In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk stress and burnout. If you’re a high achiever (hint: if you’re listening to this podcast, you are), you’re likely at higher risk for stress and burnout because of the way you approach your work. My guest this week is Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse who now specializes in burnout recovery. Avery shares her personal journey as someone who understood the risk factors for burnout yet still suffered from what she refers to as her own epic burnout experience. Here we talk about the three stages of chronic stress and how to recognize them. We also talk about how to manage our energy to prevent burnout. And we talk about how to do your best work without the pressure to always be perfect.
About My Guest
Avery Thatcher is a former ICU Registered Nurse with over a decade of experience specializing in acute and chronic stress, it's impact on the body, and how to prevent or even reverse the negative health effects of stress to avoid burnout and illness. In her Flow State app, and group programs, she has been helping highly sensitive high achievers recover their energy and optimize their habits so they can elevate their impact since she started her business in 2015.
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Connect with Avery:
Website: www.thetruthaboutburnout.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Avery, I'm so excited to have the chance to talk to you, you and I talked on our own conversation, I'm excited to share our conversation with the community. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Avery Thatcher
Thank you so much, Kim, I am so excited to be here, because I am a super nerd that loves talking about stress and burnout. So I started my career as an ICU nurse back way back when we won't tell all the dates. But yeah, and I really noticed very early on in that career, the number one reason why adults found themselves in an intensive care unit where because of illnesses and diseases that could be linked to chronic stress. And I started to look at the patterns and the kind of people that were more likely to experience some of these epic stress events. And it really ties into women that are highly sensitive, high achievers, and have grown up with a little bit of emotional trauma. Because it's all like us are trying to build on and prove ourselves worthy for a time where we didn't feel that worth. So I was doing this for a while growing my business since 2013. And at the end of 2018, I myself had my very own epic burnout experience, that I was working full-time, 12-hour shift work. And literally over the night, I went from feeling okay to feel like trashy, going home and sleeping for 20 hours, 20 hours the next day, 20 hours a day after that. And I was very frustrated because I was doing everything quote unquote, right? But I still burned out. So being the super nerd that I am, went back into the research and found the missing pieces of the puzzle. And so that's really where I come at our discussions from today's looking at stress and burnout because they're both related. But often people think that burnout is a stress management issue, but it's actually an energy management issue.
Kim Meninger
Ooh, I'm excited to explore that because I think you're right. I think people use them interchangeably or, you know, we don't necessarily precisely define burnout, burnout is something pretty specific. Right? Then there's a difference between fatigue and stress and anxiety, the all of these things are kind of separate standalone things. So can you talk a little bit about what is burnout? And how do people recognize it?
Avery Thatcher
Yes, absolutely. So one of the first things that we have to do is define stress, because like I said, they're kind of connected, right? So we have a relationship between productivity and pressure, it's a productivity doesn't just mean like workplace productivity, it also means like, getting up and getting stuff done cooking yourself a healthy meal, reading a book that you enjoy. So when we don't have enough pressure, we're bored. And we're really in that like low motivation zone. But then eventually we get up into this peak flow state, where we have the right balance of pressure, we know what we want to do, and we're very productive with it, we feel like we're just like a plus check, killing it at life. And so this is where we're experiencing what's called eustress, e u s t r e s s. This is the positive stress that our body responds to the same way it responds to joy, and connection and excitement. So this is a stress that our body is very resilient to. But because lots of our sources of stress, aren't always in that like happy side of things, we start to move over into what the research is showing us are actually three stages of chronic stress. So the first stage of stress is called the stage of alarm. That's that initial like, moment where you see something dangerous running at you, you try and get yourself to safety or you fight it off. Now the freeze-or-fawn responses are due to trauma really, that, that's where those two stress responses have come from. And so we can talk about those if you like. But once we are kind of past that initial moment, a lot of our stressors don't go away, because it was designed for the animal running at us. Not inflation, crushers, sexism at work, all of these things continue to add stress. And so this moves us into the stage of resistance. And so here, our body is able to create or consume enough energy to keep up with this increased stress demand. Because if you think about your stress response, it's really there to help you fight-or-flight your way to safety. So it's going to be using more energy and sending it to the bigger muscles of your body. So when we have that happening, we need to be able to eat enough energy, or our liver can actually create some energy for us because it's a little superhero in there. And so this is why we crave high fat, high carb, pizza, ice creams, whatever because those are really quick, easy sources of energy. And so once we kind of get into that space and we can't maintain or create enough energy for the energy that we're using, this is where we move into that stage of exhaustion. And that is burnout, where we are out of energy and My favorite way to sort of explain all of this and how it all kind of fits together is to imagine that you're in a boat. And that boat has holes all around the sides, there's tons of holes and the water is pouring in. But it's okay because you have a bucket and a lifejacket. And as the water pours, then you're gonna start slowly bailing your water out, keeping it out of the boat, and you're like, This is great, it's fine, I can manage this. But then the water starts to pour in faster, and then you start to get tired, and you can't bail that bucket out as fast. And that's where you sink to the point that your life jacket catches you. And so burnout is your life jacket, it's a failsafe mechanism that keeps your body from failure. And the bucket are all of those stress management strategies that were so quick to deprioritize. So absolutely, you can do all of the yoga, meditation, mindfulness, journaling, all of those self-care things. But those are only going to make your bucket bigger, or help you feel it a little bit faster. But we need to actually look at some of those sources of stress if we really want to prevent burnout.
