In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about navigating self-doubt as an “only”. My guest this week, Carrie Driscoll, is the co-founder of Reef Consulting. Here she shares her career journey from winning a college scholarship as the only female in computer science to working in software startups to eventually founding her on consulting firm. Carrie shares how she navigates self-doubt and offers tips and strategies we can all use to show up more confidently at work.
About My Guest
With over two decades of experience in Agile coaching, project management, and change management, Carrie Driscoll co-founded Reef Consulting to help organizations achieve quality, speed, growth, scalability, and innovation. As the president of Reef Consulting, Carrie leads a team of agile experts who provide executive coaching, strategic guidance, digital transformation, and change management to fortune 100 clients across various industries.
Carrie holds multiple certifications in agile methodologies, including Scrum@Scale, Scaled Agile Framework Program Consultant (SPC), Certified Scrum Master (CSM), and ICAgile Certified Practitioner (ICP). Carrie is passionate about empowering high-performing teams, fostering a culture of continuous improvement, and delivering value to customers and stakeholders. Carrie also enjoys sharing her insights and best practices as an entrepreneur, speaker, and mentor in the Agile community.
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Website: https://reefconsultingllc.com/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Carrie, I am so excited to have this conversation with you today. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Carrie Driscoll
Thank you, Kim. I'm excited to be here. And thank you so much for having me. So introduce myself. So Carrie Driscoll, I'm President and Chief Evangelist of Brief Consulting, I grew up professionally grew up in, in software, mostly startups, technical background, I was in quality assurance and part of that technical support, but went into becoming more of an Agile transformation agent, as I learned more about how powerful that that framework is that philosophy and that way of working, is for creating really powerful, autonomous teams to get things done, right. So we have these amazing people on these teams, and you just let them go, as long as you give them those guidelines, you let them go, and they love it. And they do, they do well. And they're happy at work. And all those things make for these great high-performing teams. So I enjoy helping build those organizations. And I've been doing that ever since I got recruited out of software into a consultant company, and move through the ranks there quickly became the head of the practice, and just help both coaches Scrum Masters and the clients with, with these things, I did a lot of matching of some of these phenomenal coaches that are out there and Scrum Masters that are out there with clients and industries in order to help them get through that transformation aspect more quickly, and help them build their teams. So now I have reef consulting my own practice. And it's been great. And I have this amazing network of people. And I'm really just out there helping clients with getting the best things done the right things done at the right time, and having the information to make their decisions as they go.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Congratulations.
Carrie Driscoll
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Kim Meninger
I would love to ask you a question. Just generally, how has your experience been as a woman in the tech sector having grown up there and experienced it in different ways? Right, it sounds like, you know, you maybe worked for software startups, for consultants and now you have your own? What has that trajectory look like for you?
Carrie Driscoll
So initially, I was very naive, although I obviously realized I was one of many I mean, I think I did I got, I actually got a scholarship in college because I was the only women woman in computer science major. So they gave me a scholarship just for that. So I was you know, there were very few women in tech, when I was going through school, and when I was when I was starting out. And it's interesting because I do recall one situation in Boston walking, walking out of a big engineering meeting with one of my companies. And, and as I was standing there waiting for the team to come out and like it was a lot of men coming out the door, a woman walked up to me and said shame on you. And I kind of didn't. And I said excuse me, like I felt like maybe I insulted her some way. And she's like, how can you stand here be a part of this organization that is all men. You're