In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about social competence. Many of us are uncomfortable in social situations because we struggle with self-doubt, have had negative experiences in our past or we’re not sure how to engage. But that wasn’t always the case. Most of us started out as pretty confident children who made ourselves smaller and smaller over time. My guest this week, Devon O’Brien Ash is the founder of Social Fluency. Here we talk about how to build our confidence through social competence. We also explore how small changes to our social behaviors can boost our confidence and change the way we see ourselves.
About My Guest
Growing up Devon moved constantly, he learned to adapt to change. Devon was motivated by his challenges as a young adult, including attending the notorious Columbine High School just before the tragedy, surviving cancer at a young age, and having massive reconstructive surgery on his face. He developed what would become Social Fluency at first simply as a way to gain resilience after his own adversity, eventually building it into a company that would serve thousands of corporate (YouTube, Google, Deloitte) and personal clients around the world over the past 16 years. Devon has been featured on AOC, Jordan Harbinger's podcast and Capitalism.com. He has amassed millions of view on social media. He has spoken on stages internationally for organizations like YPO and MindValley and locally, at high schools to help the next generation become socially fluent in a world that is trying to take that precious human experience away and commodify it.
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Devon, it is wonderful to have you here today. I'm excited for our conversation. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, right on. Well, thanks for having me. So my name is Devin, I run a company called Social Fluency. And I'll just give a little quick backstory, I'll try to keep it short, because, you know, no one really cares. But it's just good for context, you know, so. So growing up, I moved around a lot, and I became a very social person, I could talk to anyone I could, you know, get into situations and make friends every year, new school new start. And I was a natural. So if any of your clients or your listeners, you know, think about that, and kind of go are naturals, they just have it all figured out, it's so easy thing about naturals is they don't care that much about outcomes. And because they don't care that much about outcomes, they just behave in a much more natural way. But they're also human. And so every once in a while, they really care about outcomes, they really want that that deal to work out, or they really want to talk to that person that they have attraction for, or they really want to build a friendship with these people. And they can still blow it. Because pressure is pressure. It's just different people have different kind of capacities to handle it. So I was unnatural. The advice that I would always give people was just be yourself. Just be yourself. Just be yourself, dude, you're amazing. Just be yourself. And that, or I would say, just be confident, just be confident. It's easy, just be confident and everything will be fine. It's like yeah, but those two pieces of advice are very conflicting. And they're also pretty useless. Because I'm always myself. And I can't control whether I'm confident or not in a given situation. So that was me originally when I was a kid, giving this trying to give advice, but really kind of not knowing what I was talking about. Fast forward a few years. I'm in school, I'm in high school grade 10, I go to Columbine High School. So I wasn't there for the incident. I was in my first year of college when the incident took place. But I have younger brothers, I knew the teacher who died and I knew I sort of knew the students who did it. But I definitely knew the bullies who bullied them. And, and I was bullied by those guys, too. You know, being the new kid, I was kind of always thrown into the pit and, and I had to kind of sink or swim. And so I was quite worried for my younger brothers. And worried for humanity not to be super dramatic. But I was just like, oh, man, this is weird. And fast forward. I'm finishing up my university degree, I'm studying communication, graduate top of my class. And the day I hand in my last paper, I am diagnosed with skin cancer on my face. And this is just an audio podcast, so you can't see but I have a big scar that runs down half of my face. And 23. And this is the real world that everyone's been telling me about telling me I was going to be, you know, getting into is this real world. And I went to I went into a depression, I became really reclusive. I wouldn't, you know, talk to new people, I just kind of stay huddled up with my friend circle. And I realized like, Oh, this is like a friend circle that's going to dry up over time, you know, they're all going to go get married or, or go travel and move somewhere else. And if I, if I just watched this, you know, resource dry up, then one day, I'm just going to be alone. So I need to redevelop the skill that I used to have. And so I started looking at evolutionary psychology, I started looking at cognitive behavior therapy, I started looking at, like the seduction, arts and stuff like that, trying to find my way to the life that I had been promised, you know, by myself, in my younger life, like, Oh, it's just life is fun. And it's an adventure and, and so I, I became obsessed, and I became dedicated. And so I started integrating these things that I was reading about and learning and started applying them. And then I started working with my best friend. And this was like 16 years ago, and then we kind of cauterized it into a system called Social fluency. And, you know, we'll cover what we talk about, you know, as a training methodology, but generally it's body language, it's conversation, it's humor, it's assertiveness, It's being able to engage with strangers. And we've taught this stuff at Google, we've taught this stuff at YouTube, we've stopped taught this stuff at Deloitte. We've worked with a bunch of big tech companies down in Silicon Valley, teaching their teams how to be more social. And, and so we do corporate training, and we do, you know, working with individuals, a lot of them are singles. But a lot of them are married and just want to have agency over the social side of their life. So that's my little spiel for you.
