In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about what happens when we put everyone else’s needs above our own. If you’re living your life or managing your career on someone else’s terms, eventually it’s going to catch up with you. My guest this week, Jen Schwytzer, is a life coach who shares her journey from social work in a hospital setting to coaching others to manage stress and overwhelm. Jen shares how putting herself last led to burnout and loss of love for the work she did and how changing her career empowered her to prioritize herself and her family. We also explore steps you can take to start putting yourself first, even if it feels scary and uncomfortable to do so.
About My Guest
Jen Schwytzer is a certified Life Coach and launched KINDfulness Coaching to help professionals ditch chronic stress and overwhelm and establish calm, productive order in life and business. Jen has 17 years of experience as a social worker in both the medical and mental health arena which allows her to bring a unique experience to her coaching practice. Jen has won the Award for Excellence in Outstanding Social Work from the University of Rochester Medical Center and continues to provide mental health education through partnerships with American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Jen, I am so looking forward to this conversation. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, thank you so much, Kim, for having me. I really appreciate it. My name is Jen and I am a social worker and a coach. And I founded my own company called mindfulness coaching. It's all about being kind to yourself. I think a lot of times we, I say we, as in women, are putting ourselves last and not always taking care of ourselves and struggling with overwhelm. And those are things that I focus on. And, I transitioned my career from social work to coaching about two years ago, after I went through some of my own anxiety, stress, and burnout. And that led me into some personal development and into the coaching world. So I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, my pleasure. I'm really grateful that you're here. And if you're open to it, would you be willing to share just a little bit more about your own personal journey? Because I think that that's probably similar to what a lot of people are experiencing right now.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because I think that a lot of people had like life transitions during COVID. And that was, for me, very much what happened as well. I've been a social worker for about 18 years, and I worked a lot in the medical and mental health fields, just doing a lot all the time. And, you know, I found myself very much going through the motions every day just kind of sticking to the rules, playing by everyone else's kind of terms, and really found myself in a place where I wasn't enjoying what I was doing as much. And I just felt like there was something missing something that was just not there. For me, I lost the love of what I was supposed to love. And for me, that kind of sparked a turning point for me, where I tried to figure out, okay, what is missing? What do I need? What's going to make me happy and bring me joy? And so, you know, I went through the, the, you know, the doubts and the burnout, and the just feeling like something was missing. i It's hard to put a put a word on it, but it's just like that feeling that something's supposed to be there. That's not there. And I think as women, we oftentimes experienced that, because we are putting everyone else first and always on the backburner and, and not always, you know, identifying what it is that isn't there for us.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's really well said, I love so much of what you said about sticking to the rules and playing on other people's terms. Because I think that's very common for so many of us for a number of reasons, I think part partly, or maybe mostly because of the way we're socialized, right, we're to be obedient. As children to follow the rules, we're not encouraged to color outside the lines. And so we're always trying to do our best and, and, you know, make everybody else happy. And then on top of that, when you describe being a social worker, where you're taking care of others, there's also that responsibility in your case, you know, very directly, but in many people's cases, it's like, I have a responsibility to others. And so we're giving and giving and giving and not necessarily recognizing once that has run dry, like something's got.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, and oftentimes, you don't realize until you're like, in the moment, you're never like, Oh, this is coming and I should be prepared for it. You're always like, oh, shoot, this is here. I'm, I'm struggling now. And, but I do think like that idea, I'm somebody who, you know, I thought coaching was really good for me because I'm somebody who likes to challenge. I like to challenge people, I like to challenge myself, and push outside of comfort zones. And when you're in the corporate world, or you're in a company or an agency where, you know, there might be some strict guidelines or rules, like that's not that's like frowned upon. And so, you know, it was hard for me to feel like I couldn't be challenged and, you know, stay in my own box and do what I'm supposed to do. Like, for me, that just wasn't me. And I felt like I was kind of stuck.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, yeah. And when you talk about the missing piece, which I think is so important, and something that when we have experienced it, we know it we making baby can't put our finger on it, but we know Yeah. How did you know whether and maybe this is a question that even that would be hard to answer, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are how do you know if that is a reflection of a problem? That means you have to change something bigger or that is just Yeah, please. Right. Like I think, yeah, it was scary to think about making a change. And so it's hurt so hard to come to terms with that place of like, okay, I've reached the end of the road where I am.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, I think that for me, you know, once I recognized that it was impacting my happiness. For me, it was like, Okay, I'm ready to make that change. So maybe it doesn't impact so many other things down the road. But I need to make this change for me. And I need to, I'm recognizing that something isn't there or something isn't right. And I want to make that change. Because I'm ready to feel like a little bit different or a little bit happier, or bring back more things that bring me joy. And so for me, it was very much like, I want to, I'm ready to make that change for me.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. And as you're saying that it's making me think about personal relationships, right, like we've been in a romantic relationship. Well, most of us, at some point, have been in a romantic relationship where we're like, yeah, there's something missing here. But we're afraid to let it go. Because what if there isn't something better on the other side? And so some of it, I think, is having faith that there that there is more than what you're experiencing right now.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, and that's such a good point, too. And I'll tell a lot of people like, I think trusting your gut is sometimes one of the most like decisive pieces of information you can have. Because if you're, and there's like, I don't even know if there's scientific information on it or not. But I feel like you know, a lot of times, you might not be able to pinpoint, but your gut is telling you like, something's not there, or something's wrong or something could be different. And so to kind of trust your gut and recognize, like, you know, what, maybe grass isn't greener on the other side, but I know that I have the ability to control something about this. That doesn't feel right.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you brought up that trusting your gut. Because one thing that I have found myself working on over the years because I've had a lifelong anxiety disorder, is knowing the difference between when it's my gut talking, and when it's my fight or flight response.