Kim Meninger
And so what's interesting and you know, feel free to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your own personal situation is you had a such an awareness of this right? You said I was doing everything right. So what happened? How did you get to that place for yourself?
Avery Thatcher
So the piece that I didn't know was that I was in a boat full of holes, I didn't look and see what holes were around me. And not to the degree that I needed to. So I was focused so much on that bucket that I missed the bigger piece of this is like what can I do to stop or slow the flow of different holes in my boat? And I was working at a very toxic ICU at the time, it was very unsupportive tons of politics. It was wild, how disrespectful it was amongst teams. So I had removed myself from that thinking, Oh, I'm gonna do good thing I'm going to be just working, the night shifts gonna be fine. Go to avoid all the daytime, extra people of the week. totally great. And so in doing that, absolutely, I did slow the flow of one of those holes in my boat. But I didn't actually deal with it, or see what I could do to work with that moral distress. Because especially as women, I feel like we experienced a lot more of the moral distress. And that's a really important piece of the puzzle, one that I definitely missed.
Kim Meninger
Well, I think that's a really interesting observation too because I personally, you know, having worked in some toxic environments, myself, going back to my corporate days, there was a part of me that just didn't know what I didn't know, right? And so I think, going back to the High Achiever piece, too, it's like, you have this need or pressure to perform at the highest levels at all times. And you just think the system is the system. And I don't really have any agency over that. And so I just have to figure out ways to prove myself within this system. And then, you know, as the water use, and then you start to blame yourself, like everyone around me is doing fine, at least from all appearances, right? So maybe I'm doing it wrong, maybe I need to work that much harder. And then you just accelerate that process of getting to exhaustion, right? And so I wonder what your thoughts are on the personal control, or maybe that's not the right word, but I'm just thinking, what I'm getting from you is, there's an opportunity to be more proactive rather than reactive.
Avery Thatcher
Yeah, definitely. So first thing, if you're listening to this right now, and you're just like, like, I wish I knew this earlier, hindsight to jerk, when you look back at it, it's all so much clearer. So it's okay. This is why we talk about these things so that we can start to recognize some of the signs a little bit earlier. So you don't have an epic burnout experience like me. So one of the things that we need to think about especially because again, burnout is an energy management issue is that our energy is both simple and complex. So it's simple in that we either have energy, or we don't it's like a battery on one of our devices. But it's complex, and that we actually have four different kinds of energy. And we can burn out in one or all of these different kinds. And so one of the reasons why I bring this up is because we can actually structure our day around the kind of energy levels that we have. And it doesn't matter what job you have, how little or how much control you have over your tasks, there are still things that you can do. So I'm going to break it all down and give you some examples so you can apply it. So the four different kinds of energy that we have our physical, emotional, mental, and fulfillment. So physical is your typical energy you that you think about you either have enough energy to get up and go Going and feel restored, or you need a pep talk to get off the couch to go peek. So that's kind of our physical energy, our emotional energy is our ability to hold space to deal with the moral distress of living in the world and this dumpster fire that it's in right now. And when we don't have enough emotional energy left, that's when we get irritable when we're less patient than we normally are, or when something comes out of our mouth. And we wish we could eat that right back up because we don't even know where that came from. So when we're low on emotional energy, that's kind of what that feels like. mental energy is our ability to make really good choices to be able to complex problem-solve, to be able to think outside the box and get creative. Because if you come back again, to what our stress response was designed for, it was designed to see a bear or something dangerous coming at us go and then get away or fight it off. And so in those moments, contemplating the meaning of life, solving difficult problems is not a priority. So our body actually shuts down access to our prefrontal cortex, our higher level thinking brain a little. And that makes it harder for us to do all of these things that we need good mental energy for. And so when we don't have enough mental energy, typically what this looks like is you come home at the end of the day, and someone asks you what's for dinner, and you're like, I don't know, McDonald's pizza, like I don't know, I can't even think of what we should have. So that decision fatigue, the mental