one woman, one woman and all men, and I kind of like was taken aback like, Okay, first off. I didn't understand my role in that, like, what am I supposed to do about that? She doesn't know me. You know? And at the time I was, you know, yes, I was head of QA. But there was very little, you know, well, I shouldn't say that. In retrospect, I'm sure I could have tried to do a little bit more. But anyway, it was just, it was interesting. And I almost look back at her and I, you know, you think about things after I should have turned around and said, well, shame on you for reaching out to the only woman in the group and saying shame, shame on me. Like, why didn't you talk to any of those guys, right, though? Right? Oh, God. But it did, you know, make me think about that fact. More at that time than I had been. And, and it was interesting. I had a leader at that time, that was very into you know diversity. And he was I was putting together an internship program. And that was one of the things he said he said, Let's try to get more women involved and young women involved in tech, thinking about the excitement of being part of a tech team. So, so I mean, I don't know if it was allowed HR-wise, but we went ahead and we went, we went to schools that were, you know, all women colleges and stuff and then got some great interns that were interested in technology and brought them in, and some of them are still working in tech, which is great to think back on now. But um, but yeah, it was a, it was a strange time. So being one of it was it was not the easiest thing in the world. And I do recall later as I started learning more and more about unconscious bias and stuff like that. I realized I was doing all of those things. You know, starting my sentences in these meetings where I was a part of like the leadership team and, and I'd still start my sentences with like, Oh, I'm sorry, can I just say one thing? You know, you're sitting at an executive team meeting and you say, I'm sorry. Like, why are we saying I'm sorry, I'm, nobody offended me, or I didn't offend anyone just speaking? So, yeah, it's interesting how we kind of self-sabotage, in a way. And so I guess, as I became more and more aware, I decided to become more aware, like actually go out and learn more about how can I, myself, stop these practices and get better at empowering myself. And, you know, I'm here for a reason understanding my value, and not self-doubting. That one's the hardest one. But also empowering others around me, whether they're men or women, right? I mean, men, men have impostor syndrome as well. Right? It's just I think the statistic is 18, or 20%. More women do than men? I don't know, I think I just read that. So it was, it was that easy one. But it wasn't, it wasn't hard in that I would get these amazing jobs and these amazing opportunities, the hard part was always like, understanding what my value is compared to others, or thinking that the organization was going to give me the amount of money that I deserved, based on the value that I was giving, or delivering. And that's not necessarily the case. Right. And that definitely wasn't the case. And I had some great, I had some great leaders, I had some great colleagues that helped me through some of those harder times and said, No, no, like, you know, if you're a guy, you would ask for this, if you were, you know, this is how, this is how I would do it. And they were male, male colleagues. And it was interesting because it's very different from the way I was doing it. And the way I'm sure a lot of women are, are asking or not asking for what they think that they deserve.
Kim Meninger
It's so interesting because as I'm hearing your talk, I'm hearing that there's a combination of the behaviors of others that sort of influence how you show up. And I don't mean you personally, but all of us, right, influence how we show up. But then there's also our own mindset, which has the potential to get in our way. And it's hard to separate those two because the which, which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Carrie Driscoll
Absolutely, like, what was it about that? Like, is it that you're the only woman in that organization that causes you need to act this way and behave this way? You know, very tentative about your role? You know, is it at risk? Are you supposed to look like all of them and act like all of them and do the same things that they're doing? But then when you do, do you get ridiculed for it? Or put down for it? Or you're not active? You know, I don't know, it's, it's true, it's hard to tell which one is which.
Kim Meninger
Did you have any mentors or people that you could talk to more candidly, that helped you sort of navigate some of that gray area?
