In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the workplace experience and what each of us can do to influence our environments. While it’s tempting to point the finger at others when we’re unhappy with our workplace cultures, my guest this week, Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi shares that each one of us has responsibility for the culture. Her empowering perspective allows us to recognize the options available to all of us to create better workplace cultures.
About My Guest
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi is a business psychologist, Master Certified Coach (MCC) and Founder and CEO of Strategy Meets Performance, a business consulting firm that partners with leaders of mid-sized to Fortune 500 organizations to help them create engaging, innovative, and productive cultures. Dr. Nooravi has been named “Trailblazer of the Year,” “Citizen of the Year,” and “A Voice to Listen to” for driving positive change in her community. Her new leadership book, "A Powerful Culture Starts with You" was rated as the #1 New Release in Workplace Culture and Best Seller in Business Coaching.
~
Connect with Shahrzad:
Websites: www.strategymeetsperformance.com and apowerfulculture.com
YouTube: @dr.shahrzadnooravi
~
Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Website: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Shahrzad I cannot wait to have this conversation with you. Before we jump in, I would love to invite you to introduce yourself.
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Hello, thanks for having me, Kim. My name is Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi, I'm an organizational psychologist. I work with companies to help them strengthen their cultures to make it an amazing place to work, where people want to stay and give their all.
Kim Meninger
And I know you've written a book, and you're in the process of writing another one. Can you talk a little bit about the first book?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Sure. So in my years of coaching, really talented leaders, one of the things that they would ask me time and time again about shaping company culture is tell me what to do, you know, what are the steps I should take? They the people that I work with, they have a lot of interest in management, they read a lot. And I thought, How do I break? That was such a great question, how do I break it down into just doable steps, manageable actions. And so I wrote a powerful culture starts with you, which is available in audible, softcover hardcover, on Amazon. And I have a three-approach model, it's very straightforward, the first one, and they're all acronyms. So the first one is watch it. And it's steps for how to look at your culture from a fresh set of eyes. The second one driver is a coaching model. And for each of the steps, I have questions, because most people are not going to be able to take hundreds of hours of coaching courses towards certification, but we all need to coach. So I really wanted to make it very simple to use. So that's the Drive It model. And then the third model Walk It is how you get your senior team aligned. So everyone is walking the talk, living by their values, looking at the culture. And throughout the book, I have a lot of case studies, where I'm coaching someone and you see the growth that happens and the questions I'm asking them, and then how they get to the point where they really claim their identity and their voice and then shift their culture.
Kim Meninger
So one of the things that I love about what you share is the individual responsibility that we have for culture. And this has been a theme in a lot of the discussions that I've been having lately because I think it's so easy to assume that there are these powerful forces around us that should be responsible for this that, you know, it's their job to do it. Maybe I'm pointing my finger at them and saying they're not doing a good enough job, or I am saying, I'm just going to wait for them to fix the problem. What's wrong with that?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
That well, you know, it's part of the human condition. Sometimes we wait for others to handle our problems or a problem. And we'll spend a lot of time waiting. And in the meanwhile, if we start to realize, okay, there’s somewhere in all of this, there is some place that I can make a difference, whether it's sharing your voice, whether it's talking to other people, whether it's creating a group to work on it together. And the whole thing about life is let's stop waiting. And let's start deciding we do have power.