Kim Meninger
I have a question for you, because you talked about being a natural, right, and that early part of your life being pretty smooth in terms of your ability to make these transitions as a, as a new kid, I had a similar upbringing where we moved every one to two years and so accustomed, I think of myself as a really great networker. But what's so fascinating to me about your story is it sounds like there's this big divide between, you know, pre-graduation and skin cancer, right, the part of your life that sort of sent you down a different path. And then after that, when you started to study and really think about how to get back to that. So, once you did that, did you feel like it brought you back to who you were before? Or do you think it helped you to become even different?
Devon O’Brien Ash
I love that. So first of all, I love that you had this similar experience, and then you had a similar outcome. I've worked with a lot of people who had a similar experience but the opposite outcome. And so it's always nice to find someone who has kind of like, navigated that, you know, themselves. But a lot of the people I work with, got moved around a lot, but I just became extra reclusive. And I just, you know, play video games instead. And, and I didn't make new friends. And, and I, you know, I find a core group of people and kind of like, sort of buddy up to them, and then I move again, and so I'm happy that you didn't have that experience. And then your question is beautiful. I feel… Is this a PG-13 podcast?
Kim Meninger
Oh, sure. I’ll just put an “E” on it if I have to.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Okay, perfect. I was kind of an asshole. When I was younger. I mean, I was like a good person. Like, I don't think I had ill intentions. But, you know, one of the kind of follies of the natural is that they don't recognize other people's challenges. Because when so easy, man, just be yourself. Just be confident. Like, that's kind of asshole advice, you know, and, and so I feel like losing everything. And then rebuilding it has allowed me to be way more empathetic. It's honestly, it's like, the only reason I can be a coach in this way, from my experience, is that I've seen what the other side looks like and feels like, and I know how painful it is. And I know that there's a way out. And I think that makes me you know, that much better of a coach. And I also think it just makes me a better husband, a better friend. Just a better a better man all around is that I have this level of empathy for other people's experiences. And no, no awareness of, of how bad it can be, you know, even for myself if I was to, even during the pandemic, I got, like a little socially out of practice will say, and going back out into the world, there was a definitely a feeling of like, Huh, okay, how do I do this? Again? What, what am I supposed to do? You know, like, it's just like, You got to kind of shake the cobwebs off. But yeah, I would say through this process, in a lot of ways, I found the person that I wanted to be more than the guy who got the outcomes that he wanted, I became the guy that I wanted. And, and obviously, that's an ongoing process, and I'm constantly uncovering other little things that could use my attention and work and, you know, care, but you know, I wouldn't wish the experience I had on anyone but at the same time, I kind of think it was a blessing and showed me kind of a better way.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that is a really interesting you know, silver lining for lack of a better term, right, because being a child is a pretty egocentric to begin with And I think that, you know, many of us have that like humbling moment where we realized that there's more than just our own needs and enjoyment and things like that. So I think that what you're describing is sort of the new and improved version of you with the empathy is really important.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, it really, I think it has made me a much more well-rounded person. And, you know, I'm like, I guess 23, I'm 44. Now, so I'm going to, it's going to be like a halfway point in my life pretty soon, before and after. And I, and, you know, even I look back 10 years, and I'm like, Okay, I probably could have been a bit more empathetic. In that moment. With those people with that situation, you know, there was probably, you were never done is my, my kind of playful mantra to myself around my students. You know, I don't even I call myself a teacher, and I call them students. But I just also think of myself as a student who's just got this part figured out, and can help them integrate it. But I'm always working on myself, I'm always seeing what my next kind of comfort zone boundary is, and trying to push through it. So, yeah.