fatigue, that one's really big, especially in people that are in a corporate environment, because you're forced to make so many big decisions, so often, and then all of the micro-decisions really pile up as well. And then the last one is fulfillment. So the fulfillment energy is the connection to a greater purpose, the feeling that what you're doing is making a difference. And so one of the clients that I worked with, she worked at a grocery store, she was at the customer service desk, and basically she got paid to get yelled at all day by unhappy people. And she just was really feeling drained. She's like, why am I even doing this, this feels awful. But then we came back to what fills you up or makes you feel good. And it was connecting to people and creating communities. So she decided to instead just create a community library for all of the staff. So she found a bookcase that was for free on Facebook Marketplace and a bunch of books to get it started and set it all up. And then now it became this anchor point for everyone. And that lit her up. And so when people were being angry at her and yelling at her, she's just like, well, I'm making it better for all of us. She's holding on to those moments. So it's really about finding those missing pieces of the puzzle, people can feel burnt out from a fulfillment energy perspective, if your life looks beautiful on paper, but you're miserable. You just don't feel connected. So yeah, those are the four different kinds of energy.
Kim Meninger
Thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important because I think some of them are more obvious than others. And I think the fulfillment piece in particular, also creeps in when we start telling ourselves, I should just be grateful to have a job, right?
Avery Thatcher
Yes. And like, absolutely, there are circumstances where changing jobs is not feasible, that's just not feasible at all. And for this woman that was not feasible for her either. And this is where we've got to start thinking outside the box a little. And really, when we're looking at these things, it's looking at the different kinds of energies that you have every day, and then starting to plan your day around that. So for example, another client of mine, I was actually working for this organization and chatting with all of them. They are a school that provides services to kids with diverse needs. And a lot of their in classroom support was feeling very burnt out. Because the kids have more demands, they were more active, they were more behavioral issues and different things like that, that they had to deal with. And I came in saying like, hey, so like check in with your energy levels at the beginning of the day and adjusted, adjust what you do that day to make it work. And they're like, well, we can't do that. Because the teacher decides what the activities are. The kids come in, however, they're gonna come in and like I just have to deal with it and make it work. But I'm like, okay, but if you're low on mental and emotional energy, let somebody else know that if this kid is having a tantrum, you're gonna need a little support so that you don't, and like lose your brain. Or if you're trying to implement new strategies for this kid because they're learning something new on a day that you're really low on mental and physical energy, maybe stick to the ones that they already are really successful with. Give yourself a break. So it's looking at how can you adapt things based on how your energy levels are in the morning because a lot of people talk about planning your day out on the afternoon like before you go home the next day, you're all set and ready to go, but you don't know what you're working with. So I recommend taking the 30 seconds to 60 seconds in the morning. Just Looking into seeing where you're at and really working on adjusting your day, if you don't have a lot of mental energy, working on that complex thing, maybe not a priority, go for some of the admin low-hanging stuff, that will be a lot easier to do.
Kim Meninger
And I really liked that approach too because a number of things are coming to mind for me, first of all, is not believing that everything is fixed, right? I think if you believe that everything is fixed, then you almost you give up your power, right? And it feels that much more exhausting. And also, if there is some more repeatability like you said, there are certain things that you can't predict. And maybe every day looks a little bit different. But if you have a general and I talked to people about this, when it comes to impostor syndrome and anxiety, as well as just kind of notice yourself in action for a while of like, what are the situations that generate those kinds of feelings or that kind of stress. Because if you can connect the dots, and maybe you can anticipate a little bit more effectively when you're likely to encounter that. And so even when we talk about energy, something like, I know that I hit a wall, every afternoon, around four o'clock, I'm not going to give myself like a deep thinking project at four o'clock in the afternoon, I'll set myself up for failure and is just going to add to my stress. So just when you know yourself well too then you can sort of coordinate your, your activities around that so that you feel set up for success.