Carrie Driscoll
Later in life? Absolutely. I had some amazing leaders. So VPs of engineering and, and also my husband is very supportive, and very much like, you know, he's in tech. So he's like, No, No, you shouldn't do this. Or, or if you do this, speak, speak from a place of abundance and confidence, right? So speak from a place of, you know, your value. Versus Oh, you know, I think you know, if you think it's okay, give me whatever you want, or, or to the other point I made, don't say sorry, before you start a sentence, or if you have a really great idea, put out that really great idea. Because one thing I do think we do as women is, we need to be almost 100% prepped for something before we go into it. So, so have confidence that you're ready to say whatever it is that you're saying that you are probably in the right, of whatever it is that you're talking about, because you've put a lot of time and effort into it. I think someone at one point said yes, statistically, men will look at a job description when they're going for a job. And there'll be like, oh, yeah, 60% of that I can cover the other 40% I'll learn on the job. Whereas I know I myself will go in and be like, Oh, no, I have to have 100% of everything here. Before I even think about applying and then and then I'll still look at, you know, do I have enough? And I don't know what the stat is on how many on what women will be looking at across the board. But I know for me personally, that's how I do it. So as far as your question goes, yes. So I had my husband and I had some great leaders and in that time I these great leaders, some of them were those types of multiplier leaders where you know, I've do a presentation or something and my, my boss, my EVP would like, text me right away and be like, you just nailed that. No, that was fantastic. And he would say, not just to me personally, he would say it out loud, right. Because if you want to be a multiplier, you do need to have to say it in front of others so that others realize that, that something happened. And it was, it was a good thing, and that that person was the reason for it. And if you just say it to them, silently, it doesn't work, as well, that's, and then I had colleagues. Eventually, I had colleagues who I had someone in my exact same role but was like, responsible for 25% of the country. And I was responsible for 75% of the country. And he has an amazing wife, who's had this very successful career. And he said, you know, Carrie, I have a feeling that you and I are doing the exact same job with you having more responsibility. I think that there's some inequality and what we're getting paid. And I was like that. And I know you're really not supposed to talk about that. But he wanted, he wanted to understand what I was getting paid. And let me know what he was getting paid. And it was yeah, 25% more than me. And so, you know, he said you need, you need to do something about that. Because that's not just for you. But for everyone else in this organization going forward, you need to work on that equality. And so I did and when I first mentioned it to my boss, my, my direct boss, he was like, well, so and so it has way marks or not way has some more experience than you do. And I said, okay, but we're doing the exact same job. Same, same responsibilities. And I have 75% more responsibility, because I have 75% our country, which is a lot more people, and, and I'm killing it, you know, so his experience and my experience are not a factor right now. Because it's all working, and I'm doing the exact same thing. And he, it was like a light bulb, he was like, oh, so true. Wow. So he said, like, okay, so when you want, you know, and he went, and he was able to do that. So that was a good leader to be able to do that. And, you know, take in that new information and understand that it made sense, and then go back. And he was able to do that. So I appreciated that. And interestingly enough, you know, within the next six months, my colleague who had raised it in the first place was, was, I took over, head of all the whole department, he was working for me, but I mean with me. And he was perfectly fine with that, because that's the type of person he was, he was like he knew exactly the best way that the organization should be running. And it worked. So yes, I had some great people in my life.
Kim Meninger
That’s a great story. And I wonder, you know that there were a lot of forces at play there, right? You had a colleague who was willing to share that information and, and cared enough about you and wanting to make sure that that equity existed, you had to show the courage to take that message to your manager, right? And then he had to be willing to listen and then take action. Do you have advice for other people listening who know they're in that situation, or suspect that they're in that situation, but maybe haven't been given that same opening, to be able to take that to their manager,
Carrie Driscoll
I would say that, you know, if you're going to wait for your next conversation about a raise or potential promotion, you know, when you getting feedback from your leader, be very prepared in why you deserve to be at level with those, those that are in the same role as you, right? So, I mean, it's really important to understand that experience is important to get the job and experience important to be able to do the job well. But if now you are already in and you and you have the job, and you have been doing it well, and you have the same responsibilities as someone else in that organization, that that should be across the board, a pretty close margin of what people are making, for that value that you're adding. Because you're, you're adding the exact same value, or if you're adding in my case more, you need to be able to raise that but be very prepared. And again, I'm sure you will be because I gotta say, I mean, women are always, they seem to be always very prepared because they want to make sure that they have their own little self-doubt in there. You know, and so you want to you want to kick that back. And so we're often very prepared to do that reason, then again, that could be a little self-sabotage. We're anxious about it, I don't know. But um, but I would say yeah, be prepared have like, even a presentation of it, which is what I did, I had a presentation of the differences and all the things that I was doing and all the things that others were doing, and, and then the differences and it really was like if your list of it was very heavily weighted on my side of all the things that were adding value and in Actually, in this case ROI, right, it was a revenue-generating department. And so that's pretty important as well, to an organization.
