How to Develop Gravitas & Boost Your Confidence

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about gravitas. Gravitas is one of those words we use but rarely define. We know it when we see it but it’s tough to pin down. This week, I’m talking with Richard Reid, a psychologist and coach, about the connection between gravitas and confidence. We sometimes think of gravitas as an innate trait when, in actuality, you can develop it. Here we talk about what gravitas looks like, why it matters and how to get there.

About My Guest

Richard has over twenty years of experience as a psychologist and coach. Originally trained as a trauma therapist, he has been involved in several high-profile cases for the City of London Police, London Underground and the Witness Protection Program. Alongside this work, he is an author, media spokesperson, coach and consultant, working with individuals and organisations to help them achieve their full potential.

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Connect with Richard:

https://www.richard-reid.com

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Richard. It is so great to have you here, and I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.

Richard Reid

Hi there, Kim, so I'm Richard. I'm a psychologist. I work with organizations and individuals. It's all around enhancing performance. So how is it that whether it's an organization or an individual, I can help them to achieve their full potential? And so often we know when we're falling short of that. So it's, it's really about bringing all those parts together to create something amazing.

Kim Meninger

So who typically comes to you like, what are the problems that they're presenting with? What are the kind of challenges that are keep, that keeping them from achieving their, their definition of successful performance?

Richard Reid

Interesting question. So it's often around our own self-limiting beliefs. So quite often, we're socialized to view ourselves in a particular way. It's not often that sort of people tell us we can't do things. It's us, on some level, telling ourselves that we can't do something. So part of my job is about helping people to unlock that. Sometimes it's around dealing with trauma. Sometimes it's about self-esteem, and it's really about getting people to test those self-imposed boundaries. Is, is it true? Where's the evidence? It's true? What happens if I try doing something slight, slightly different? Um, one of the big areas that, that comes up a lot for me is, is working with what, on the face of it, are very high-achieving people who suffer with what we call imposter syndrome. So in other words, to the outside world, they look like they're very accomplished, but for them, they feel like they're out of their depth, that people are judging them, and they're only one step away from being found out. So it's getting them to connect with what other people see and really buy into that so it becomes more authentic, more natural, and just less tiring for them.

Kim Meninger

It’s exhausting. Have speaking from experiences, and I'm curious what you see, because you mentioned high-achieving people, which to the outside world, or to those who are less familiar with imposter syndrome or maybe haven't experienced it themselves. That might seem counterintuitive. It might feel like, what are these people so doubtful they're, they're performing. What do you see in terms of common factors or experiences that these people tend to have that lead them to this type of thinking?

Richard Reid

Well, it can be a multitude of different things. I think sometimes it's the social upbringing that people have had. So sometimes people have started off in what might be sort of a low socio-economic group, but they've actually they've risen up through the ranks and done really well for themselves, but it's a part of them that's caught back in that time. It could be they've had very critical parents, and sometimes what you find is people absorb that voice even when their parents aren't around, and that voice can spur them onto great things, but it's always sitting on their shoulder. So it doesn't matter how well they do, it's never good enough. So all these sorts of things come into play, and then there are other things as well. So it's very, very common that we compare ourselves to other people. When we compare ourselves to other people, we don't tend to do that in a very fair way. So we either do it in a way where we feel very inflated, so we feel better than other people, but more often than not, we do it in a way which is comparing our perceived weaknesses to other people's perceived strengths. And obviously, we only see other people from the from the outside, we don't know what's going on for them inside. We don't know what they're carrying on, the challenges they're dealing with. So inevitably, we come away not giving ourselves a very fair opportunity to feel good about ourselves, because we're not countering that by recognizing achievements, recognizing the challenges we've overcome, recognizing what's unique about us. We're not the same as anybody else. Everybody's unique. When we buy into that, it's not that we don't aspire to do more things and be a better version of ourselves, but if we recognize our uniqueness, that gives us a firmer platform for, for great achievement.

Kim Meninger

And I wonder, because comparing ourselves to others seems to be something that's almost hardwired into us, right? It's, it's something we all do, whether we like it or not, to some extent, is there a way to do that in a more healthy or functional way, since we're doing it anyway? Is the is there a way that we can adapt that in a more, I don't know whether it's realistic or functional way?