Avery Thatcher
Absolutely. Awareness is always the first step, we have to know what we're standing in and over to figure out how to get out.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, absolutely. And so is there anything else about your own experience that you can share about like, how did you once you realize it, right? Oh, I'm in an epic burnout. I guess I'm wondering, are there if there are people out there that are thinking that's me? What is step one once you've already reached that?
Avery Thatcher
Yeah, so for me, my epic burnout actually led to multiple chronic illnesses and a disability. So it's literally changed my world overnight. And it was very difficult to accept because I felt like all of the me that I had in mind and the life that I had planned and what I was working towards, wasn't possible anymore, not in the way that I had seen it. So I actually did a lot of reflection and wrote some grief letters. And that's something which I would definitely recommend writing if you're thinking that you're in burnout. Write a good letter just to the version of you, you thought you'd be by now and just start letting that part go. And so what I did was actually write a grief letter to my burnout. And I started, I was just walking on the treadmill because I do some journaling on the treadmill. So I wasn't walking there, and like on a little desk, typing things out in my little journal and dislike this letting my burnout know, and the diagnosis that came from it being like, it kind of sucks that you're here. And then I started to get really angry. And then I was like, typing so hard and so loud, it was getting so aggressive, and I was just like, this sucks. And then all of a sudden, something shifted. And I realized that this part of me did not deserve hate and anger, this part of me deserve love and compassion, even though I didn't want it there. And I'd much rather not have this diagnosis being carried around with me. But instead, I said, Okay, we're going to figure this out. I'm going to take care of you. We're going to make space for that I'm going to listen to you. And like you said, one of the most important things which we can learn how to do is to listen to our body. And with those energy batteries that we talked about. My energy batteries are kind of like the old iPhone battery that just like charges and it loses it charges, it loses it. And that's just part of my disability. And so I have to make sure that I am regularly restoring energy levels throughout the day. And this is something that everyone needs to do to some degree, if you want to have consistent energy all day. And it's very possible to not have those afternoon slumps. But I think yeah, the very first part is to really become more aware of your energy levels and what your body is telling you. Another thing that we can do is a call 555 breathing. So you take five slow, deep breaths for five seconds on the inhale and five seconds on the exhale. And by doing that the research has shown that we turn off our stress response. And the reason why that matters is why we turn off our stress switch is because when we move throughout the day, constantly in stress mode, with our stress switch activated, our cortisol levels continue to climb. They just keep climbing up, up and up and up. And cortisol really, you know, gets a really bad rap is a superhero because it runs around and it shows that Oh yeah. Okay, everybody's low on energy. So it tells the brain Hey, we need more food. We need more energy, give us more stuff and Oh, cortisol is kind of that little cheerleader pep talk. And cortisol is actually our natural caffeine, it wakes us up around six or seven in the morning, normally. But when we have this increased level of stress, and when it's leading to burnout, or has led to burnout, we actually wake up more around 330 or four in the morning. And it really struggled to go back to sleep after that. And that's just because our cortisol levels are higher throughout the day. So there's so much closer to that sleep-wake threshold. So what we want to do is regularly throughout the day, turn our stress switch off with a 555 breathing because that allows our cortisol levels to rise but we turn our stress switch off and they come down a little, and then they can rise up again, as stress kicks back in and then we can turn it off, get them to settle down. So instead of it being this constant climb of cortisol, we kind of have more of a wave. And that is much more sustainable, especially as we're trying to recover enough energy to start to optimize our days to be able to really recover from burnout and prevent it from coming back.
Kim Meninger
I love the breathing approach too because I often recommend that you were talking earlier about how we can you know, our prefrontal cortex is temporarily shut down during these stress responses. And so when it comes to things like impostor syndrome, and self-doubt, I often talk to people who will say things like, I don't know what happens to me in these meetings, it's like, I can't find the words that I want to say, or I can't form a coherent thought. And, you know, that, to me is a signal of you don't feel safe, you just, you just went into fight or flight, right? And you can't strategize in those moments. And so, you know, I think the breathing as a way to try to regulate your nervous system in the moment is great, but I like what you're talking about, if I'm hearing you correctly, which is just do that periodically, throughout the day to kind of keep your baseline lower, right. So even as you're coming into a situation you're, you're in a more neutral state.