Kim Meninger
And so you made a, an interesting comment there when you said, there are places where we can make a difference. I think part of it is that we tend to feel like who am I right? I'm part of the system. It's complicated. It's big. Who am I to have any kind of influence on this? I'm just one drop in the bucket. Right? So, so how do we really start to embrace the fact that we are more empowered than we think we are?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Yeah. Well, so if we get through week, month after month, this challenge continues. And you're seeing it and you're bothered by it. And you know that let's say it's a let's say it's a particularly particular leader in the organization, who's hurting the culture. Who's not doing the right things? You can just keep thinking who am I? And then it keeps continuing and nothing changes. Because you wait and wait and wait. Or you could decide if not me, then who? You to drive major change, or any kind of change. We have to feel ready. We have to say see that, okay. I'm really just universally upset with this. situation, I see a vision for something much better that will serve the collective that will serve everyone. And I have one small action I could take. And small actions, create movements. And so it's to know, whatever happens, you tried, you spoke up more than once you brought people together, there has to be a perseverance that comes with driving change, knowing that oftentimes people will be against it. And I'm happy to share a community project that I worked on. That was very challenging that a lot of people were against, but I use every, every skill I'd ever learned in my profession, every fiber of my being went into this project, because it was so important. So I'm happy at some point, if you'd like me to talk about that. [Yes, sure, go ahead.] So my husband and I had moved to a neighborhood that we thought was very walkable. So there's some foreshadowing there. We believe in being able to have communities where people walk to the grocery store to the coffee shops, just walkable, it's so good for you. And the night that we unpacked and went to walk to dinner, I realized there's no way to cross the street. And this is hundreds of homes on one side. And then this major thoroughfare, where there's a bike lane, two lanes a middle lane to lane. And it's supposed to be 35 miles an hour, but it's easily double that. And I realized there's no way to get across. And so we would wait in the middle for a few minutes very scary thinking someone might be on their phone. And that might be done to me. And after a week, my mom came to visit and I said just you know, hang on to my arm, we're just going to cross and we'll just go slow. And she said, Wait, what? Where's the cross light? I said, um, yeah, there isn't one right now. But it's okay, let's just go slow. And we waited in the middle for five minutes, and so scary. And then we got across the street, I had nail marks on my hands. My mom turned to me. And she said you've got to do something about this. And it was something I already knew in my heart. I knew something's wrong here. If people's lives are at risk, and they're just literally trying to have the right to cross the street. So it became a years-long project where I partnered with my neighbors with my community with two city council members who termed out and then a new one came, City Hall, the community, we were on the news, we were in the newspaper, we were doing email drives, we had a website. I mean, we had to create this change. And just so you know, 6,000 Americans a year are killed in pedestrian-related traffic accidents. And this includes people who have a light that's green who are properly crossing, right? So imagine when you don't even have that. And the vision for me, was not on my watch. Not on my watch. I cannot have any visitor or anyone who's a resident here, die because of this. And it happens a lot. It happens a lot. And even during the time we were doing this, in downtown San Diego, there was an area that they were residents were saying residents were saying you got it, this is dangerous. This is dangerous, someone got killed. And then three weeks later, they put up a light. So even in this process, I was seeing how dangerous this was and how real it was. And one of the things one day I was having a stress-cry with my dad. And he said he listened to me just talked about how challenging it was, how difficult was it he says don't give up. Don't give up, don't give up. And it gave me the fortitude to keep going. And so many people before me had tried this at all we call the city council's office, we tried to do it. But sometimes the effort needs to be sustained over a long period of time. And we celebrated small wins along the way like getting funding and then 2018 We got our pedestrian-activated cross-light.
Kim Meninger
Wow, congratulations. And I just love so many parts of that story because it would have been so easy for you to give up at so many different..
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
So many points. [Yeah] I was starting my business at that time. I am. And so I was just you're emotionally exhausted from everything it takes to keep that business alive. And then I'd have to come home at the end of the day, and I'd have my handouts printed, and then go to a community meeting and talk about it. And honestly, the last thing you want to do is go somewhere else. And some people, in the beginning, were against it and talk about it, you know, and it's, there's this pushing through this perseverance, this belief in something bigger than yourself, that helps you get through.