Richard Reid

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, comparison is inevitable to some degree, because we're social animals, and a bit like you might find in a pack of dogs, for example, people want to get a sense of where they fit in. Where do they sit in the pecking order? For some people, that's a more prominent thought than for other people, but it's there. So it's how do we how do we moderate that? And having some of that with, with a degree of balance is useful, particularly we're in a quite competitive environment. But it can, it can become too much. So this is where it's really important to not only have a view of other people and but to also recognize what's, what's good about us when we look at other people, rather than doing that in a way. She's about doing ourselves down or doing other people down. It's about using that as a learning inspiration. So what are they doing that I can learn from rather than they're better than me. I'm better than them. So I think that's, that's the first thing. Yeah, I think when somebody does something better than us, using that as a growth opportunity. So they did better than me on that, but what can I learn from them? That means that next time I do this, I do it better. But the real key to this, I think, is about rather than competing with the people, it's about competing with ourselves. So day to day, how can I be a better version of me? I and that's a more realistic competition. It's one that we can have some degree of agency over. We can recognize where we are, we can learn from where we are and build on that and reflecting back on that on a daily basis. How have I improved today? What have I learned today? Even most difficult days. Gives us a sense of momentum. It makes us feel like we're growing, and when we look back at things over a period of weeks or months, we recognize that change more, whereas if we do this as an ad hoc exercise, we tend to be quite dismissive of that progress.

Kim Meninger

Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. I think those are such good points, if we can, as we look at other people, use that as a learning opportunity, as you said, if someone else is capable of doing it, how did they get there? And how can we show some curiosity and a better understanding?

Richard Reid

Absolutely, we don't, you know, I think that's a really good point about curiosity because we don't. We tend to make these snapshot judgments. They're better than me. I'm better than them. I can't do this, but it's about curiosity. What? What can I learn about myself to do this better? What can I learn from other people to do this better?

Kim Meninger

Yes, absolutely, and, and so I think too, when you talk about competing with yourself, I really love your point about us not consistently recognizing our strengths, because I think that is one of the biggest challenges with imposter syndrome. We're so quick to dismiss the positives as a fluke, or, you know, we don't notice it at all, whereas we're so tuned into everything we don't know, or every little mistake that we make, or all the ways like you're talking about, that we think other people are better than us. It's really about balancing where we're putting our attention, right?

Richard Reid

Absolutely. Otherwise, we get a very reductionist view of ourselves, don't? We drill ourselves down to a set of criteria which is not, not the true extent of any person. So it's a really unfair thing. So it's not something we would probably do to other people, but we do it to ourselves. Yeah. So one of the things that I talk with people about is how they can develop a more self-compassionate inner voice. And I often talk about the idea of each of us being like a small child on some level. And so it doesn't matter how well we get, 40-50-60-70, however old it might be, there's still a child inside of us. So how we talk to ourselves, and how we talk about ourselves to other people is really all about how we nurture or don't nurture that child. So I give the example of the of the types of parenting so that the football dads, the dad is always wagging the finger. That wasn't very good. You should have done this. You know, it's that pointing finger analogy, and sometimes that spurs us on. But actually it means that often, if we hit a ceiling, we tend to turn in ourselves, whereas the nurturing parent really has a more opportunity for growth. So it's the arm around the shoulder. It's not pretending everything's wonderful, but it's not but it's about saying, well, that that was great, but how about you think about doing this differently next time? So it's this idea of recognizing the value, but also encouraging that growth and improvement. And when we do that to ourselves, and we do that consistently, we start to see challenges and setbacks as opportunities to see it hold off, rather than something to try and avoid. And that's how we become bigger and better.

Kim Meninger

And I think that's so important too, to play that role for yourself. You said something interesting which we get sort of stuck back in the past, right? We still have, we still hear our parents, or we still hear those influential figures voices, and we're not those children anymore. We have a lot more autonomy and agency than we did in the past. So one of the things I often like to recommend to people too is because our brains are hardwired to always be on the lookout for threats, we're not going to notice the positive stuff as naturally. So [you've got to work harder. Yeah.] Yes, exactly. We need to do that intentionally. And so when we come out of a meeting and we're kicking ourselves for something we did or didn't do well, to say, Okay, but what am I proud of? What did go well? Right? To just like, very intentionally, insert a counterbalance, like you said?