Kim Meninger
And can we talk for a moment about the people you serve? Because I think this empathy piece is really important. I am pretty extroverted, pretty comfortable in new situations, as we've been talking about. So sometimes I do forget that that can be a crippling experience for other people. And so what is the what are sort of the primary pain points that the people you serve are experiencing? How is it disrupting their lives? What is it that they're struggling to do?
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, well, I mean, your podcast is aptly named. Because a lot of people, you know, well, one, they don't even get to the point where there's the imposter syndrome, because they don't put themselves in situations where they're challenged at all, or they're just outside of their comfort zone. Like the nature of being of having the imposter syndrome experience is like, Oh, I'm doing something that's a little bigger than I thought I was capable of. And now I feel like I'm unworthy. A lot of the people I work with aren't even going there. You know, they're, they're limiting themselves, in even raising their hand for the promotion. So they never have to experience impostor syndrome because they, they never put themselves in a situation where they might be an imposter. So it's, it's yeah, people holding themselves back in their career, for sure. That's a huge part. It's people holding themselves back socially, and not having the community around them, you know, there's like, we're in a time where like, the Surgeon General has said, this is a, the epidemic of our lifetime, is loneliness. And, and the unhappiness you know, graph is, is, you know, at all-time highs, and so the direct correlative to me is your social relationships, that is the key to a happy life. It's not more money. I think it's, you know, a relationship with the spirit metaphysical side, I think that's a huge part of happiness. But I'd say, you know, the, the area that I've focused on, certainly as a career is your social relationships, your friendships, your community, the people around you that hold you in high esteem. The people who, who wants to spend time with you rather than, you know, kind of like, Oh, they're coming, okay. Sure. They're like, Oh, they're coming. Oh, amazing, great. I'll be there. You know, like that, that difference is a absolute life-changing difference of how people perceive you. And so. So it's professional, it's like interpersonal, social relationships. And then it's romantic. And, you know, I believe you're married, I'm married, and it's the best with the right person is a very important little caveat in there. It's the best with the right person. I hope that everyone gets to experience the level of love that I'm experiencing. And it's my desire to you know, share that with people and help them find you know, not to sound like a fairy tale but like true love, like a true caring for each other. That is that is this deep. And so I'm particularly Like on little love bubble, we just celebrated five years married. So two days ago, thank you, thank you. But I just I want, I want people to, to experience love, to experience community to experience, esteem in their career. And the key to all of that is your ability to communicate. You know, as far as I'm concerned, there's obviously, you know, beliefs are a big part of that. But I focus on behaviors, my, my model is, focus on these behavioral changes. And by changing your behaviors, you get new feedback from your environment and getting new feedback from your environment starts to create more positive emotions. And those positive emotions kind of fortify those solid behaviors that we started with and then you're in a positive cycle of beliefs. But people often focus on beliefs, just, just work on your beliefs, if you change your beliefs, and everything else changes. And it's like, yeah, until you take that into the real world. And someone just goes, bump, and smacks you on the head and says, No, you're not allowed here. And you're like, oh, and then you lose everything. Because your beliefs were sort of like, you know, a kind of a sandcastle. And what I want to do is I want to like, you know, add a little cement mixture to that sandcastle by creating foundational skills, again, like body language, conversation, humor, assertiveness, these tangible behavioral skills, which make people feel more confident. So one of my statements, kind of things that I throw around a lot is confidence through competence. So by developing competence in your social relationships, and just the way that you show up in general, you're going to feel more confident, you're going to put yourself into more situations, and by putting yourself into more situations, you reinforce those positive behaviors and those positive beliefs. So that's kind of that's kind of my, my model there.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's so aligned with how I think about it, too, because I agree with you. I don't think I think we do people a disservice when we tell them to change their beliefs, because that suggests that you could just do all of this kind of inner work, and suddenly, you're gonna go out into the world feeling more confident, whereas I'm a big believer that confidence follows action, right? You test your reaction first, you do the scary behaviors that, you know, we're gonna get you to a better place, and then your brain catches up.