Kim Meninger
I think that piece is a really important point, right? The, the belief in something bigger than yourself, because you have to be motivated by something that's going to carry you through the fear, the inertia, the resistance, right? Because it isn't easy to reach that goal. And if you don't care enough, it's so much easier to just stop at one of those roadblocks along the way. And so I think that's interesting, too, when you're talking about company culture, it can be so easy to just disengage, to check out, [yes], you know, oh, well, I don't even care anymore, I'm just gonna do my job go home. I can remember I worked in high tech for over 10 years. And your example of there being a toxic leader, I worked for a toxic leader for some time, and everyone was complaining about it. And it was clear that this problem was not going away. And I have a very strong value around justice and fairness, what's right, and I finally reached a point where I said, You know what, this is just not right. This is not good for the business. It's not good for the team. And I went and talked to a very senior level executive and said, here's what's going on. And, you know, I just I, there are real implications for the business and for the team. And the problem was addressed. And I took a lot of pride in that I'm not, I'm not at all going to claim full credit for that. I'm sure I'm not the only person who had that conversation with, with them. But once again, if nobody does it, if everyone just sort of accepts that that is our fate, and there's nothing we can do about it, then what's the incentive to change that nobody has the information, there's right?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Someone has someone somewhere must begin. And it's a risk. And it takes courage, and you did it. And even if a few other people did it, it was likely worrisome. Because a lot of times these leaders can have revenge, they, you know, there could be repercussions. And there's something about deciding whatever the repercussions are, I have to do this, I'm going to document this, I'm going to speak up. And sometimes it could be around, even trying to collaborate with that leader. You know, in my second book, which is about elevating women, I have these different stories where one of the people, one of the women has a department head that she's working with, and he's very difficult and grumpy and can be rude. And she sort of coaches him along, you know, so there are times, if we can break through to someone and build a relationship that we can do it ourselves, believe it or not, and there are times you absolutely cannot. And it's an HR issue, and you just have to report it. But even in smaller things, like if you have group meetings, and you just feel like they're not productive, it's not going anywhere, to talk to some of the other people and say, let's do a reset. are we inviting the right people into this group? Is this the right amount of time allocated? Is this just a status meeting? Or are we really tapping into the collective wisdom of the group, and I don't believe in just status meetings, I think when you bring people over, you should be creating ideas, group coaching, changing a process. And I think we have oftentimes too many meetings. And that takes up so much of our time to be strategic. And I have on my book website of powerfulculture.com Different downloads. One is meeting analysis form, one is task analysis forum, where for two weeks, you write all the meetings you're in, and then go back without judging them and then go back and ask yourself, are all of these meetings necessary to have me or can I send one of my reports, and then some of the meetings you could think this seems too often I wonder if I could talk to the person running the meeting and talk about the frequency, the duration, all of that? So we can't I've done I've had clients do this and they'll save up to five hours a week. Which is exactly what you need to spend time on being strategic and looking at the big picture and taking that step back.
Kim Meninger
I think that's such an important part of this conversation too, because part of it isn't just fear of taking the risk. It is pushing the pause button long enough to be able to think differently about the way things are done because we are such creatures of habit that sometimes we just don't even question it right? Like, oh, I go to this meeting every week. That's what I do. Maybe I'm frustrated, maybe it's unproductive. But unless I actually take the time to think differently about it, like you're describing, nothing's probably going to change. And so to just be able to insert those checkpoints to, to examine things through a new lens and say, does it have to be this way? Is there another way to think about this can go a long way?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
It's about interrupting the pattern? Absolutely.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Can you say more about the new book?