In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about people management. Whether or not you manage people today, you likely know that it’s a tough job! Not only do you have responsibility for a team of people who are relying on you but you’ve likely gotten very little training and support on how to lead them effectively. My guest this week is Cree Scott, founder and CEO of Serenity and consulting psychologist who specializes in human-centered leadership development. Here we talk about the challenges facing people leaders, how to evaluate whether or not you want to manage people and what you can do to show up more confidently in the role.
About My Guest
Dr. Cree Scott, founder and CEO of Serenity, is an esteemed consulting psychologist with over 15 years of experience specializing in human-centered leadership development through a change management lens. With a robust background in clinical psychology, consulting, and executive coaching, she excels in creating customized leadership development programs for a diverse range of industries, leveraging evidence-based practices for impactful learning and growth. Dr. Scott combines the rigor of psychology with a strengths-based approach to drive organizational change and personal breakthroughs in leadership.
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Connect with Cree:
Website: www.serenitypsyhealth.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/creescott/
LinkedIn Learning: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/facilitating-safe-authentic-communication-as-a-leader/guiding-principles-for-safe-space-conversations
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Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
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Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Cree, I'm so excited for our conversation today, I can't wait to dive in. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Dr. Cree Scott
Sure, thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m Cree Scott and I have been working as a leadership development consultant for over, gosh, like 15 years now, it seems like forever. But I started off as a clinical psychologist, and I'm still licensed as a psychologist, I got my doctorate back in 2004. And really, you know, thought in my mind that I wanted to do something different about 10 years in and decided to start, you know, looking at different options and things. And so I am now you know, focused on leadership development, I have my own business. And it's been going really, really well our focuses on leadership development workshops, in the area of human-centered leadership, as well as like DEI and, and employee well-being. And then I also do executive coaching as well.
Kim Meninger
So I just have to ask, and this is my own personal curiosity because I always wanted to be a clinical psychologist growing up, what was it that made you decide, I want to do something different? If you're willing to share that?
Dr. Cree Scott
Yeah. Thank you for asking. Yeah, I, I honestly, at that point, in my, in my life, I think when I was getting my doctorate, I was about two years, and I had realized that therapy wasn't like the thing that I love to do. And it was probably just, you know, in my, in the situation that I found myself and I was getting Oh, hi, highly acute patients, and I think it was just, I was taking on a lot for them. And for myself. And I think also, it's just that back to back, you're talking to someone, you know, it doesn't feel like it kind of lets up. So it wasn't really aligned to how I wanted to help people, it felt more like I was, you know, just on a hamster wheel with them. And I wanted to just do something more impactful. Maybe in my mind, I think that psychologists do a lot of impactful things. So I guess I'm not saying that. But it just felt like I was, you know, running at top speed all the time. So I thought about, you know, what could I be doing differently? So, when I first started, I went into forensics. And so I was doing a lot of forensic stuff with the court system. And that was a lot of, you know, fun, it was intriguing, less therapy, more assessment, expert witness things of that sort. And then when I started getting back into the therapy part of it, it just, I got burned out really quickly. So I just decided that I was like, I just want to try something different. And a consulting opportunity came along. Right when I was open to it, and, and it worked out. So I kind of just stayed in that space. But I've been able to use my psychology degree. And you know, my, my background to apply it in the workplace in ways that I think that others may not have been able to do like I think there's a lot of IO psychologists, Industrial Organizational psychologists that do some of the work that I do, but not I don't think they see things the way that I see them just because I'm bringing it through a different lens. And so I consider myself to be, you know, part unicorn in that way.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing your story too. I could go down that. You know, that path all day. But I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about, you mentioned a few areas that you're focusing on in particular, and the human-centered piece jumps out at me because that's something that's near and dear to my heart as well. And I think something that's been missing from a lot of organizations for a long time, been missing from leadership development for a long time, like, how do you see human-centered leadership? And maybe what? What's going well, and what's not going well, like? What do we need to fix right now that you're noticing?