Jen Schwytzer
And it's such a good point, because when we struggle with anxiety, it's like, our brain is telling us so many different things. And it's like, oh, gosh, what do I listen to? What do I try and shut out? And, you know, what do I run from? And what do I, you know, fly to, and it's so hard to kind of calm those voices. And I think sometimes just like that self-talk that you do with yourself, like, Okay, let me think through this rationally, let me think about the facts in this situation, what do I know to be true or true? And how can I formulate that best action item moving forward? And sometimes it's just about talking yourself through some of those hard moments, because we're our best cheerleader, we're our best advocate. And, and, you know, we have a lot to say.
Kim Meninger
I like that. You're right. And, and I have certainly found that to be helpful, too. If you stay in that place of the sky is falling, and everything is, you know, gonna go wrong, that there isn't a way to problem solve from there. And so to really take it out to the level of what's the action, what's one thing I can do? What's the thing I can control? Yep, it brings you into a more empowered place.
Jen Schwytzer
Absolutely, absolutely. There's, there's a model that I use a lot. It's from The Life Coach School. And it talks about how your feelings and your thoughts really impact the results that you have. And so going to like starting to think about the results that you want, and changing your thoughts and feelings to ensure that you get what you're the desired outcome. And so, you know, I think that that very much goes back to what we're telling ourselves and, and the messages that we're giving, and how we can control our thoughts and feelings to make sure that we get the results that we want. It just takes time and practice. Exactly. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
And I'm curious, going back to your story, was there a defining moment for you or was it kind of a slow burn and you were just to work? You know, what, how did you? How did you get to the point where like, Okay, I'm, I'm out.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, so Well, it's, it's, it's an interesting story, that's for sure. So, you know, I'm working in the hospital field for, like I said, almost 17 years of my career. And actually, during COVID, my husband had a pretty critical medical issue that brought him into the hospital for some time. And during that time, there was, I felt, and I don't know if it was there or not, but I felt a lot of pressure towards my employer to return or make sure like loose ends were tied up. And at that moment, for me, it was like, this is not important to me, what's important to me is my husband, our family, and taking care of that first. And so for me, it was very much that it was a like a reprioritization. For me, like I was like, my work is does not define me, my family defines me. And I have to figure out how to put that back at the forefront. And so that moment for me, I found myself doing a lot of personal development, because I recognized that I hadn't been taking care of myself. And without taking care of me, I could not help my husband through a pretty significant time in our relationship in our marriage. And so I wanted to be stronger for our family. And so that kind of led me into my coaching. I remember the day he got out of the hospital, and I said, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on me, and I really want to be a life coach. And he was like, okay, like, let's do it. And what does that mean?
Kim Meninger
Oh, that's great, though, that he was immediately supportive. Yeah. So what's different now, how is your life different at this point than it was back then?
Jen Schwytzer
My family comes first. And that is, first and foremost, what is important to me, I have worked really hard to provide a balance that works for me. And, you know, when we think about work, life balance, it's different for everybody. So when I think about work-life balance, it's, you know, I can get our little guy on and off the bus every day, I can make sure, I just volunteered this afternoon at his book fair. And so for me, it's about making sure that what's the most important to me, comes first. And in all of that, I'm taking care of me. So I'm trying to live a, the healthiest lifestyle that I can, I'm not always great at it. And I don't always make the best choices. But I know getting outside and getting some fresh air is it means the world to me, and I know that walking my dog is important. And some days the gym happens. And some days it doesn't. And I'm okay with that, you know, I don't live on somebody else's terms, I create my own priorities. And I, I work around what's most important to me and still continue to make a living that supports me and my family. So that's kind of the shift for me is taking care of me so that I can help take care of my family best.