Avery Thatcher
Absolutely, absolutely. And that's so effective when we're trying to set boundaries or communicate assertively or half those difficult conversations, because if you're like, answering this phone call, and then an email comes in, and then the coworker knocks on your door, they've got this, and then this project still weighing on you. And then they run into the meeting. And then you're just like, as you get there, but if you take those 50 seconds to just slow down that breathing, you're able to feel more grounded before you get in there. And I do recommend you do it a couple of times a day, I actually recommend five, just keep with a five by five, breathing five times a day. And I know that sounds like a lot. But if you do it when you first get up in the morning, before each major meal, and then before you go to bed. It's five,
Kim Meninger
Oh, that's great. That feels much, much more achievable when you tie them to things we're already doing anyway.
Avery Thatcher
Yeah. And that's such a key for habits. And like you were saying, like, when we are stressed our imposter syndrome, our inner critic, the doubt dragon all kick in, because what we're seeing is different. It's unknown, we're trying to be somebody different, trying to change something or step up in a way that we haven't before. And our body recognizes that as danger the same as it what is an animal running at us. So really learning how to understand where all that's coming from that it is protective mechanisms just like burnout is, but then also recognizing that oh, okay, so my stress responses kicking in here something which I can do to help turn that down?
Kim Meninger
Would you recommend anything different for the emotional trauma piece that you were talking about earlier? Because I think there are a lot of people who have had some form of emotional trauma that might make them a little bit more susceptible to these types of responses. And is there anything else you would add to the mix?
Avery Thatcher
Yeah, definitely. And so trauma is really related to stress and burnout as well. But it's actually an injury to the nervous system. So when we look at that, it's like a broken arm. And so are a shoulder that keeps getting dislocated. So when we have trauma, using something like breathing, can actually activate your stress response. So if we're experiencing that, when we're trying to calm ourselves down, but it just keeps getting worse, what you might actually be doing is going out of your window of tolerance. So the window of tolerance is something that Dan Siegel, Dr. Dan Siegel, he's like a leading trauma researcher talked about. And so at the top is our holy smokes threshold where something gets too much, and it feels really stressful, that's where our fight or flight kicks in. But then we also have one at the bottom. And this one is when we get to downregulated that our bodies just like you're not aware enough, you're not gonna be able to see enough things around us you're not safe. And that's where the freeze or fawn can really kick in as well. And so, if you're experiencing like the breathing isn't helping, those kinds of things aren't helping, that he probably want to try something a little bit more of an embodied practice. And so what that can look like is somatic shaking, deep pressure or even just something like yoga. And so, somatic shaking. Humans are one of the only animals on the planet that do not process their stress in the moment through Cymatics. And if you were to see a deer narrowly avoid getting eaten in the wild, and then it was now safe. It'll stand there and shake, like shiver, shiver so strongly. And what that's doing is it's processing all of the adrenaline, the epinephrine and norepinephrine in its big muscles, allowing the stress to leave and to be cycled out. And so we can do the same thing. And so one of the ways that you can do that is, you know, those inflatable people that are outside, you use car sales, lots that are all like flapping around and stuff like that. So you start off by just shaking your hands out like you're flapping them out. And then you can get into your arms and start bouncing, you can do the standing or seated. If you want to do it a little bit more subtle, then you can just bounce your knee. And if you do that when you're nervous, that's you processing stress somatically fidgeting is also a way that we can process some stress, it's just not quite as effective. And if you're a fidget, or you'll know what I'm talking about because it never seems like quite enough. But then one of the other things that we can do is use one of our hands and then go up or forearm to squeezing gentle pressure as we move up. And by doing that, it really helps to release some of that stress and bring some more calm, you can do the same thing by squeezing your thighs as well. And so for somebody that has a history of trauma, whether that's bigger little T trauma, some of those practices might actually be more effective than you, than the breathing.
Kim Meninger
And how far in advance can you do those? Like, is that something you can do proactively too?
Avery Thatcher
Absolutely, yeah. [Yeah.] So if you're feeling again, like that kind of anxious, jittery kind of energy before going into something, shake it out. Put on the Taylor Swift song, check it out. It's all good.