Kim Meninger
And I think you make a great point too, because that that actually creates an opportunity for the decision to be made and made based on data, as opposed to being perceived as emotion on your part, right? Like you can't argue facts.
Carrie Driscoll
Right, exactly. Absolutely. Yes. Sorry. I wasn't clear on that. Yes, data will make the difference. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I want to take a moment here to, to get your thoughts on the difference between preparation and perfectionist. Because I think sometimes, you know, women in particular, when we think about being prepared, there's this sense that we never feel fully prepared, because we can't anticipate every question we might be asked, I think a lot of this is like a carryover from school to where we used to be really good students who would, you know, try to try to get the eight plus. And now in the workplace, we're still trying to get that A plus. But it doesn't necessarily feel like we know what the rubric is, we're spending a lot of extra time and energy trying to put this perfect product together, whatever that is. And that to your point can end up being more of self-sabotage. So how do you? How have you navigated that? Like, how do you protect your time, while still feeling like I'm putting forth the highest quality output?
Carrie Driscoll
So I think you hit the nail on the head when you said product, because I kind of lean on my agile experience in, in history. So I lean on that in the sense that I say, Okay, what, what is it? What are my goals? And what is the acceptance criteria for getting there? And how, so basically, how much time am I going to put into this? So if I have my goals as being I want to, you know, I want to get a raise. And in this particular case, I want to get a raise. And here are the reasons why I should get a raise. So my, my acceptance criteria was I was going to list out all of the things that I was doing that was adding value in or ROI to the organization. And then I was going to list out any of the arguments that I think might be coming up and having answers for those, right? So I was kind of trying to look at that future ball and look into the future and see what my, my, my, I would say, boss, but I didn't feel like he was a boss. He was more of a partner. But anyway, I was thinking what he might come back with, and have answers for that, but not to the point where, you know, I said, like, three, three arguments. And that was it. My limit, I didn't want to go too far down into that rabbit hole. So having really specific acceptance criteria was important to me, so that I didn't, and once I had all those things in place, then I felt really confident about going forward, putting that presentation together and having that conversation and not going overboard. And then once you feel prepared, try not to stress about right. Yes, you're excited about it. Yes, you still get butterflies but, but you know, you're ready.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I like that. Because it sounds like you're kind of creating your own rubric. Right, by deciding what are your goals? And what does success look like? As opposed to feeling like there's just this? There's this mystery expectation? Here, I'm hoping you meet.
Carrie Driscoll
Right, exactly. Yes, take control of it. And, you know, if you're the product owner of your own product, you can do that.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. And I wonder too, about, we talked a little bit about the mentorship piece, but I also worry sometimes that it feels very dangerous to ask for help sometimes. Right. And so sometimes I think the over-preparing comes from a place of, I have to think about every possible case consideration. Because if I ask a question, or you know, if I go to somebody and say I need clarification, that that might make me look like I don't actually know what I'm doing or that, you know, I'm going to be exposing myself in some way. So, so how do you how have you handle the, you know, being vulnerable and asking for help? Piece of the workplace?
Carrie Driscoll
Yeah. So that in the beginning, I very much thought I had to pretend I knew everything, right? You have to be like, you don't want to you think it's an area of weakness when you ask questions, or when you're showing that vulnerability that you don't know everything. But I've quickly learned that especially in today's world, people are learning and growing and changing so fast because we have access to so much information. So at this point, for us to think that we do know everything is arrogant, or we know more about something than the person that we're talking to. That comes off to me as arrogant and, and I don't want to be there. So Um, so I don't know everything. And I'm perfectly fine with, with asking questions, and I read Lencioni, what is, what is it, Getting Naked book as well. Which is all about that like No, no, it actually, you know, consultants used to have to be no LBL. And now today, having that coaching aspect to your role of like, the person that you're talking with, especially in a client, actually is the expert in what they're asking for, you just have to learn how to pull it out of them, and let them know that you don't have all the answers for them. Because you're not, you're not in their business on a day-to-day basis, it's their business, it's the same in this situation, you just have to be vulnerable and open yourself up. And I find that people embrace that, for the most part, it used to feel like there is a little corporate America might take advantage of that vulnerability. I don't see it as much anymore. I think it's a parent's you know, trust your gut, obviously, you want to talk to people that you can trust to know, to know that the most part, you think they're going to help you and appreciate the fact that you've opened up and you've shown that vulnerability and are willing to help. You'll find those people in mentors, you know, across the board. But there might still be a little bit out there that people that would take advantage of that. So trust your gut on that one. I think that's a good, I've been lucky.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I mean, people like that will take advantage of any, any opportunity they can, right? Because that's their own insecurities.
