you said. [Totally.] And one other thing that I wanted to ask you about, because I talk a lot about visibility and self and that can be more challenging. For introverts, and I'm stereotyping here, but there are a lot of introverts who would prefer to stay out of the spotlight, and aren't necessarily motivated by the glory and the attention that comes with doing great work, and so, but we also know that it's important to be recognized for the work doing, and so I wonder if you have thoughts on more authentic ways for introverts to get that kind of recognition.
Stacey Chazin
Yeah, and you're absolutely right. We, we introverts tend to, we tend to shun the spotlight, where many of us, and I want to just take one breath here, just to say, and you spoke to that a minute ago, but we're talking in generalization. So not every introvert is wired this way. There are varying degrees of how your introversion shows up in different situations where it's going to show up differently. So I want to, I want to acknowledge that all of that said, we tend to not like to be in the spotlight, and so it's challenging then to, to build your personal brand, to get recognition for, for your contributions, because you're not speaking up for them. And as much as we'd like our work to speak for itself, that is often not the case. And when the louder people in the office or cubicle next to us, when they're when they're speaking up more and tuning their own horns in a way that is, is louder more visible it, it can lead to them getting more recognition, getting the promotion, getting the raise, all the things that we're a little more timid about speaking up for. So the key, and the key to it is really just, it's tapping into your introverted strengths, your, your positive core again, and doing it the introverted way, not trying to be, not trying to promote yourself the way extroverts do. And so what that could look like, for example, is leveraging your thought leadership so find ways to, to shine a light on who you are as a thought leader in introvert-friendly ways. So that could be curating a blog, it could be writing an article that you contribute to a journal. It could be writing a memo to your team talking about some issue that you're facing and weaving into that what you've done to, to help work toward a solution. Another way to do it is, and I talk about this as you're getting ready for your performance reviews, which were coming up on that season. How do you prepare for those in a way that's going to set you up to get recognized for what you've contributed over the past year? And what I recommend is set up a meeting with your manager quarterly to do a performance check-in, or a leadership check-in, whatever you want to call it, and use those meetings to talk about, here's where I want to be headed in my in my career, if there's a promotion you're looking for, if there's a new role that you want to be playing, and to have conversations with your manager about, what do I need to get there and then to be collecting over the course of The year, keeping a compendium of your contributions. What have you done to, to work toward that leadership role? What have you done to contribute to a team's goals or an organization's goals? So you're taking you're taking the spotlight off yourself. In some ways, it's less about, oh, look at me and all and how great I am, but you're reframing it in terms of how you've helped the greater good by what you're doing. And then you, you tap into your we're very good at collecting data, looking at looking at patterns, looking at trends, pulling together those accomplishments over the course of the year, so that when you're meeting at year's end that you can you have that handy to be, be able to say to your manager, you know, here's what I did this past year. Here's how I contributed. And so it's that it's in that smaller group, that one-on-one, a lot of it's in writing because you're collecting it. And it's essentially, it's finding these, it's finding forums and channels where you can tap into your strengths to communicate what you've done and what your gifts are.
Kim Meninger
Mm, yeah, and I'm a big believer in coming from a place of service, rather than ego, when it comes to self, too, right? And you [Yes], that point of this isn't about me, per se, but it's about what is, what am I doing for the team or for the organization or how, you know, how are others benefiting from my work?
Stacey Chazin
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we should all have that. We should all have that perspective, introvert or extrovert. [Right.] But, but when we do that, it's a way using that lens can help introverts be more comfortable talking about their accomplishments and contributions and why they think they deserve a promotion, a raise, a role they want to play, etc.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I, I'm curious just to shift gears a little bit here because you obviously had a life before coaching. And I wonder, how do you help introverts think about, you've given a lot of really great practical tips for how to manage the environment and, you know, show up more authentically, [Yeah], but how do you know I've done what I can, and this is just not the right environment for me? I mean it how do I know when it's time to leave a job?