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, yeah, confidence is like the reward for doing the scary thing when you weren't sure about it. I honestly, I love that you say that. It's like it is a disservice. And the reason it's such a disservice, is because it's easy to sell. It's so easy to sell, hey, you know, what, just change your beliefs. You know, what, are you worried about going out there? And don't worry about that change your beliefs, let's spend the next six months, you know, sitting on this couch, thinking about this talking about this, you know, ruminating and you know, we'll figure this thing out. And you read another book, and you watch another video? And no, no, no, no, that's just not true. It's just not true. If you want to live in a fantasy world, it's true. Sure, if you want to just sit on the couch and daydream Sure. But if you want to go experience, the joy of being alive, it requires you getting out into that. Scary but magical real world. So yeah, I love the total alignment there for us.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And, you know, you're, you're making me think too about well, particularly on the worksite, although certainly, the relationships we have throughout our lives are just, just sort of central to our emotional health to you know, every aspect of our well-being. But when I think about sometimes in the workplace is particularly for perfectionist, high achievers, people who maybe are a little bit more introverted, I don't want to diagnose anybody, but I'm just thinking like, you know, from what I've seen, there are a lot of people who would love to believe that if they just go into their workplace and work really hard and keep their heads down, that that's going to get them to where they want to go. Whereas for me, I've always been a believer that relationships are the key to career success, not just because they open doors that wouldn't otherwise be open for you. But because you feel more confident when you feel like you know, the people around you. If you're constantly in a room of strangers, you're always going to feel a little bit intimidated, a little bit uncertain about how people are going to behave. And so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about where you see the gap sometimes is is the source of the challenge or the pain for many of the people that you work with? Personality is it that they've had bad experiences in the has like what keeps them from doing the kinds of things that we're talking about?
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, I'd say, bad experiences in the past is probably the number one thing. Yeah, you know, we're all, we're all unique snowflakes. And, and so a snowflake is a bit of a term these days. Yeah. So we're all unique butterflies. We're all just doing our own, you know, special thing, we all have our own special thing. So I think, as you said, like, it's not a one-size-fits-all, but I'd say, you know, people's history is going to determine their competence and their ability to take certain action steps. And you said, Is it their personality? You know, there's probably something to that for some people. But what I find is that people who, you know, raise their hand and say, Hey, I'd like to work with you, or I'd like to, you know, learn more about this stuff. They're generally people who have an attitude of, you know, growth mindset, and a belief that nothing is set in stone. And everything is malleable. And everything is changeable with the right guidance and the right practical steps. And so I think, okay, so a couple things. One, I think it hasn't happened for a lot of people, because they, they just didn't even know it was possible. And so, you know, listening to a podcast like this, or, you know, reading a particular book, might it, you know, I kind of poo-pooed on reading another book. But sometimes reading a book is the thing that kind of like shake something and makes you go, Oh, wait, hmm. And then you Google something, and then you find this and then you find that and then you sign up to work with a coach who can actually take you through these steps. And, and so in that way, I think a book can change your life, I just don't think a book alone can change your life. A book is kind of like the key that opens the door that takes you into this kingdom, where you have to go explore, and you know, it's a whole thing. But a book might be the first step. So I think a lot of people just don't even think, Oh, I didn't even know it was possible to change. I just thought I am who I am. And that's it. And people treat me the way they do. And that's it. And that's just how it's meant to be. And it's like, yeah, well, until you change it. And then some people, you know, have had bad experiences, they maybe were raised in a certain way that has created, you know, a series of habitual patterns in the way that they show up. And they're just reinforcing that over and over and over. And, you know, you meet people who sounds