Dr. Cree Scott
I know, gosh, are so much? Well, I think that from the very beginning. So when I think about human-centered leadership, I think about people who are managing other people and how to put the people that they're managing at the center of what they do. Because without your employees, you can't produce anything, you can't do anything. And so, they really are the heartbeat of your organization. And if you're not taking care of them, then you're likely going to have high turnover and but just, you know, a toxic workplace environment, and that's what we try to always avoid. So I think that, you know, when I think about leaders and how they got to where they are, most of the time, it's due to the fact that they were great individual contributors. And then they get these people management roles and they try to manage people the way that they manage it. Project, and it's just not the same. And then there's some times, you know, you might get some training. But it's, you know, it's maybe like once a year or something like that. And then you might, you know, happen to get some other things that come along the way. But there's not as much formalized training and on-the-job training as there used to be, I think, I think most of the time now, it's kind of like, you go figure it out, I need you to do this work. And, but I'm not going to necessarily tell you how, but I want you to come already knowing how to do this. So it's, it's been really interesting to kind of see the evolution of how learning and development plays a role. The great thing is that I do see, you know, a lot more executive coaching than when I first started in corporate America. And because at first corporate, when I was in corporate America, I think executive coaching was more geared towards those, you know, executives, and now you're starting to see it at least, you know, a little more middle management, depending on the organization that you're working with. So I just think that people need a lot more training, but also just like, the way that I don't know, after COVID, I really do feel like organizations figured out like, oh, we can do more with less resources. But let's just do that. And then they didn't, they never went back to filling resources, like I have spoken to a lot of people and my executive coaching practice. And they'll say like, oh, yeah, like, there used to be three people on my team. And now there's just one. And we're still doing the same amount of work. And oh, by the way, we're not filling those other two positions, even though they were a part of the headcount before. And so it's just been really interesting how some organizations not all have just decided that, you know, it's, we're just going to do this. And we're, we people have proven to us that they can do it. So let's just do it the way that we're doing it. Now, let's not go back. And I think that that's a really big, missed opportunity because you're burning out the people who are in those roles. And if there were three people doing the job before then at least, you know, think about the fact that there might need to still be at least three or maybe two, but not one, you can't go from three to one.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. And I gosh, there's so much to what you're saying. And I'm thinking about it in different ways from both the leader perspective and the individual, on the team's perspective, right? Because I always think about everything through the lens of the mindset that we bring into our roles. And when you think about going back to what you said earlier of many, many, many people managers being promoted to that role because they're good individual contributors. And it's seen as a reward for good individual performance as though that automatically makes them able to have an entirely different skill set and mastery. Right? Oh, congratulations, you know, the it's, it's one of the few, if only ways within organizations to get more money and to have a go on the org chart. And so the, there are a lot of people in these roles who don't want to be in them, don't have to do them. And it's such a critical role because we see all the time and studies that show people leave managers, not companies, right? And everybody's struggling because their managers don't have proper training. And so much I think about from a competence lens, and from an impostor syndrome lens of how many people want to be good leaders, but they're terrified of asking for help. They don't know what they don't know. They're they are so used to being high achievers, and now they find themselves kind of flailing and they don't know what to do about it. And I wonder if you have thoughts on, you know, if you are a people manager, maybe you've been recently promoted, maybe, you know, maybe you've never been given the support that you need to do this with confidence and feeling like you have the resources to be successful. Is there something you would recommend? They think about?
Dr. Cree Scott
Yeah, I think, you know, it depends on you know, where you are in the organization. But most organizations will have like a, you know, some type of milestone training for new managers, usually, but what I'm thinking is that what happens is you get back into your day-to-day and you focus on the work and instead of kind of focusing on how can I even make the team want to follow me and how can I get to a place of getting us to higher engagement and, and higher engagement does lead to high performance, but I try not to talk about high performance because I feel like that that has just been the focus way too much in terms of how can we get everyone to perform better, but I think that if you switch the lens a little bit to engagement, you might find that it will just automatically happen just because people are happier. So for those managers who are you know, new to this or maybe they've been doing it for a while, and they just are not getting it right. I would say, number one, be compassionate with yourself. But think about like that Platinum Rule of, you know, How do other people want to be treated, I think we're all kind of treated, you know, we all think about the golden rule, treat others the way that you want to be treated. But I think it really goes back to asking your team what they need. And looking at it from a situational leadership perspective of what do certain people need so that they can thrive and be engaged and motivated to do what they need to do. And I think that many times we focus so much on the work that we forget that there are humans doing the work. And we call them FTE ease and resources and all the things that dehumanizes the people that are working with you. And so I think that it's really important that if you're not going to get the training to at least, the very least you can do is start to ask those questions and be more focused on creating a space where people can come to you and have these human conversations that need to take place and thinking about what everyone needs from an individual perspective and what you need as well. Because you need to be able to take care of yourself before you can take care of others.