Carrie Driscoll
Yeah, those that are taking credit for the work that you do, and all those things, you'll, you'll see it, you'll ferret that out pretty fast, and then you're not gonna go to them and give them any kind of vulnerability. So yeah, trust is important in that.
Kim Meninger
How has, how has your experience changed now that you have your own business in terms of your own confidence as a leader? And has this made this harder for you? How, like, how has it shifted the things that you, you know, sort of worry about? Or what, what does that look like?
Carrie Driscoll
Yes. Yes, of course, I mean, so. So self-doubts right there, right? How do you can add, you know, you can do this, you can do this alone, you know, you're not alone, you have some partners to how much information do you share with your partners right now, it's very slow out there from a consulting perspective, right? Tech, Tech is, is strange in this economy today, because there still have layoffs happening all over the place. So there's a lot of vulnerable people reaching out a lot of people looking for work, and great, amazing people that bring value to organizations that have been let go, for whatever reason. So, so it's difficult. So as a new leader, I mean, it's been two, well, it's a little be three years. You know, how much of that stress and anxiety do I share with my team without, without making them anxious themselves, but also wanting to get their input, get innovative ideas, but think outside of the box? How are we going to keep moving forward here? But you know, I want them as partners. So I just asked them, you know, how do you deal with stress? And how much information do you want to share here? And so we have working agreements across the board. And that works really well, I find in any time, well, I do it pre, you know, before it happens. But anytime you have any dysfunction in a team, right, you want to talk about a working agreement. And it's usually around expectation. So I set those expectations with my team beforehand, to make sure that we're not doing anything that would be stepping on each other's toes or making people feel insecure. It doesn't mean that we don't have hard conversations or conflict ever because that's, that's not reality. It just means that we're setting ourselves up, for the most part, to have good partnership relations. And everything comes down to relationships. Did that answer your question?
Kim Meninger
You did and I'm really glad you said that because that is my inclination to is, when in doubt, talk about it.
Carrie Driscoll
Exactly. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
You know, we're just going to be making up stories and worrying and playing the what-if game and if we can just sit down and have a conversation, we can be honest with each other and come to, you know, a place that I love that you talk about, you know, these sort of what did you call them working agreements, I love the idea of just really defining what does everybody need in order to feel like they can do their best work or they can be part of this conversation in the most effective way possible. And I think we're so quick to jump into the work and we don't have to take the time to actually establish this type of trust and connection. And people will often say, Oh, I don't have time for that and thank you don't have time not to because you're spending a lot of time cleaning up the mess that happened when you don't do this. So I love that that's part of the way that you operate because I just think it creates so much more psychological safety and efficiency.
Carrie Driscoll
Yeah, I feel strongly about working agreements for any team. Absolutely. And, and to your point, you know, if you have a problem, and you bring it to your team, you're gonna find a much better solution when you're solutioning together. Again, because people are learning and have different experiences, at different rates. And, you know, it's crazy to think that you're going to be able to do all this on your own.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, absolutely. And even if you could, why it's so much it's more fun and more interesting to do, right?
Carrie Driscoll
And that's one of the biggest things I miss about working with a large organization is like, like, I saw a bunch of my, my colleagues, my previous colleagues at a at an event, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, it's like, the team's all back together. And I do have this little team, and it's awesome, and I love them. But I also miss having that more collaborative. Part of that is COVID, too, you know, but having that more collaborative team, and so we decided we're getting together, and we're just going to get together and collaborate together and things and it's okay, who cares? Who, who are where you're going, the stuff that you're talking about solutioning around things that everybody's dealing with?