Richard Reid

Absolutely, I've read somewhere I don't know if it's true. I read somewhere that it takes three positive thoughts about ourselves to counter one negative thought. So that gives you an idea at how much harder we better work at doing that.

Kim Meninger

Wow. And if you think about how much our negative thoughts outweigh our positive thoughts, to begin with…

Richard Reid

Absolutely, because it's how we're hardwired to be. It's all about, you know, from an evolutionary point of view, how we keep ourselves safe. It's focusing on the negative, but it's not great in terms of growth or having a happy and fulfilled life. So, you know, these are really things that we need to look at. And I think the other big thing for me is, I think this is the world over to some degree. But I think, you know, speaking of something as British, this is absolutely a very British thing. It's all about. Don't get too big for your station. Who do you think you are to be talking about yourself like that? So what you'll often find is people don't say much about their achievements or the compliments they get, or they do it having a compliment, they'll downplay it. Oh, it was no big deal. Or we do it internally. Oh, they wouldn't say that if they knew this. Or they're just saying that to be polite. So it absolutely is something in British society. You see it in the media, where they, they'll build people up, and then when they get to a certain stage, they'll knock them down. So I think there's a little bit of that the world over. But I think, you know, if you take sort of the average British person and compare this with an American person, American people are very more vocal and positive about achievements as a group, I think, and that that's quite alien for British people. So there's absolutely a lot that the typical British culture can learn from Americans in that respect.

Kim Meninger 

Well, I think we can learn there's probably something in the middle that…

Richard Reid

Think something in the middle is not with the truth, isn't it? Yeah.

Kim Meninger

Yeah. And one of the things I've been really excited to talk to you about is the concept of gravitas because you mentioned that before we connected. And I'd love to hear, first of all how you define it, and then second of all, how it fits into this conversation.

Richard Reid

Yeah, yeah. So gravitas, it's from the Latin it literally means weight, and essentially what it means in terms of human interactions or business interactions. It's about the weight that sits behind our actions and our comments. So we've probably all been in situations, whether it's social situation or business situations, where there are certain people in the room and when they speak or when they do something, people really take it on board, and quite often, it's because of not only because of their acumen or their wisdom is because they are deliberate and purposeful in terms of how they use the resources. So in other words, they're not the people who talk all the time. They're not the people who fill the gaps with, you know, idle chatter or throw-away comments. They're deliberate and they're purposeful, and that means that when they do say something, it's not it's not background noise. People listen because this is somebody when they say things, has a track record of, of accounting for something so very deliberate and personally what they say, but also in terms of, often how they move. So people with gravitas, for instance, when they come into a room, they're not nervous, they're not anxious, they're not flitting around, they're not rushing to get to their seats or to the buffet at the party. They take stock of what's going on, and then they make deliberate moves as to what they want to do next. So again, these are people who are demonstrating they know what they're doing. They know where they're going. And as human beings, those are the people that we gravitate towards. We all want to be around people who make us feel safe and make us feel reassured, so that they're great people to be around, and they're great people to learn from.

Kim Meninger

Well, and what you're, you're talking about, too, is really important at a time when there's a lot of uncertainty, and so people are naturally anxious to begin with, and so finding people who do operate in a calmer, more deliberate way is reassuring to a lot of us, right? It's we want to be with those people because otherwise, we feel like we're, you know, spinning.

Richard Reid

Absolutely, absolutely and you know, it's not just about those people's outward behaviors. It all starts from how they manage their internal world. So for it to be authentic gravitas. It's all about, how do you manage your emotions in any given situation? Somebody with gravitas is not going to be you know, even if they are nervous or they're angry or whatever emotion it might be, they have enough emotional intelligence to be aware of that and to manage that it doesn't spill over in terms of how they move, how they talk, they're making informed choices at any given moment.

Kim Meninger

So would you say that gravitas can be learned?

Richard Reid

Absolutely, absolutely. So I think it's fair to say some people are more naturally born to it than others, but I think quite often life experience and, and practice enables us to have to have more of it. So first of all, you know, if we're in a particular field of work, the more accomplished we become within that field of work, the more likely we are to demonstrate gravitas. But it's but it's not just about that. It is also about how we, we manage those emotions and how mindful we are. So. You know, you've probably heard about this idea of mindfulness. So it's all about mindful speaking, mindful movement, even things like when we pause. So people with gravitas are not dictated to by time. So they will take as long as they need to take to move across the room to say what they want to say, whereas most of us, we're almost grateful for the airspace, so we rush through it. And you see this often, when people try and tell a joke, they'll tell a joke because they're so nervous to tell the joke because they think they've only got limited time, the joke falls flat. So it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereas people who take their time have choices as to how they manifest.