Kim Meninger
And I feel like that's the ideal situation is not, not being on somebody else's terms. Right. And, and I love that you say it don't always do it perfectly. That's really important. Just being even in a position to be more intentional around the choices that you make. And one of the things that I'm thinking about is not everyone's going to do what we did and go out and start our own businesses, right? So when we think about it in the context of people who are continuing to work in organizations where they have a boss, and they have a team that's demanding their attention, what are some of the things you think about, in terms of like, incrementally helping people move in this direction?
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah. So you know, I still, and I agree, I just had a conversation with someone earlier today, it's like, well, things are going bad, it doesn't mean you can just quit your job. It's like, okay, we have to figure out how to make this work for you. And so it's working around an already busy schedule, like, you know, so maybe identifying small gaps in the day where you can, you know, take your lunch outside, or, you know, take a little walk around the building that you're in making sure that you're prioritizing what's important to you. For me that was very much like health and fitness and you know, those pieces, so if that's important for somebody else, you know, figuring out how to incorporate that into your already busy day. How can I make this work for me in the schedule that I have? And then I think the biggest thing is looking at you know, your confidence, and building that confidence so that you can help set healthy boundaries in your life, in your career, with your time with the people that you surround yourself have with that is probably one of the biggest things I work with is boundaries? And how do you bring in the energy you want to reflect? And how do you surround yourself with those people that are going to support you, you and your day-to-day and uplift you when you're having a bad day? Or just like, you know, vent with you when you need a vent session? Like how do you find those people? And how do you attract that, that energy that you're looking for? And I think boundaries is a big part of that.
Kim Meninger
Can we talk a little bit more about boundary setting? Because I think that is something that is so hard, I feel like there's and I would add myself to this group, there are so many people out there, we're like, yeah, I know, I should be doing that. But I'm not doing it. And I'm not doing it for a reason. I think part of it is that we make assumptions about what will happen to us or to our relationships if we start doing that. And so I wonder what, what's like the first step what's…
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, I think those are really, really good points. And that's why too, I mentioned confidence, because we need the confidence to like, know, we have to stop those spiraling, anxious thoughts about the assumptions that we're making, and think back and do that self-talk of, you know, is this something that's going to be helpful to me? Is this what I want to do, and to have the confidence that we are making the best decision for us in the moment? And so I think competence is a huge part of that. And, you know, sometimes those assumptions are true. So I don't want to say like, get away from those assumptions, because sometimes you're gonna set boundaries, and people aren't gonna like them, and you could have a falling out. And that might happen. So I don't want to say get rid of the assumptions. Because it's, it's, I mean, it's a valid concern. But I think, you know, that confidence goes, so, so far, you know, we all get into that people-pleasing mentality where we want to make everybody happy. And, again, that's putting us on the back burner. What's making us happy? What's, you know, what is it that we want for ourselves? And, you know, I, I tell a lot of my clients that it's okay to be selfish. It's something that we have a really hard time doing. And to think about, like, Okay, if I set this boundary, what am I getting in return? What am I getting for me? And so just to think about, like, the ability to be selfish, and in moments is okay.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that that's a really important point, too because I am a big believer in finding the intersection between someone else's needs and your own. And I think that when you talk about not setting boundaries, or, you know, just sort of giving and not getting anything in return all the time, if you really do stop and objectively think about that, like why would someone, why would everyone else's needs be more important than yours? Sort of think about that, logically, it does. But I think we're so afraid of upsetting other people or damaging the relationship in some way. And so I think it's not about suddenly going from people pleaser to steamroller.
Jen Schwytzer
People very, like, whoa, I'm gonna stay away.
Kim Meninger
Unfortunately, I think that's, that's what tends to happen is if you deny your own needs for so long, eventually, you just break down and you know, right, but instead, it's about okay, how can I meet your needs? And my own? At this?
Jen Schwytzer
Yes. Yes. And I love that. And the, the idea of, yes, I can do that. And or, Yes, I can help you with that. But maybe it's after, you know, I do this, this or this, or, you know, it's thinking about ways to still be obviously a good friend, a good colleague, and, you know, not to put all your work off on somebody else. But to figure out like, am I meeting my own needs in in the meantime? Or am I saying yes to something and then all of the stuff that I was supposed to do or family time or my own to-do list? That's getting thrown to the back burner, and then that's creating that stress and anxiety and, you know, mostly probably going to lead to that, that burnout stage, which is where we don't want anybody to be.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I'm also thinking as you're talking about, how oftentimes we don't even clarify what the other person's expectations are. We just that they want it yesterday? And then, you know, we have to drop everything and prioritize. Before even doing anything, it's worth stopping and getting a sense of what does what, what is this other person actually asking?