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Yeah, so in the new book, I am speaking to women, I'm speaking to company leaders, I'm speaking to society really, about one how far we have come if we really think about it, we've been in the workplace since the 60s in terms of the Industrial Revolution and coming into the office. And it's was made for men, by men. And we've paved our way. So a lot of great things have happened, a lot of great laws have been created. I mean, it used to be women would be fired if they were going to have babies, I mean, believe it or not, there was harassment, and there was no laws to protect women till the 70s. So a lot of laws were created. And the book has three parts. The first one is about empowerment. So how women could look at their own patterns? And we are brought up to be globally to be Harmonizers, to not rock the boat to make situations better by avoiding conflict. And it's called Good Girl Syndrome. And the shadow side of it is we are not expressed. We don't speak up for ourselves, we don't stand up for what we think is right. And the bright side of it is females have a superpower and that we connect with others. And when a female is in a room, it's different, we changed things up. And so the first part is empowerment, how to use your ability to connect to change situations that need to be changed to speak up to have a voice. And I have seven different stories where women did that. And the second part, Allyship is about how do we bring men on board. How do we bring people who don't have the experiences a female don't have the experiences of people of color immigrants? How do we explain to them why this is important? And this is not about shared power. This is about collaboration. Because shared power implies there's only this little bit of power to have. And that's not what it is. This is about abundance. And I think people don't realize that in these last few years, where we've had a big movement and awakening, and we have DEI diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives and companies, sometimes males, white males, feel like they've been excluded. And in some ways they have and in some ways, if a white male is on stage, or in front of the group talking about DEI, people will kind of say, well, what does he know? And you know, diversity is not just about race and sexual orientation. It's about disability. It's about how someone was raised. And you know, their SES, there's a lot of things and so just us judging that white male, is us not being inclusive. And so how do we bring everyone along? And one of the things I interviewed a HR consultant friend of mine, Dana Smith from Exalt Human Resources, and she said, we basically tell white men educate yourselves. We don't tell them how, you know, say Google and so part of what I'm going to do in this book, if is have resources of great books and films and museums and places where you can learn more about other people, just diverse cultures, divorce diverse genders, immigrants, women, and, and to do it in a way that you're learning on your own. And if someone says where to start, I would say anywhere, pick anything on this list and just begin and then the last one. So the first part is empowerment. The second part is Allyship. The third part is Structural Transformation and talks about what companies can do from being diverse in their hiring, and promoting and really making sure that you are debiasing the organization as much as you can, and creating inclusivity. And that's a culture, when people feel like they belong, you've created that kind of culture, and it comes with work, it doesn't happen overnight, it comes from questioning our assumptions. And deciding you want to be a place where people feel so happy they want to be there. And one of the profiles of future CEOs is that they live DEI. So this is a big call to action for all of us.
Kim Meninger
So I want to spend a little bit more time on the allyship piece for miss… for a minute because I think you bring up a really good point. And this is something that I've experienced a lot in the work that I do as well is that some of the unintended consequences of DEI initiatives is that they have created in some ways an us versus them mentality, whether that's around race, gender, etc. And I think that, at least in my experience, there are white men in particular would love to be better allies, but they don't know how they're afraid to get wrong. They, they feel like they're overstepping. Or they're, they're sort of not actually welcome into the conversation. And then there are others who feel like, why am I not getting this other type of support, right, and something's being taken away from me in some way. And that goes back to your idea of there being a fixed pie that everyone has access to so, so what are your thoughts on the best way to bring them into the conversation so that they feel not like they're there to be the savior of the other people, but more so that they're, they have a vested interest in solving this problem because we all benefit when we get to this next phase that you're describing.
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
So one of the things that we can have people do is think about different areas in their life, where there is diversity. So for example, if someone has a child who's on the spectrum, if someone has a marriage, that's mixed race, and their children are mixed race, like, all these are ways that we are diverse. And if they have a family member who has mental health issues, these are all ways that we can start looking at how others experience life, and having empathy and trying to understand how can we support them. So one is starting with what experiences they already have, had and are currently having. And to, you know, dig a little deeper in that area and learn more about that and talk to those people they already know about their experiences. So it doesn't have to start with race, or sexual orientation, it could start from where they are and what they've experienced. And then the other thing is, if someone is interested, I've shared resources, like there's articles, there's a Harvard Business Review articles about why it's important to bring white men on to DEI, which I had always thought intuitively because I think we should all be supporting it. But it goes through and talks about fears. And so I think males need a safe outlet in their coaching to talk about it. And I've had my white male clients who are great people and talented, honestly share with me, I have fears around this, I have fears that I will not have opportunities that I normally would have. And to be