Kim Meninger

That’s such a really good point. I heard somebody once say, own your time, and that has always stuck with me because I think that when you are showing up, rushing through your, your message, not only do you feel less confident delivering it, but other people are responding to that energy as well. And like you said, it does become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Richard Reid

Absolutely people pick up on energy. They might not come away from interaction with somebody explicitly commenting on it, but they'll come away with a felt sense of somebody. And you know, Gravis is really important, because you know, to some degree, perception is reality. If somebody comes across as being really credible, even without knowing their professional acumen, I'm more likely to put faith in them with a project with my money, whatever it might be. [Yes.] We draw all these associations between how somebody manifests and what they're capable of.

Kim Meninger

So I have a question that I don't I'm not a big proponent of the fake it till you make it model. But I wonder, can you fake it till you make it with gravitas? Because I feel like it's almost a chicken or a catch-22 right? There's that sense of, I can't, I can't have gravitas until I'm confident, but I'm not going to be confident until right?

Richard Reid

So it's a trick. It's a tricky one. I think, I think again, I think the truth lies somewhere between the two. And I think if you try and completely fake gravitas, it will be tiring, it'll be unsustainable, and it will come across as insincere to people. So for me, I talk about this idea of incremental change. So in other words, what we call graded exposure, if we're talking in therapy terms. So, you know, imagine my comfort zone is who I am naturally okay. And gravitas might be quite a distance than where I am now, or it might feel like it is. So it's, it's about making small and consistent changes to what we do, rather than I'm going to go from being this person to being all the way over here and being this person that's completely removed from who I am. And if you think about most of us as we grow up, we make these incremental changes, often without realizing we're doing it. You know, if you reflect back on who you are now compared to who you were when you were 16, you know, you'll notice there are dramatic change, and some of that is conscious choices we've made, but also it's the things that life throws at us that we have to deal with. So imagine, you know, when you start work, you don't always get to choose the environments you put into. People say, right, you've got to do this, and you might be scared, but you do it, and you become more comfortable with it, and you learn from it. So it's really about applying what is often that sort of haphazard approach to dealing with life, and trying to do that in a very sort of measured and deliberate and purposeful way. So in other words, every day, I'm setting the intention to develop my gravitas. And here are smaller, incremental things that I'm going to do to enable me to do that.

Kim Meninger

And I think that whole concept of setting is so important to this because we are moving typically at such a rapid pace that we're far more reactive than we are proactive. So much of our behavior is just a response to what's going on. It's not thoughtful, like you said, the mindfulness.

Richard Reid

Absolutely, it's driven by emotions. It's driven by external situations, and that is not gravitas. One of the things I tell people very early on when I'm teaching things like gravitas is, is exactly what we've just touched on here. It's, you know, this, one of the simplest things that you can do to start to move the dial is before you go into any given interaction, set the intention for how you want to be and the energy you want to create in that environment. What is the energy that is going to elicit the best possible response? So do I want somebody to feel calm and reassured? Do I want somebody to feel really excited? Do I want them to feel anxious so they take a particular course of action? If we just turn up, we're bringing all the emotional baggage and leakage from other situations with us, whereas if we set that intention, it's not a guarantee that we're going to achieve that, but we are more likely to achieve it if we've set our minds to it, instead of yourself at North Star, and if you're deviating from that, you're more likely to be aware and change course.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I love that, because I often say that to people too, have your values, your intentions ready beforehand, because you cannot be trusted to strategize in a stressful moment.

Richard Reid

Absolutely, absolutely. So you know, for me, that's one of the, one of the big things that that I always teach people early on, and the other one is, and again, this, it almost sounds so obvious that it's not worth saying, but it's amazing how often we forget to do it, and that is to think about your breathing. You know, in any situation, forget about all the clever strategies, and simplest and sometimes the most effective thing you can do is to manage your breathing. How often does our breathing change during the course of a day, even when we don't we go out, it's been a stressful day. How often are we busy and we're not breathing properly, and then we pause. We go, yeah. And later on the day, we don't reflect something, wow. That was a stressful situation. It was just part of the day. It disappears into the general fabric of the day. Managing that, even if it's for microseconds in between interactions, has a massive impact upon which parts of the brain we're operating from, how we manifest our body, how we deliver our message, and just the general energy that people pick up from, from us.