kind of mean, but they're just not very likable. You're just like, you're just not that likable. They're just, they're either super bland, or a little bit abrasive in the wrong way. And so, you know, those people never know that they're those people. So you know, don't worry, it's not you listener. But, but the thing is, you have to just recognize the proofs in the pudding. If you've got a world where people are turning away from you, and you're getting more noes and you're getting yeses, then the likelihood is, you might be one of those people or have like at least a soussan of that person. So those people when they kind of hit rock bottom, or they have like a shocking event, they get divorced, they get fired from a job, they thought they were killing it, because they weren't a culture fit or something like that. Those people sometimes reach out. And, and then it's a matter of, you know, let's say someone's in often the key to this is humor. Humor, I think is one of the most elusive. Not underrated, because I think a lot of people recognize that man, if you got a good sense of humor, it's so amazing. You can just like open doors you just didn't even know existed. But most people don't think that they can develop a sense of humor. They're like, Oh, they're just funny. They're not and it's just a different brain chemistry. But it's not. It's just a, it's a, it's a puzzle. And if you understand the puzzle, then you can kind of fit these pieces together. So we teach something called high-status humor. So there's low-status humor, where you're making fun of yourself all the time. And that's kind of signifying insecurity and, like low self-esteem. And then there's high-status humor, which is you're making fun of yourself about half the time and you're making fun of other people, the environment, politics, religion, half the time. So you're still making fun of yourself because if you You're just making fun of other people, you'd be an asshole, you'd just be, you know, you just be mean. But if you are making fun of other people, what you're communicating is, I'm not scared of you, I'm not worried about you perceiving me in the wrong way because honestly, I'm cool, it's fine. And I make fun of myself a little bit, it is myself, I can laugh at jokes when they come back at me. And it just shows that I don't take things too seriously. And I'm just having a good time. And that combination is incredibly attractive. So if you're boring, and you add this incredibly attractive, if you're a little abrasive, and you add this, you can get because abrasive people, you know, they're more likely to set boundaries, they're more likely to, to kind of push their way through things, which is, in a lot of ways, great leadership. But if they're unlikable, and you add some humor into that, then suddenly they're incredibly likeable. And they're getting shit done at the same time. So.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and one of the things that I think about you just said, not taking yourself too seriously, when I think about humor, I don't think of myself as particularly funny. But I think of myself as someone who appreciates fun. So I, if I'm in a room with other people, I can appreciate other people's sense of humor, or I can contribute to it because I don't want because I like a more light-burning type of setting. And I think sometimes when we're too in our own heads, right, if we're, if we're listening to that inner critic, if we're worried about what we're going to say next, if we're worried about what's going to happen in the next meeting, we're not present enough to be engaged in a conversation where we're having fun, or we're connecting with other people.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, exactly. In fact, that's one of the, the, it's almost like a survival mechanism. When we feel anxiety, we go into tunnel vision, you know, we focus on okay, there's a tiger chasing me, I need to focus on that, that this is not a good time to survey the you know, the surroundings and see if there's berries and stuff to eat. No, this is a tiger. Same thing applies when you know, a bus is coming down the road, and we're trying to run across and we drop something, and we'll switch it on. But when you're in a social, social situation, the focused attention, all that does is increase the tension, and make the thing that we're anxious about more, you know, it's just, it just gets worse. So what a big part of what we teach is like a loose focus. So we have to train ourselves to loosen our focus, to see opportunities to hear opportunities. And then to be able to craft something, and then deliver it. So it's observe, craft and deliver. And so that process, will we get people to do in the training is like, just focused on observation. For this week, you're just observing, just observing, if you want to do voice notes, or you know, write something in your journal, great, just observe five times a day, try to get something, okay. Now craft it, when you observe it, think about how you might deliver it as like a kind of a funny awareness that you're seeing. And the beautiful thing about humor is it only really becomes real, when you share it. You know, that's the, that's