able to express yourself in a safe environment like that is so key when and I'm trained as a DEI coach. So I coach other coaches as well. And I meet my clients where they are and I say there's nothing you could say that is wrong or offensive. Let's talk about it. Let's make sense of it together. And so, so walking alongside the path with someone who is trained and capable is really important in this journey because there are white men who want to support this. There are white men who are frightened but want to support it. There's white men who don't understand it, and they'll say, Are we still talking about race? And sometimes being able to talk about what privilege is and how it impacts someone from the beginning compared to someone who doesn't have privilege is the eye-opener, you know, so I think it's important to create safety in this journey, and a safe nonjudgmental space to explore it, I've had clients say that their family are racists, they have very racist views. And they're upset about it. And especially the last few years that came out after, we had so many DEI initiatives after what happened to George Floyd, and I explore it with them. And, and we talked about how to show up when they go back home to, you know, wherever their family is, and be their full authentic selves, and still love that the family members and possibly be able to impact them, but be able to just manage that, you know, and so it's a very important issue. When we work on DEI, we're working on our humanity. And when we make it safe for a white male, who wants to participate, to come on the journey, I always recommend certain books to read and films to watch. Because we sometimes, we all of us, we don't know what we don't know. You know, I, there's a networking group I'm in and one of the groups is LGBTQ. And I participated recently, and I learned about different laws that are impacting transgender youth. And I would not really have known much about that. And you know, they had someone speak on it. And so anytime we stretch ourselves to go and learn in new environments, we're expanding ourselves fully. And so when we do that, we are able to be better managers, better leaders, we shape a different culture, we create more space for other people. And we create that sense of belonging. And I'm just gonna give you two very simple examples of how you could shift the workplace to create belonging, one, for example, when companies have a room for Nursing Mothers, where it's just for them. That's very important because otherwise, women are in the bathroom sitting on a toilet, you know, taking care of the humping that needs to be done. But to create a space where it's very comfortable, and it's private, that's huge. Or, for example, if you have Muslims in your workplace, and they pray three to three to five times a day, so to create a meditation area, where people can also meditate, and those who need to pray, just have a nice space to do it. So these are just very simple examples of how you could create a more meaningful experience for your employees, employee resource groups where you empower groups to get together like it could be women, African Americans, Muslim groups, Christian groups, and, and it allows people to connect with one another. And then when they're ready to invite other people to come visit for holidays, or talks or something like that.
Kim Meninger
So I love what you're saying. And I want to go back to what you talked about earlier too around diversity, because I think it is very important that we expand the definition of what diversity means. Because what, what I don't want is it to feel like it's white men, and everybody else is diverse, right? Because they are not the center of the universe upon which we decide what else is diversity, right? And also because it excludes them from the conversation. And so to really have them see themselves as a dimension of diversity.
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Exactly. Like 100%. I mean, I've met so many white men who grew up in neighborhoods that were so diverse, they can tell you everything about a particular culture and their foods and their traditions, we don't know that when we just look at someone, or what they faced with mental health issues growing up with their family members. Right? So that is a dimension of diversity. And we need to really take a step back and expand what we know. Or it could be someone who's had a great privilege life. And they have a sense that not everyone had that. And so they want to learn more. There's something great about that.
Kim Meninger
Yes. And I think the psychological safety element is so important to this conversation, too because I need to feel safe, that it's okay for me to share that part of myself to be vulnerable, and to your point to be able to ask questions without worrying that I'm going to be sort of quote-unquote, canceled, right? That I can, I can have a conversation and express my fears and I can express my needs and my concerns, and that we can all be part of the solution. And I think that's hard when you're in an environment where I always say like the if you don't have psychological safety, what you have is a lot of people motivated by self-preservation, right? And if you're motivated by self-preservation, you're not empathetic. If toward other people, you're not being collaborative, you're not, you're not being curious. You just want to protect yourself, because your fear of losing something. So I think to get to the kind of place that you're describing, request comes back to culture, right? And how do we ensure that it's okay for people to make mistakes? How do we ensure that it's okay for people to be vulnerable? And I wonder what your thoughts are on that piece of this too, especially when we talk about it from an empowerment perspective.