Kim Meninger
Mmhmm. That's a really important point too. And I love what you're saying about asking them what they need. Because I'm a big believer in not trying to read other people's minds, it doesn't usually go well creates a lot of anxiety, because we keep wondering, Am I doing this right? As opposed to just going to the source for the information. And everybody is different. Everybody has different communication styles. Everybody has different preferences. And so it builds confidence on both ends, if you can have an open conversation about, you know, what do you need from a manager? What do I need from you putting it all on the table? I think of it as giving each other the answers to the test. Right? And that's right. So it's not a one-and-done conversation. It's an ongoing conversation. And then if you're having it from the very beginning, it's not awkward. [That's right.] Change something or you need to address something, right? It's just a natural conversation you've been having all along?
Dr. Cree Scott
Exactly. Yeah, I think that is so important, too. You know, when I'm talking to a lot of my executive, my coaching clients that sometimes it feels like people management is like a get, you know, get in and do it, and you're and you're finished. And it's kind of like no, this is something that's that you need to set time aside for. And people are not setting the time aside because they think they can do it in, you know, at the same time that they're doing their work? And the answer is like, No, you really do have to this is another part of your job now. And so you have to set the time aside to be intentional about what you want to be doing. But also what you want to see others doing. And that's that part to me is, is what's missing is that we just think it's going to happen automatically. Or if I'm a good person, I hear people say I'm a good person. And I'm like, Well, that is not a good manager, you know, because you can be a nice person, it doesn't necessarily equate to managing a team at its, its optimal way. And it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, because you're not able to do that. But it does take a specific set of skills to do it. And I think many times we're just like, oh, well, but you know, I'm able to bring in this client, or I'm able to, you know, get this project done in this amount of time. And all of those skills are very much needed, and people will continue to get rewarded for that. And at the same time, I mean, you just things will go a lot further for you for a person if they're able to get those people skills mastered as well.
Kim Meninger
Yes. And it's funny that you say that because I think I'm a good person but I would not know the first thing about how to program something, right? Because I haven't learned that. And so it's this very, I don't know, if, if, if it's just an assumption that people automatically know how to do this, or if it's a reflection on, we don't value this as much as we value the other skills, so we're not investing them?
Dr. Cree Scott
Well, and I think also is that, you know, it's not easily measured, it's no different than DEI and why people you know, don't stick to that as much as they should, because it's not the outcomes, the return on investment is not as clear as Oh, I brought in, you know, this amount of money. And, you know, I so this amount of things, right? Like, those things are very clearly measured, whereas when you're talking about the skills that they call soft, which are actually hard skills, because if they were still soft, and so we won't be able to do them. Those are those are harder to measure but yet we do know that you know, those people who with the higher EQ, the emotional intelligence tend to do better, they're just better people leaders and so if you're naturally in that space, that's great. But for the you know, for the People who aren't, it becomes a, a space in which you really have to, you know, pay attention. And yeah, and you're right, like saying that, you know, you're, you're a good person is not enough to really, you know, take this skill that you really need to learn and build to, you know, to make sure that you're, you're doing it in a in the in a way that's going to uplift in and help others be the best version of themselves as well. So I think it's just, you know, something that we have to keep at the forefront of our minds because it's, it's not something that you automatically get rewarded for. Right, like, and so sometimes, especially if there's no performance management indicators, or measures or metrics to say, hey, you need to be doing this better. You know, people tend to say, Well, I'm getting rewarded, regardless of how I treat people. So what's the point of me doing this differently? And, and that and they just keep moving in the same direction.
Kim Meninger
Yes, unfortunately, we've seen that all too often in toxic work environments, too. If the money is coming, they don't care how you treat people, right? [Right.] And which is unfortunate, because it's very short-sighted. You lose a lot of great talent when exactly when you protect somebody who's, you know, not a good leader, but a good revenue driver or whatever it is.