Stacey Chazin
Wow, that's a good question. I think that it's over time you want to look and see. Is this a place that's making me feel valued, that's making me feel like I can be authentically who I am, and that's letting me have an opportunity to really use my strengths and gifts in a way that's having an impact? And if you, if you continue to hear the message that your, your gifts, your approach to work, your personality, are not the right fit, and you need to change how you're doing things and who you are, that might suggest you're not in the right place. You know, certainly everyone has a lot of considerations when making a decision to leave a job, financially and otherwise, but those are certainly signals that you're not in a place that's going to both value you as a leader and give you opportunities to make the biggest impact that you want to have.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And one of the things that I recommend, too, is if you reach that point and you have the privilege of being able to do this, because I recognize that, like you said, there are financial considerations, and it's not always a transition. Once you've determined this, I'm, you know, this is not my future, then use it as a practice ground for having more conversations around what you need, right? Because, unfortunately, the extrovert, extrovert bias is pretty pervasive, so you're likely to encounter it to some degree everywhere you go once you're at a place where you feel like I'm not going to be here for the long term, it's a great place to practice building those self-advocacy muscles and maybe sharing things that you wouldn't have felt comfortable doing before because if you build those muscles here, you can take them with you to wherever you go.
Stacey Chazin
I love that kind of you know, use it as a laboratory. What works? And I, yeah, yeah. And I think you might people might be surprised when they start to do that, when they let go of the fear of how that they're going to be received, when they share things that might go a lot better than they think. And then to your point about every place being extrovert, having an extrovert bias, think that's largely true. And one of the things I've written about this a little bit is, when you're looking for a job, how can you assess that, assess whether opportunities are going to be aligned with your introversion, right? And when you're in a job interview or you're meeting other people in the office, to kind of explore what the structures are, what the systems are with an eye toward, am I going to have opportunities to contribute in writing, to balance group work with individual work, to go deep in my subject matter expertise? So take the lessons from where you're leaving and say, Okay, these are all the things I realized did not set me up for success to the extent possible. Try to figure out if where you're looking to go is gonna, is gonna set you up for success, or are you gonna have that flexibility? And talking about, you know, in your job interview, maybe not saying I'm an introvert, you know, use your judgment there, but like we talked about earlier, to share with the interviewers what you need to be most successful in the job, and try to get a sense of whether those opportunities will be there for you.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I think, you know, oftentimes when we're in the interview process, we're so focused on making a good impression on the other party as opposed to really vetting it first. And I think if you have to pretend to be an extrovert in the interview, you know you're in for a long exhausting ride. [Yeah. That's right. That's right.] Better, you know. Now if those you know, if those conditions are not going to exist, so that you can gracefully, then to have to, you know, I know sometimes people are afraid to ask questions that might weed them out of the out of the process. But if that's what's going to do it. You would rather know that now.
Stacey Chazin
That's right, that's right. Maybe you want to weed yourself out of the process.
Kim Meninger
Exactly, exactly. This has been such a great conversation Stacey, thank you so much for having it with me, and I want to make sure that anybody listening who wants more of you and your work and knows how to find you.
Stacey Chazin
Great. Thank you. Kim, well, this has been fun for me as well. I appreciate it. So people can find me at I factor leadership dot com. I'm going to, I also have, if you go there, if you go to the website, there's a free download that I have there called Daily Productivity Hacks for Introverts, so Ways to Achieve More with Less Stress. And it talks about ways that you can set up your workday, set up your workspace to not to minimize the introvert burnout and get more done. And then I'll also give you a link for the show notes we talked a little bit earlier about, how do you go to a big conference and protect your energy and thrive? So I have a Conference Survival Guide that I created for introverts. It's a free download that I'll give you. I would love people to check it out, and then they can also find me on LinkedIn, on the I factor leadership is my handle there. Please check me out.
Kim Meninger
Yes, absolutely. And we’ll put the links in the show notes, as you mentioned as well. And thank you again. This has been such a great conversation. It's very valuable to I’m sure many people listening and thank you for your work.
Stacey Chazin
My pleasure. Thank you for your time.