Kim Meninger

Well, and here's a place where I feel like, if we go back to the comparing yourself to others conversation, it can be helpful to learn from people around you too, because I often joke that, you know, if you came from a home where I come from a home with a highly anxious parent, so I didn't have great role models for cool, calm and collected. [Yep, yeah, yeah.] I think just being able to spot people who do this well and either watch them in action, or even ask them questions if try to learn from them, can be really helpful too, because we don't necessarily know what we don't know, right?

Richard Reid

Absolutely. So I'm a big fan of modeling, modeling other people you know, starting to break things down that people do and to, to learn from that is, is really, really important and even simple things, you know, forget about breathing for one moment when you're having interactions. Take a glass of water with you, because just periodically having a sip of the water allows you to reset the pace the conversation. So even if you're nervous or you're angry or whatever else, it's a natural pause in the conversation that allows you to take stock and regroup yourself and think about how often we see politicians being interviewed on the TV, and they always have a glass of water there, often, in case they get asked a tricky question, they can have a pause to think about how they want to respond rather than react, you know. Or they have those stock responses, don't they? Oh, that's a really interesting question. Let me have a think about that. And it's that seamless way of responding that buys them time to manage their internal world, to formulate what they want to put into the outside world.

Kim Meninger

Yes, I love that as a pause button, right? Just as a almost like a speed bump, it keeps you from going too fast. And the other thing, going back to what you were talking about too even just in the way that people show up is I often advise people to focus on speaking slowly because I'm a fast talker. But when I find myself in a situation where I either get nervous or I want to be I want to show up with authority, I will intentionally slow down my speech because that makes me feel more in command of the situation. It kind of helps me to manage my nervous system.

Richard Reid

Yeah, it’s massive. So yeah, I've run something called the charisma master class, and it's sort of a variation on what we spoke about earlier, with gravitas. So we talk about exactly that. We talk about shorter sentences as well. So if you look at someone like Barack Obama, a lot of his sentences are quite short, and those shorter sentences are really good in terms of managing our pace and our anxiety levels, but they're also really good in terms of allowing us to put emphasis in the right places and sentences. So for example, if you're giving a public talk, shorter sentences are, are fantastic for putting emphasis on particular words, for pausing, for looking at particular people in the audience. But the other thing you can do is to use your hands to also pace how you talk. So you know slow, methodical movements with your hands when you're talking will also inform how you use your voice. So even if you're on a telephone call and people can't see what you're doing, it will inform how your voice comes across to them. So shorter sentences, using your hands great ways of just slowing down and getting just promoting that sense of gravitas.

Kim Meninger

I think those are such great points. And I want to go specifically to the shorter sentences too, because I think this also ties into time pressure and self-doubt. If you feel like you have to prove yourself to somebody, you might be more likely to want to include a lot of details to substantiate your point, or you're getting tangled up in. Uh, you know, a lot of extraneous content that isn't really helpful. And so I, you know, I think for some people, it might sound counterintuitive, but it is such an important strategy for owning your, your presence in the room.

Richard Reid

Definitely, definitely, and I, and I've, I've seen it in lots of environments with people who are world experts in very niche subjects, where, you know, there's no argument they are the expert, but because they've got that sense of imposter syndrome, they overelaborate a point, and it's almost like they're trying to convince somebody they're right. And actually, who's going to argue? You know your stuff, nobody else does. And the other classic one. I think it's very Australian thing to do, but I've noticed last few years it's crept into UK English as well. And maybe it's in the US as well, that a lot of the time the voice goes up at the end, so I'm making a statement, but it sounds like I'm asking a question. Is that okay? What I've just said? The again, it undermines your authority.

Kim Meninger

Yes, that's a really good point. We, we often talk about that here in the US is like up speak, or it's a form of minimizing language, right? Because we've already undermined our authority in the way that we've framed the, the point.