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Yeah, thank you. It takes a very skilled facilitator to facilitate a topic like DEI and make it safe, and create a sense of belonging for everyone in the room. And to let everyone know, listen, there's white males here, they're not responsible for the terrible things that have happened in history. Okay, let's not project the shadow of what has gone wrong in this country on them. You know, it that's like the same as when the pandemic hit, and people were being unkind to Asians, what, like, we need to take that step back. And so I think a excellent facilitator will create a space that is open and vulnerable, that lets people speak that lets them know, we're all here together. And even if there's someone who's been raised, raised with views, that are not inclusive, there's a reason for that, because this is passed on our beliefs and attitudes are passed on generation after generation. It's the air we breathe, it's the neighbors were next to it's the institutions were around, it's the government who governs where we are. So we need to understand because I had a lot of DEI workshops during COVID. And sometimes my clients would ask me, why is it that people are so comfortably racist and discriminatory against others? And there's a had a lot of these conversations where I say, let's take a step back. And imagine your parents were like that, their parents were like that their parents were like that, the neighbors, the area, the history of where you are. So it's becoming a part of your nervous system, it's becoming a part of your blueprint. And when you don't see diversity, and most people around you are thinking like that, that's the human condition, we, we just kind of immerse until we're then presented with something different. And we say, Whoa, I never thought about it this way. And so the question is how to come at this with compassion. And, and not like a forcing of, but a giving space for exploring of.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, that's a really important point. And it's, it doesn't make it any less painful. If you're on the receiving end of somebody's racism, or you know, any kind of ism or right in this context. However, it can be helpful in processing the experience, right, and sort of empowering ourselves as well because we can't control how other people show up, that's never going to happen. But we can control how we show up and how we respond, to…
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
We can’t drive out hate with hate. [Right.] Martin Luther King Jr. said that and it still stands to the end of time, you will not teach someone that racism is wrong. By being angry with them. It's if you have it in you to understand this is how they've been shaped. This is who they are today. It has nothing to do with you, even though they're saying negative things with you. So there's a part of this about self-love and self-preservation. And understanding that the only way that there's a chance to shift this person's behavior is with kindness.
Kim Meninger
Which is really hard in our polarized society today, right? Because we have such deeply entrenched camps on both sides of the aisle that people aren't talking to each other people aren't listening to each other people aren't empathizing with each other, there's this there is this very strong belief that I am right and you are wrong, right and, and you can see how that develops. And again, coming back to how we are as humans and how that can very easily take hold in any type of a system. And we're not just talking about politics, within organizations, within communities, etc. So you, just to kind of bring it back full circle to where we started with the idea of the, the empowerment piece and like, what can I do? And I loved what you said, If not me, then who? Right? It's like, what's the first step? What's the first step for, for me?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
So for example, if there's someone who has certain behaviors that are not inclusive in the workplace, a first step, if you have any relationship with the person could be to talk to the person, a next step would be to recommend that they get coaching, right? Because sometimes if people act like a boys club, and they're very exclusive in that way, a lot of times people don't know. So how do we assume the best and try to help them or get them help? And what I term culture guardians, this is when people really care about the organization and they speak up like you did, in your situation, you regarding the culture. And so I think it's really important to empower people to be culture guardians to share with them, these are our values. And, by the way, values need to be updated every few years, because as life changes, and society and industry, and strategy, but these are our values. And if any of you see people who are not listening to, to them, let's talk about it. Let's try to get everyone on board. Let's educate one another. Let's create that sense of belonging by speaking up so that we can shift the culture.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. Wow, this is so powerful Shahrzad, I really am so grateful to have the chance to have this conversation with you. And I would love to ask you, where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work?
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Sure. My website is strategy meets performance.com. And my book website of powerful culture.com has so many resources as well in terms of downloads of the different topics that I talked about.
Kim Meninger
Well, thank you for all the work that you're doing. And you're an inspiration. It's such an important place to be playing today. And so I'm very grateful to meet you and to have the chance to have this conversation and to stay connected as you move forward.
Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi
Likewise, thank you so much for your time.