Dr. Cree Scott
A rainmaker as they call them.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. Exactly. Well, and you know, what's interesting, too, is I hear a lot of people saying things like, I don't want to manage people, or I'm not sure I want to manage people. But they almost say it shamefully, like they whisper it to me, like that's something to be ashamed of. And I think part of it is because we have this societal pressure to climb the corporate ladder, so to speak, there's this sense that, oh, if I'm going to have a successful career, I have to work my way higher up the hierarchy. And there are changes to this in certain pockets, although it's not as pervasive as I'd like it to be of people being able to rise to higher levels without managing people. [That's right.] But sometimes I think about, you know, I think it's brave to say, I don't want to manage people almost in the same way. That's like, I think it's brave and honorable to say, I don't want to have kids if you don't do it, right, right. Hmm. And so I would rather invest in somebody who knows, like, Hey, I, this is not for me, and keep them out of it. Because it's not gonna be good for anybody and invest in them as strong individual contributors, and to put them into people manager roles they don’t want.
Dr. Cree Scott
And I agree with you 100%. Like, yeah, and I do know that some organizations are doing a really great job of having two different tracks of people management versus your craft, you know, and what you're really good at, so that you can continue to be the subject matter expert, but not necessarily have to focus in on managing others. And I think that that a spot on because you're right, like you should be able to move up without having to manage other people, especially if you're not good at it or not interested in learning how to do it better. So I 100% agree with you.
Kim Meninger
One of the things that comes up, though, too, is sometimes people say, I'm not sure if I want to be a people manager, and I'll ask them, alright, are you not sure? Because you don't want to do the work? Are you not sure? Because you're doubting yourself? Because for me, I would rather have somebody with self-doubt, enter a people manager role, because they care enough. versus somebody who's like, I don't know if I want to do it, because I don't want the I don't want to make the effort in doing it. And so I think there's definitely a confidence factor in the leadership. You know, worlds, right is that, like we talked about earlier, these are people who are generally high achievers, they want to feel like they're doing something impactful, they can measure their impact a lot more easily as an individual contributor. So to just sort of think through, I wonder if you have thoughts on for somebody who's on the fence, like, what are the questions they should be asking themselves? How do they determine do I want to beat do I actually want to be a leader? Or is this fear talking? Or is this like?
Dr. Cree Scott
Yeah, I would, you know, I kind of equate it back to number one, where do you get your energy and I'm not saying that introverts can't be good people, leaders, because I do think that they can, but recognizing that if you're if it's draining for you to have to interact with people on a pretty regular basis and, and putting out fires and problem solving through really human things that people experience. I think that that's like your first indicator as to whether or not you're going to want to do this because it is messy. And it can get really complex depending upon how large your team is. And it does take time like do Do you want to put the time in to do this well? Or do you just plan to, again, continue to manage the people on your team the way that you manage your projects? The other thing is, is that are you good at delegating and giving up control? Some people just aren't really good at that. And I think you can answer that question, even without managing others to as to whether or not your, your need for control is high? Or is it healthy? Or is it low? You know, all of those things? Because I think that it's really important to think about, like, what you are going to be able to help your team, you know, grow into as well, because it's not just about giving them work, but also developing their skills. And do you like to mentor? Do you like to coach other people? Again, I think you can answer those questions without currently doing it. Because it, it's, these are just questions around like, if this were given, if you were given the opportunity to do this, would you be interested and I do think that those are the things that come to mind for me when I'm thinking about people management, and just being able to just think about people as, as your collaborators versus I'm in charge, you do what I say, you know, like, people don't want to be treated like children, they want to be treated with dignity and respect. And so if you're just becoming a manager for power, I think that that's also something to really like, be honest with yourself about because that's the way that you're going to lead. And that's going to be really challenging when it comes to being able to build something together as a team versus you just kind of ordering people what to do.
Kim Meninger
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I think one of the things I hear a lot in it because I come from a tech world prior to starting my own business, is there are so many people who love the work, they're really good at the work that itself and managing people removes them from it removes them from what they love to do and what they know they do well. And so that's a really important consideration to say, Does managing people excite you and inspire you in the same way or more than doing the actual work? Because you will inevitably have to take a step back from the work itself and to your point, delegate what you enjoy doing to other people, especially to other people who haven't learned to do it the way you have, who maybe aren't as good at it as you are, is that? Are you going to be okay with that?