Jen Schwytzer
Right? You know, an analogy I like to use is like when somebody texts you and they're like, Hey, can you, you know, go out to dinner tomorrow? You don't do an automatic text back, you stop and you think, okay, what is on my schedule tomorrow? Let me look at my schedule. Does this fit in with what I'm doing? If somebody asks you something at work, like that's okay to do like, the idea of, oh, that's, you know, a great idea. Let me get back to you. Let me check out my schedule. Let me check out even if it's just a moment for you to process, like, Okay, if I say yes to this, what might I be saying no to? Or is there something that might be getting pushed, you know, behind, because I'm agreeing to help in another way. So just the idea of taking that step back and pausing before you automatically respond is so important.
Kim Meninger
I think that should be rule number one. Never say yes, immediately. [Yes.] So you're not coming from a place of intention. You're coming from a place of reflex.
Jen Schwytzer
Exactly. Exactly. I love that. I love that say, yeah.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think it's reasonable people. And it's not to, not to suggest that there aren't unreasonable people around us. But reasonable people will be perfectly fine with us saying, I want to make sure that if I commit to this, that I can deliver on what I'm committed to. So let me moments to evaluate how that fits into my schedule.
Jen Schwytzer
And you want to be able to provide and produce like really quality work? And if you're saying yes, and like, oh, shoot, like how am I going to, you know, fit this in. And I'm feel like, I'm gonna have to rush through this to get it done. Like, you're probably not producing the quality work that you want to be putting out there. So thinking about that as well, like, you know, what does this mean for me in my professionalism, like, am I compromising anything here?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, exactly. Because if you see it, that's how I think about it, too, is like, if you say yes to often, eventually the system breaks, eventually, you either end up burning out, or you start making mistakes because you just can't handle it, you reach the point. It's no longer it's no longer sustainable.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, I used to be one of those employees, too, that, you know, I would think like, okay, the place is gonna burn down, if I'm not here, like, nobody can do the work that I'm doing. And I'm so important now, like, the place will be okay. And, you know, people will fill in and you know, your job will still be there. And to think that, you know, I think someone once told me like, you are not that important. I was like, oh, and then I was like, Well, yeah, you're probably right.
Kim Meninger
I know, it's true. It's kind of humbling, but at the same time, it's liberating to saying, I'll figure it out. If you know if, if I need, if I can't be here, they're, they're gonna find a way to make it…
Jen Schwytzer
Exactly, yeah, that's sometimes a hard pill to swallow. Because you want to think you're like, you know, you're like, not replaceable. And, but they are.
Kim Meninger
That's right. And I also think that if we do some of this incrementally, chances are people aren't even going to notice.
Jen Schwytzer
You're so right. Because I think sometimes people ask or say things and they're expecting you to say no, or they're expected, like, and you're like, Oh, well, I have to say yes. But they're, they're like, oh, wow, yeah, you can do that. I you know, I figured you were so busy. So yes, I think that, you know, the expectation that we put on other people, like you were saying, like, we don't even know what their expectations are. And to, you know, one clarify that and think about, you know, if I take small steps to start to improve some of these things, like, things could actually look a lot different for me, and I might find a little bit more of that balance. You know, it's been almost two and a half years since I started, you know, my own personal development stuff, and I'm still trying to figure things out, I'm still testing out some things. So, you know, it's not a quick change. It's, you know, trial and error, unfortunately, it's just that, you know, you're gonna find what works for you and what works for some isn't going to work for others and, and you find ways to just kind of increase that, that confidence and joy and happiness in your life.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I like the trial and error piece because I do think that it is an experiment. And I think if we think of it as an experiment, it relieves some of the pressure because we are especially those of us who are perfectionists too. It's like we want to do perfectly all the time, but if we can just say I'm just gonna of what will happen if well, but if I said no, oh, yeah.
Jen Schwytzer
Thinking about what's the worst-case scenario here, you know, but I, you know, I think it's just so like, it's our own, like kind of reflection on that. And I love the word you use that perfectionism. Like, well, I have to get it right. And I have to figure out, you know, what, what works for her, that should work for me. But it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't, you know, everyone's very different. And that's the important part of like, what are your strengths? Like, what's already working for you? And how do we like build on?