the point where humor becomes like, active, is when you share it with the person next to you. So you might see something funny and go. And then you walk away. But if you see something funny, and you say, Hey, do you see that, and then they laugh. And then you laugh. Now humors kind of like, activated. So being able to stay loose, communicates, I've been here before, you know, and I've been here before, communicates confidence. It communicates self-esteem, it communicates. I'm not an imposter, you know, to throw in the context of this podcast, I'm not an impostor. I've been here before. I'm not a tourist. I've been here before. And so when you can develop these things, you know, step by step, then over time, you have a series of tools that you can access, different types of humor, and know when to be assertive when to actually set a boundary with someone versus when to defuse the tension. And to be like, Yeah, you know, it's not that big of a deal. Let's just laugh it off. And there's different times for different kind of levels of engagement, different types of engagement. Yeah, I'm not sure if I answered that question. I just went on a tangent.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, no, no, no, this is really helpful. Because now what you're making me think about too, when you said I've been here before, is one of the things that I often say is we, we owe it to ourselves to pay attention to when we're showing up. Like we're a guest in someone else's house, right, because when you show up as a guest in someone else's house, you're deferring to them on where you sit, and you're waiting for them to offer you a drink. And it's a very, you're not relaxed and feeling like I mean, certainly there may be houses that we go to where we're more relaxed than others. But you know, somebody you're meeting for the first time. So in meetings, if you're showing up as a guest in someone else's home, that you're waiting for someone to invite you into the conversation instead of you joining the conversation. And so, I think that, you know, when you talk about that whole idea of I've been here before, there's an element of I belong in this room, right? It's not like a, I didn't just suddenly stumble into this space.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's such a beautiful metaphor to like, being a guest versus being a host. And it's like, a guest. A guest is Yeah, kind of like, Oh, where do I Where do I Where should I sit? You know, is this the shoes on shoes off house? Like, what's the situation there? Whereas a host is like, Hey, let me take your jacket. Hey, how are you doing? Yeah, shoes off would be great. Thank you so much. Cool. And then there's this attitude of like, leadership, you know, it's like this magnanimous, like, I love being a host in, in, like, you know, when I host parties, or when, you know, host events or whatever, I love that. But I also just love you know, I'm at a coffee shop. And there's a person behind me and I'm like, you looking at this? You know, pastry said over here, what do you think what's going on? What's, what's happening in your mind? Don't worry, I won't order it. If you, if you say you want to call that blueberry muffin, like, I just engage with people as if, you know, this is my coffee shop. And I'm, you know, just waiting for my coffee, though. So that is something Yeah, one of my students refer to it as like being the mayor, you know, you're the mayor of this town. So you're walking around town, and you're like, how's your day going? All right, you keep at it, keep at it, you know, like, you have maybe a little bit of delusion, if you're just walking around, like, you're the mayor, but, but there's like, there's a subtle version of that, that it's incredibly attractive, and really fun to be engaged with, and a fun person to be, you know, like I've lived in, I'm in Vancouver, BC, and I've lived here for 20 years or so. And a little bit less, something like that, though. And I, I love it. And I lived in one neighborhood Kitts Kitsilano, which is kind of like the little beach town area of the city. And, and I felt like the I kind of I, so some of my friends and definitely me refer to me as like the king of kids, because I would walk around, and every single time I go for a walk, I'd be you know, saying hi to little old ladies, I'd be running into friends, you know, planning, grabbing dinner with someone later that night. And like it was just like, whenever I'd have guests in town, and we just go for a walk down the beach. I just always run into people and, and that just becomes you know, with, with true social fluency that just becomes your life. Your, your neighborhood becomes your, your kingdom. And beings like truly socially fluent is like the skeleton key to the city, it can get you into any door, it can create opportunities for you everywhere you go. And you know, it is the it is the water that we're all swimming in is this social thing. So yeah, it's a key ingredient for just a generally good life.