Richard Reid

Exactly. So you're not owning what you say. You've gotta own it, and that might feel uncomfortable, but the more you hold your ground, so right? I'm not going to say anymore, the more you'll get comfortable with it, and the more that will come across as genuine, genuine authority to other people. So I think that's really important. And then the other thing I think is important is, is thinking about your choice of words as well, and the shorter your sentences are, the more you get into the habit of doing that, the more you can then start to focus on the content of sentences, almost trying to work to the point where you can say, I can justify every word that I've included in the sentence because it serves a purpose. It's not there as a filler. It's there because it serves a particular purpose. But you'll what you often see is people using words like quite so it's quite good, or I quite like it, and it's, a particularly British thing to do. You know, they say that English is the, is the language of diplomacy because you can say so many things without really committing to it. And when we say we quite like something, what does that mean? Does that mean you really like it? You like it a little bit. For me, those kind of qualifier words, it's a way of, of not owning your belief about something. So in other words, if somebody challenges you, you can, you can downplay it well, like, you know, I only quite like it. I don't really like it. Own it. Own it. You don't need those words.

Kim Meninger

Yes, and I think Own It is a great way to, to capture everything that we're talking about, right? It's to just own your message, own your words, own your intentions, to come in with a purpose.

Richard Reid

Absolutely. And then what you're doing is you're starting to develop yourself as a brand. You're not trying to fit in with what please other people. And if you look at some of the strongest brands, they're not always people that people like, but they're people that people respect. They know what you stand for. And that is an aspect to gravitate as well. And I people talk about you, they, they can describe you in a in a handful of words.

Kim Meninger

It’s a really good point too because I often have this conversation with people who are transitioning from being more of an individual contributor, where a lot of their work is dictated by others. They don't really have to take a position on something. They can establish a reputation for being reliable, and that gets them to a certain point, but after that point, they now have to be the one to put the stake in the ground. They now have to be the one who perhaps makes unpopular decisions or delivers.

Richard Reid

Absolutely you gotta step out the crowd, as we said. You've gotta own it, and you won't always get people agree. You will always get people like it, but hopefully, if you're consistent and you're competent as well, then people will respect it.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, and I think what, what you're talking about, really requires a certain amount of practice, because I loved what you talked about, the incremental change, because each time you're doing it, you're also experiencing some positive reinforcement that encourages you to keep that momentum going, and over time, you're building self-trust.

Richard Reid

Absolutely and we need to present the brain with repeated evidence that actually something is a safe course to follow, so that small, incremental change is far best than what we call flooding, where you dive in at the deep end could go well, but Nine times out of 10 it doesn't, and it traumatizes something I say, right? I'm never going there again. So small, incremental change is good, but it also means if things don't go according to plan, it's not going to be too overwhelming. And that, again, really sort of ties in this idea of the nurturing pairing when things don't go well. How can we use that to inform our learning, to improve that process next time we do rather than use it as an excuse not to do it again?

Kim Meninger

Yes, that's a really important point. And I think sometimes I think about it as almost, oh, I do this for myself as a way of keeping my own momentum building is I'll think of something as an experiment and not get too attached to the outcome. It's more of like, hey, what happens when I try this? And if it doesn't go the way I want it to, what can I tweak? What can I do differently next time?

Richard Reid

Absolutely, if you start to apply that as a general mentality to life, it will become more natural. So, you know, it's basically some of the work of Carol Dweck applying the growth mindset, yeah. So not just that went well, that was lucky. It's what can I learn from that? So even if it went well, how can I improve that even more? Or, how can I make that more consistent so you're constantly working towards higher and higher levels of excellence, rather than, you know, absolute success or failure?

Kim Meninger

Yes, that all-or-nothing, thinking that we get tracked. Yes? Yeah. Richard, this has been such a phenomenal conversation. I love the practicality of what you're saying, because this is a challenge, as I talked with you about before we hit record, that so many in this community experience. It feels out of reach. It feels often hard to put into practice. And so the action steps that you gave us are super helpful, and for anybody who's listening who wants to learn more about you or your work. Where can they find you?

Richard Reid

Well, you can find me via our website, which is www dot Richard dash Reid spell, R-E-I-D dot com.

Kim Meninger

Wonderful. I will make sure that that is in the show notes as well. And I really want to thank you for being here and also for the great work that you're doing.

Richard Reid

My pleasure. Thanks so much. Kim.