Kim Meninger
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I'm also thinking, going back to what you were talking about, of eventually reaching the point where you decided this is not the right place for me anymore, is that when you start setting boundaries or taking care of yourself, let's say, standing up for yourself, that if the response to that is consistently negative, I think of it as data, right? It's data that tells you, okay, maybe this isn't the right place for me, maybe this isn't a place where I can be my best self and do my best.
Jen Schwytzer
Absolutely. And I think that you have to give, you have to give yourself the opportunity to try. I think that a lot of people just like, you know, are like, Okay, this isn't working, but they haven't taken these little steps to see like, Okay, let me change how I'm kind of interacting, and let me change how I'm viewing this situation, to see if I can make it better. And so I think that you are giving yourself that opportunity to see what you can do on your own because we have the ability to, you know, do really great work in an environment that's going to support like, really great professionals.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And if you're not doing the work, you're likely just going to repeat the that's like…
Jen Schwytzer Yes, and you know, those people that are like, well, this workplace stunk in this workplace. At some point, you're gonna have to, like, look back and be like, Wow, was it me?
Kim Meninger
That's right, what's the common denominator there?
Jen Schwytzer
Right, right, and you just got it, you've got to put in the work. And if you put in the work, and you're like, this still isn't working, like you feel like you've at least given it a fair shot, and you've given it everything you had to try and make it work.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. And you also develop skills that you can take with you wherever you go.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, absolutely. Like thinking about what you learned and what you gained, like, you know, you might have gained the ability to like, handle conflict or have difficult conversations. And those are all things that you're going to need later in life anyways.
Kim Meninger
That's right. That's right, they will serve you well, no matter where you are. Is there anything else that you talk to your clients about? That we haven't touched on?
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, you know, so I really focus on the ability to be kind to yourself. And I know, throughout this conversation, we've kind of hinted at it a little bit and talked about it, but I think it's so crucial, like the ability to be kind to yourself, take care of you. Like, it really does have that domino effect on all of your life, your relationships, your career. It has to start with you. And I think that just putting that out there. And, you know, I think that people who want coaching that come to me that aren't quite ready, like you can tell, you can tell those people that are like ready to jump in, and they're like, here's what's going on, I want to like work on this, this and this, and I'm like, yes, let's do it. And then you have other people that come in, that are like, you know, all of this around me is, is, you know, making me do the crazy things that I'm doing. And I'm like, Well, you know, let's kind of look, look at you and look inside and see what's going on there. So I just, you know, the idea to reiterate, is, it all starts with us. And, you know, we, we are always the last on our lists, we're taking care of everyone else. And to just put yourself at the top of that list and be selfish, like I can't, I can't reiterate that enough. We also work a lot on gratitude. You know, finding ways to appreciate ourselves, appreciate others. You know, anytime you do something nice for somebody, it always makes us feel good. And I think people sometimes forget that. So the idea of just like putting kindness out there putting, putting like, you know, your best your best foot forward and, you know, obviously we're all gonna have bad days and that's okay. And but the idea of just making yourself a priority and, and giving and taking that gratitude that comes I think is so, so important.
Kim Meninger
And what I really like about that, too, is that it teaches you to pay attention to the positive, because our brains are so oriented towards the negative that focusing on gratitude is such a powerful way to just balance our perspective of ourselves in the world.
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, I mean, you know, when we look at to-do lists, being in that perfectionist mode, you know, wanting everything to be great and perfect. We're like, here's what I didn't do. And here's what I didn't get to today. And the idea of just turning that around and being like, wow, you know, I actually completed six of the 10 things on my to-do list and you're not focusing on the four you didn't complete, you're focusing on what you did complete and just, you know, praising yourself a little bit and be like, wow, you know, I killed it today. Like I had all of these interruptions. And I actually, you know, I got all of this done. And so, just that idea of coming from that perspective, it can really shift your mindset.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. It's so important to when you're building confidence, and you're trying to make changes to focus on what are the positive results. And so I think even just like we've been talking about setting small, taking baby steps, even when it comes to setting boundaries, celebrate that, because that's a big victory, and it's really worth paying attention to.
Jen Schwytzer
It totally is and we don't pay enough attention to it. And, you know, I think that's the idea of like, we're our biggest cheerleaders, or we're our biggest critic. So other side and whatever day it happens to be for you. That's exactly.
Kim Meninger
So helpful. Jen, I so appreciate this conversation for people who want to learn more about you. Where can they find you?
Jen Schwytzer
Yeah, so you can find me at kindfulnesscoaching.com Or you can find me on Instagram at mindfulnesscoaching.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Well, thanks again. I really appreciate it. I love the emphasis on kindness. I think we could all use more of that these days.
Jen Schwytzer
Love it. Thank you so much for having me, Kim. I really appreciate it.