Kim Meninger
I love it. This is, this is so helpful. Avery, I just love the practical nature of what you're describing, because I think we all know this. But we're stumped as to what to do about it. And a lot of times, it feels like, I don't have time to fix this. Right? As you know, there's that feeling of, I just have to get through whatever the big stress of the moment is, as if once we get to the other side, everything's gonna get better. And then there's just the next thing and the next thing, right?
Avery Thatcher
Exactly. I have yet to meet a person that it actually settles down enough for.
Kim Meninger
Right, right. And so I think it's just so important from a mindset perspective to recognize, and I appreciate you sharing your own story. And, you know, obviously, very sorry to hear about the effects of that, and just how important it is to pay attention and prioritize your own health and experience because you're not, you know, I think we think we're doing this for others. And, you know, it's selfish to take care of ourselves, when in actuality, if we want to be of service, we have to start with ourselves.
Avery Thatcher
I agree. And the thing is, though, someone, some were 10 years ago said that you need 30 minutes a day of self-care, I want to meet them and shake them and just be like, Why? Why would you set such an unrealistic expectation? Because you listening right now, if I were to say like, Hey, carve out 30 minutes a day of self-care, you'd be like, yeah, when, when. So this is where we actually need to look for pockets of time. 30 seconds before you go into the grocery store. 60 seconds before you go to your lunch break, just taking some time to do something that helps you ground and release your brain. Brain dumping is really powerful with that. 15 minutes of yoga, 60 seconds of meditation, all of these things are just as powerful as the 30 minutes, especially if we do them more consistently. So look for pockets of time, be gentle with yourself and just be creative, because it self-care doesn't have to be fancy, doesn't have to be a ritual just has to work for you.
Kim Meninger
I'm really glad you said that too. Because I think some of us, myself included are very all-or-nothing kinds of people, right? It's like oh my god, every day. I'm never going to the thinking in terms of you know, a few minutes here a few minutes there. And you're right when, when you start to think about it as I need to do 30 minutes today and then it just becomes another chore on our already overflowing to-do list.
Avery Thatcher
Exactly. And morning routines can get that way too. It's really easy for us to like look at somebody else's Miracle Morning Routine and be like, hey, so I have to get up at this time and do all of these things at this length. And it's just it just takes because our stress response, it triggers our feelings of unsafety. And it makes our body work against us. So why rely on your willpower? And instead, like, especially for morning routines, here's another little tip for somebody. Instead of thinking of what to do for your morning routine, think of how you want it to make you feel. And then that's going to change day-to-day for what actually you need to do to feel that way when you're done. But really, you're just looking at how can I make myself feel as ready to tackle my day as possible. And that gives you more flexibility. And it makes it so much more successful?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's a really good point, as opposed to looking at it like this is my job. I do it this way. There's no flexibility here at all.
Avery Thatcher
Yes, exactly. Again, just ties back to managing some of those energy batteries that we have and making sure that we're restoring things, not further draining them because we've got this new checklist to do.
Kim Meninger
I know this is obviously just scratching the surface our time together. But is there anything else that you think is really important to what we're talking about right now, like anything else that you think you want to sort of make sure everybody hears before we wrap up?
Avery Thatcher
Sure. Yeah. So if you only remember one thing from this chat, I would love it to be this, that always do your best doesn't mean always be perfect. Your best is going to change moment to moment, day to day. You're going to have more energy some days than others. So always do your best doesn't mean always be perfect. Be gentle with yourself.
Kim Meninger
That is such a powerful, great reminder for those of us who are perfectionists. So. So Avery, where can people find you? If they want more of you and your work? Where would you like them to go?
Avery Thatcher
Yeah, so you can go to my website, which is becoming avery.com. You can learn more about my story and how my name wasn't actually Avery for a very long time on my life. And then also, I have a couple of quizzes there. That could be fun. There's one that's about discovering your default self-sabotage style. And it's, of course, I don't just leave you with like, Hey, you're stuck with this. I give you strategies to figure that out as well. That's all on my website becoming avery.com.
Kim Meninger
That’s fantastic. And I will definitely put that in the show notes. And yes, we didn't get a chance to talk about your story and how you've changed your name and as part of your own evolution. And so I would definitely encourage people to, to check out your story as well. Thank you so much for being here. This has been incredibly helpful.
Avery Thatcher
Oh, I’m so glad Kim. I really appreciate being here.