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I know when you talk about the, the mayor, right? I think that's such a great thing for people listening who maybe are feeling a little bit intimidated by doing something like this in their work environment, it seems to me that a great practice ground is the outer world where you can be at the Starbucks or wherever you are looking at the pastries, and just practice there when nothing like you're never going to see these people again, most likely, like what have you got to lose? And so to just look for those opportunities in really low-stakes settings on an elevator in a random location, right? And then, like we talked about earlier, once you take those actions and you get the positive reinforcement, you're going to be more likely to want to do them in other settings.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, absolutely. Generally, what I recommend is for my students would be very low-risk, hellos, good mornings in your neighborhood. If you're going to do higher risk things like let's say, you know expressing that you think someone's attractive or that you'd like their outfit or, or something like that. I generally recommend starting in neighborhoods that aren't your own, so that the likelihood of running into that person again is lower. And but I really love that over time you develop this, this really cozy neighborhood where all the people, you know, you run into people, and you just have that feeling of like, oh yeah. And there's something profoundly rewarding on like an evolutionary level, to feeling like you have community. And the feeling like they've done studies, they've shown that the, the number one precursor to having a long life is your social relationships. And it's not even your like, partner. So it wouldn't be your husband, or my wife, it would be the person that is the barista. It's how I engage with people that are outside of my inner circle. So that's the highest correlative with longevity, is how you interact with the kind of outside world. So, you know, literally developing social confidence. Your life depends on it, or at least, like an extra 10 years of life depends on it. And I'm not sure if it's 10 or five, what, what is it but it's certainly not insignificant, if you want to have a couple extra years with your grandchildren. And you want to, you know, enjoy this world a little bit longer. Being socially connected, and feeling like you have community and relationships is, it's key.
Kim Meninger
That is a really great motivator for doing some of the work that we're talking about. But I also think about how there's obviously a spectrum. But for all the reasons that you've talked about before to humans, we need community, we get easily triggered our fight or flight response kicks in, in different situations. So many of us are going about our workdays or our everyday lives feeling some degree of insecurity. And I think that if we choose to do some of the things that you're talking about, not only does it benefit us, but we are of service to other people too, because we make other people feel more comfortable, right? And I think, yeah, never feel more confident than when we feel like we are of service to something that is more than ourselves, and so…
Devon O’Brien Ash
Beautiful. Yeah, it's totally true. One of the main things that in the initial, let's say, three weeks to a month of the training that my students go through, it's gonna make someone's day, just go make someone's day, you know, just be that little moment of, you know, sparkle in their day, where they're just like, Oh, that was nice. You know, it was like 30 seconds, it was a quick interaction, it was just a quick compliment, just seeing someone and then walking away. And then you just kind of one you kind of give that to someone with, without anything expected in return, but to you create what I call the social butterfly effect, which is that person feels empowered to go do the same thing to another person, because they're like, oh, yeah, that was one, totally normal. And two, felt awesome. So why wouldn't I do more of that? I've found that if I'm in a coffee shop, it'll be totally quiet. You know, there's like, it's full, it's filled. But it's just people working and doing their thing. And then I'll strike up a conversation with someone, we'll have a little laugh, and we'll get back to work. And then three or four other conversations around us happen. And that's because people want to be social. And they just got the okay. [Yeah] You know, someone said, That's fine in this environment, you're good. And then now they're doing it. And so, you know, be that person who's that little butterfly flapping their wings, as they're moving through life and see what kind of social tornadoes and hurricanes, you know, come out the other side.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I'm also, I think there's a lot of social benefit to what you're talking about. But I'm also somebody who likes that challenge. And I find it fun to just experiment, see what would happen if I just start talking to this person over here? Just for the fun of it to see so, you know, there's lots of different people listening who feel comfortable with different of the ideas that we've talked about, but find your own way. You know, it doesn't have to be one. There's, like you said at the beginning, right, there's no one size fits all. So to [definitely] find a way to break in and then you can evolve it and adapt it over time.