Dr. Cree Scott
Is that all of those things? Yeah, it's funny that you said that because that was probably one of the reasons that got me to go on my own and do and do the work that I do on my own. Because I remember thinking like, well, I like the senior manager role. But yet, I'm not able to do the work. And I really did enjoy doing the work. But I didn't even recognize, you know how much I was going to miss it until I was removed from it, you know, in a way that I wasn't able to just make some of the same decisions and things of that sort. So I do think that that's important to kind of think about is how much do you love what you do? And how much do you want to continue to do that? And is there a negotiation for you to be able to still do some of that alongside your, your team versus, you know, doing it for them? But yeah, especially if you have a new team member, and they're trying to learn, it can be frustrating. And most people are like, I'll just do it because they know how to do it. And that's not really helping your team. Not at all, because they're trying to you know, figure it out for themselves. But if you're doing it for them, then they're never going to figure it out. So again, this takes time, though. Because if you're trying to coach someone and develop them, sometimes, you know, there are truly deadlines and things of that sort. So you have to put that into the to the your framework when you're trying to you know, get your project deliverables out the door of that coaching time that it might take for someone to actually be able to get something done. It might take you two or three days, but it might take them a week.
Kim Meninger
So yeah, that's a really important point to the upfront investment in what they need in order to be successful. [Absolutely.] And then thinking about too, you had mentioned early on the diversity, equity and inclusion piece, the well-being piece. Sometimes I think leaders struggle not because of who they are, but because of the culture that they're operating in. And I think that's really important to be able to distinguish two because we take on a lot of responsibility. As, as humans obviously we see the world through our own eyes and high achievers are their own worst critics. And so, you know, I think it's really important for people to recognize when it's something I need to work on and address and when it's just not the right fit. And I, I have I have great raw material to work with, but maybe I just need to bring that somewhere else.
Dr. Cree Scott
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. That's why I think it's so important to know what your strengths are. And I don't necessarily mean strength as something that you're just good at doing. Because I'm really good at building PowerPoint decks, because I was in consulting, but it's not what I love to do. It's not what strengthens me, or energizes me. So yeah, I kind of think about strengths is like, what are the things that you can get lost in doing and time can pass, and it won't feel like anytime it's passing. And if you can align your work with your strengths, the things that you are energized by, I really do think that you'll be happier even in managing other people as well. Just because you're able to do the things that bring out the best in you. It's when we're, you know, our work is misaligned. And there's, you know, to your point, like there's organizational cultures that kind of drive some of the stuff but as much as possible to be able to get closer to that feeling of, you know, I love what I do, I love the, the discussions that we have, I love the projects that we work on things of that sort, I think you'll find that, you know, some of this stuff will just fall into place. Because many times what we don't recognize is that when you're not happy with what you're doing, or just happy in life, that it does 100% impact the way that you manage others.
Kim Meninger
Yes, you're absolutely right. And I think that's a very good point. I often recommend that people do certain energy audits from time to time, right of like, how much of my week have I spent in that really energized, enthusiastic state where I felt like I was using my strengths, and I was doing what I meant to do and versus, like, this is such a slog, it's crushing my soul, I never wanted to do this again. You can get a sense of where am I spending my time? And, and it doesn't mean that if you're not doing what you enjoy doing, and aligning with your strengths that you have to run to the nearest exit, maybe it's opportunity for our conversation.
Dr. Cree Scott
Yes. Yes, I agree. I think that conversation with your, with your leaders are, it's so important. And it should be an ongoing conversation because, you know, we're dynamic, we're going to change and our interests are going to change. And we might find that, you know, something that we didn't even know we loved is, is the very thing that we need to be doing. So I agree, like, it's really important to pay attention to your needs. When it comes to being able to manage others. Um, it's no different than parenting, like you can't be a parent on empty all the time and trying to, you know, take care of your kiddos like, you're just not going to show up as the best version of yourself.
Kim Meninger
I'm glad you said that because I do you often see the parallels between parenting and people leadership. And even going back to the idea of how good of a delegator are you if you've never been as people, you may not be clear on that. But think about it in terms of your partner and how well you're willing to let them load the dishwasher in a different way than you.