Kim Meninger
That's a great tip, too. I think, especially given the volatility, a lot of people like you said, who have been laid off, or there have been certain reorg that have separated teams is you can still stay in relationship, [right] still can work for you to support each other. [Right] Is there anything else that you do to manage your own self-doubt, anything that you are consciously doing to kind of tame that voice that creeps in and inconvenient moments?
Carrie Driscoll
Yeah, so I just tried to be very aware of it. And, and when it, when it is popping up, you know, like, I, I take it for what it is, I don't automatically just dismiss, I check it to see, is there a valid reason? Am I Am I not fully prepared? Is there anything else I can do to, to make myself feel more prepared about that? And often the case is no. So, so then I'll check it. And I'll be like, Okay, I appreciate you know, but now, like, I got this, so I guess you gotta go do that whole like self, you know, talk to yourself a little bit. But know that you do that. And if you can't do that, in the beginning, you have some great friends. I like to call myself a girlfriends girlfriend, but I have some great friends that will be absolutely, yep. You know, like, let me tell you about this talk I'm coming to do and, and what do you think, you know, how do you think they're going to take it from me and like getting feedback from people that you love and respect? or I shouldn't say, well, people that you respect from a business perspective, that will give you honest feedback. It helps a lot. And they're not just saying it to say it.
Kim Meninger
Right. Yeah. And I love that awareness piece, I think that is so important is to come at it from a more analytical perspective of okay, feeling this way for a reason? What's it trying to tell me? Have I done everything that I can, right, and then once you've realized I have, just kind of have to let it go. And it's a nervousness. It's a certain, you know, I love the expression that I heard once that said, the only difference between anxiety and excitement is the story you tell yourself, right? And so a lot of times we're, we're interpreting that nervous energy as anxiety and doubt, when if we just tell our brains, I'm excited about this, I get to do this, you know, scary. But it's, it's an exciting next step in my career, right? Like, your protein is not a fact checker, it believes what you tell it.
Carrie Driscoll
Right. And it doesn't mean necessarily goes away. You know, like, someone asked me recently, did you know we did a presentation in front of about close to 50 people and someone said to you get nervous about those things still, because you've done so many of those, and you've done them for larger audiences and stuff. And I said, Oh, yeah, every single time, I get nervous, and, and he was like, Why? Why do you get nervous still, and I said, I think it's just, I'm excited. But I'm also like, how you don't know you have all these people, you don't know what's gonna get thrown at you. And it's an old thing where like, you have to be prepared for everything, but you don't. So as long as you know that you can go out there and you can tell stories. And then if you do get stuck, he could say, you know, that's a phenomenal question. I don't have the answer right off the bat, but let me have you know, your information. And I would love to get back to you on that. And that's okay.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I often say as somebody who has struggled with a lot of anxiety, prepare for what you're most afraid of because then everything else will feel manageable. And a lot of times what we're most afraid of is being asked a question we don't have the answer to and to your point, right like that. It's gonna happen. And it's not a big deal. And we live in a world where there is so much information that nobody can be expected to have all the answers.
Carrie Driscoll
Exactly, exactly. So yeah, be brave.
Kim Meninger
That's a great way to say it. Yeah, Carrie, this has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate your sharing your story and your insights, I think so many can relate to what you have shared, where can people find you, if they want to follow you, your work, learn more about you?
Carrie Driscoll
I think probably and thank you, thank you. And it's always great talking with you. I really appreciate it. But I think as far as getting in touch with me, I think the best place is LinkedIn. I do look at it all of the time. And it's a great place. So whether you want to get in touch with me from a personal perspective to talk, you know, mentor or whatever, or if you want to get in touch with me from a business perspective, and you are looking for some help with creating high-performing teams or agile or whatnot. LinkedIn, absolutely.
Kim Meninger
Perfect. And I'll make sure that your LinkedIn link is in the show notes as well. Thank you again, Carrie. I really appreciate it.
Carrie Driscoll
Thank you. It was great seeing you.