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's the key. But do something. The biggest mistake people make is waiting for the right thing to come along or the right opportunity. You know, this is something that a lot of the students that I work with, they're not necessarily huge action takers, so they've been waiting and waiting and waiting In for the right opportunity rating waiting for the, the perfect window and when that perfect window comes, they know they're going to be ready. And it's like, Ah, no, it's one, it's never perfect, and you're never ready. So you better just get started. And, and so taking some small action today, whenever this gets released, take some small action today. And just do something that's slightly outside of your comfort zone. And don't go too far going too far as a mistake. Because you get, you know, you have a bad time. And then you go back to your comfort zone and your comfort zone is all cozy. And so you're like, Oh, well, I should just stay here, this is great. And you get positively reinforced for getting back in your comfort zone. So what I rather is you just get just outside of your comfort zone. And then by choice, get back into your comfort zone, and then get out of your comfort zone. And then by choice get back into your comfort zone, then out of your comfort zone and by choice and what you do over time as you just expand that that zone. And what once was uncomfortable is just mildly uncomfortable now. And what was, was mildly uncomfortable is, is fine. And that's the that's the vision. I love that.
Kim Meninger
I love that. Yeah, expanding your comfort zone. So now more there's just more that feels comfortable to you. Or less before.
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Wide World that way.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And my goodness. Devon, I could talk to you all afternoon. I feel like it
Devon O’Brien Ash
I feel like it. Yeah. Well, I know Joe Rogan length podcast. Hang out, do some DMT. Crazy show that is Hello.
Kim Meninger
And yeah. So I know, there is so much more to your work than you know, we have you had the chance to touch on that. And so where can people find you if they want more?
Devon O’Brien Ash
Yeah, great. Um, so I put together a program. That is a free training called small talk. Social fluency presents small talk. And it's a I originally put it together as a paid course. And then I decided I wanted to just give it away, I was like, Well, you know, this is a good promotional tool and gives people a chance to check out my stuff. So it's designed as a paid training, but then I decided to just kind of make it for make it free for now. And so that is that social fluency.com. And people can, can find it's got a specific thing and social fluency.com/small Talk dash exclusive or something like that, but, but either way, I'm sure you can just add that to the show notes. I can send that to you. But, but perfect. But, but social fluency.com is my website. And, and so if they're looking to become more, you know, and the thing is, this is an important kind of message for people to understand. It's not about becoming Captain confidence and the loudest voice in the room and super extroverted, you know, yeah, it's not that it's a quiet confidence is a really powerful thing that you can develop through understanding how the social realm works on like a theoretical level, and then going out and applying small little things and realizing that within you, there is a, a social person, because every one of us is a social person, you look at a kid who's like four or five, and they hold eye contact with people, they set boundaries with people, they laugh really loud, they speak really loud, they take up physical space, they do all these things that are kind of like a lot of adults would look at as another adult doing it and go, Wow, they're so confident. It's like, Yeah, you were that kid at one point. So we over time, sort of changed the way that we show up to protect ourselves to kind of make ourselves smaller. And so with social fluency, and the work that you're doing, I'm sure as well, you get to expand, expand that and you get to come back to that inner child who is playful and curious and wants to explore and wants to make friends. And because, you know you want to, you know, you know you want to, you just don't have the skills and then it feels like there's like this force field around you that you can't get through or people just kind of turn away from you with, with a little bit of training, that can all change. So that that would be my, my little final hurrah, pitch.
Kim Meninger
I'm so glad you said that because I do think about that often as a parent and you know, just in general about how we were once confident people and we can affect there and so I think that's such an inspiration One Note to wrap up on and thank you so much Devin for having this conversation with me I will definitely put that link and you know others into the show notes where people can find you and just thank you for the work you're doing too,
Devon O’Brien Ash
Pleasure. Thanks for having me.