Dr. Cree Scott
You know, that's where I said that control comes in, right? Like, I've had many times just say, you know, to my daughter, like, you're not doing it the way that I would do it, but I accept this, you know, like, it just let her letting her know, like it, there's more than one way and my way doesn't have to be the only way. So it's hard, though, it's really hard sometimes when you know, especially if you're like a subject matter expert in something, and someone is completely thinking about it differently. You may be stuck and that it has to be this way. And I always you know, have my when my clients are stuck there, I asked them, you know, like, is this, you know, is it true that this is the only way that you can do this, and, you know, really helping to, um, you know, unravel the stuckness that they're experiencing of, you know, I want to see it done this way, or I want delegate because my team, I can't trust my team. These narratives, like the stories that we tell ourselves, right? Like, you have to like check back check them because our brains or our minds will tell us things that are not true, actually. But it's in a way to protect us and I and so I always say you know, when it comes to whether or not do you need to be right like check that doesn't do you have to be right in this in this case, or is it okay that there are other answers and that may be you’re, you’re right, but there are also other ways to think about it, you know, just kind of help people get out of their own ways because you're right, like the way in which we're raised and the way in which we see things. It impacts everything.
Kim Meninger
Yes, it really does. And it's, it's natural that we do that. It's an efficiency measure for our brain. [Right, right.] But it is important. And I often think about, like, if there's a way to detect friction in your life, right, like, so if things feel harder than they need to or than they have in the past, if you're bumping up against a lot of negativity or conflict, it's a good opportunity to slow down and ask yourself those questions that you're talking about, or like, is there another way to look at this situation? And is my mindset a little bit too fixed right now?
Dr. Cree Scott
Right, exactly. Yeah, I mean, we don't do that. Because we're just moving through. I know, a lot of high achievers are checked boxers, like, Oh, I did this, I did this, I did this. Okay, now moving on. Like, they don't even stop to celebrate their achievements. Like, they're just like, Alright, my checklist is done, I now have, I can move on to this other checklist. And so they're just moving. And it's just like, it's, it's heads down, I'm going to get this done. And you just forget that you have to like the whole reason that we're here. And this is gonna sound very spiritual. So I apologize if people are offended. I'm not, I'm not meaning to be religious in any way. But the whole point of us being on this earth is to experience life. And if we're just moving through with our head down to me, and just like, it's not what we're put here to do, like, you can get your goals met, and you can do all the things, but you can also do it through the lens of experiencing the world around you. And really like savoring those moments. They are, they are very, very, it's something that you kind of think about, like when you're on your deathbed, like what, you know, what do I regret and things of that sort of, but if you start to just think about that, as in your day to day, like, what do I want my day to look like? When you wake up? You know, like, just starting off with that, I think is really important. Because many times we're just heads down, we're just existing, we're just surviving. And that's not work. That's not what we were put here to do.
Kim Meninger
I love that. I think that is such an important point because I think we can learn a lot too, from our own experiences of what have we, what are our most positive memories of previous managers that we've had? Or previous colleagues, right? Where they, they just check the box task? People, right? Or were they actually caring about me and my growth and what I need? And so, yeah, I mean, we're humans, we're not robots. And I, you know, I think that whole exercise of fast-forwarding and looking back can be a really good way of pulling yourself out of the weeds and really getting that perspective that allows you to show up in greater alignment with who you want to be not just what you want to be doing.
Dr. Cree Scott
That’s right. Who do you want to be? I love that question. I asked that question of my coaching clients all the time, who do you want to be? How do you want to feel as that one too? How do you want to feel? Because I just don't think we're paying attention. And it's, it's fine. I mean, that's, that's just how life gets sometimes. But just taking just hitting the pause button is super important.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I could talk to you all day. But that's a perfect place for us to wrap up because I think that's a really inspirational point. And I'm hoping that people will walk away and ask themselves that question, too. And so if anybody wants to learn more about you and wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Dr. Cree Scott
Yes, so you can reach out on our website, www dot serenity psy, that's p-s-y health.com. And then, if you really want to get me quickly, you can just send me a DM on LinkedIn because I'm literally on LinkedIn every day.
Kim Meninger
And I'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Chris. This has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate you having it with me.
Dr. Cree Scott
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I love this conversation. I think we should have more of them. And I hope that people got something as you know, even if it's just one piece of nugget, I think, you know, it's helpful. So thank you for having me.