In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about neurodivergence. As DEI initiatives have expanded to include more of a focus on neurodivergence, we’ve learned more about what it means to be neurodivergent in the workplace. Examples include ADHD, autism spectrum disorder or dyslexia. But from an inclusion standpoint, challenges remain for neurodivergent and neurotypical professionals alike. This week, I talk with Dr. Matt Zakreski, a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent children. Here we talk about how we can all benefit from showing greater curiosity and communicating more openly with one another. Whether you are neurodivergent or you’re neurotypical and want to better support neurodivergent folks around you, this conversation will help you think differently about how we can create more inclusive workplaces for everyone.
About My Guest
Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski, PsyD is a high energy, creative clinical psychologist and professional speaker who utilizes an eclectic approach to meet the specific needs of his neurodivergent clients. He is proud to serve the Gifted community as a consultant, a professor, an author, and a researcher. He has spoken over 400 times all over the world about supporting neurodivergent kids. Dr. Zakreski is a member of Supporting the Emotional Needs of the Gifted (SENG), the National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC), the New Jersey Association for Gifted Children (NJAGC), and Pennsylvania Association for Gifted Education (PAGE). Dr. Zakreski graduated from Widener University’s Institute for Graduate Clinical Psychology (IGCP) in 2016. He is the co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective: https://www.theneurodiversitycollective.com/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Matt, it is such a pleasure to have you here today. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I am well I'm thrilled to be here. So my name is Dr. Matt Zakreski. I'm a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with gifted and other neurodivergent folks. And, you know, I've been doing this work for a long time, little over come on a decade and a half now. And like a lot of people in the neurodivergent field, I wear a lot of hats. I am primarily a therapist, but I'm also a professional speaker. I do IQ testing, and consulting and coaching. And basically, you know, law advocacy work, you know, if my kids need me, I go where the problems are.
Kim Meninger
So can you define neurodivergent? Because it's a term I think we hear a lot these days. And there's a lot more, I would say, you know, sort of push for lack of a better term, to think more inclusively. And I wonder, you know, sometimes if people really understand what that term means, and so would you be willing to share your definition? Absolutely.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So. So the best way to think about neurodivergent is that most brains are neurotypical. Right? So about 70% of brains are neurotypical. And that means that brains function about the way we'd expect them to do. You know, no two brains are the same. But you know, we think about things largely are going the way that you'd expect them to go. neurodivergent brains are brains that are quantifiably different in some way. Usually, that takes the form of ADHD, autism, giftedness learning, dyslexia. dysgraphia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, OCD, basically, we understand a lot more about the brain now that the differences we see are actually directly related to brain differences. So it's not bad parenting, or too much gluten or Tik-tok’s fault. It's very easy to blame Tik-toc for things but so yeah, so mean. So some people use neurodivergent as a, as a synonym for autism. And I always like to point out that it's really any different brain. So some people were like, well, how is giftedness part of neurodivergence? Like, well, I can show you a picture of a gifted brain. And I can tell you how it's different than a neurotypical brain. They're the differences we see are not just, oh, this kid is smart. This kid's brain quite literally works differently.
Kim Meninger
And so when you talk about working with, you mentioned, gifted, you use that term? Or would you say that you work primarily with one population? Or do you see people across all of the different examples that you shared like ADHD, dyslexia, et cetera?
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, I mean, I named my therapy practice the neurodiversity collective because I wanted to see all different kinds of brains. The probably 90-ish percent of the people I see are, are neurodivergent. And that's fine. I mean, like, neurodiversity means all brains, right? And, you know, I mean, like any insular community, people can be a little bit like, our brains are better than your brains, like, nobody's brain is better than anybody else's brain. Right?
Kim Meninger
So what do they you know, and feel free to break this down to it? I'm sure. It's not as simple as saying, What's the difference between somebody who's more neurotypical and somebody who's more neurodivergent? I'm sure it's much more nuanced than that. But what are the kinds of things that the people that you see, grapple with that maybe we more neurotypical folks don't understand? Or, you know, just we just don't have visibility to because it's not how we operate?
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Well, and I appreciate you asking that question. I love that sort of intellectual humility, right?So one of the things that we see a lot in neurodivergent, folks, is what we call asynchronous development. So if you're 10 years old, and you're neurotypical, you're basically 10 years old and everything socially, emotionally, academically, intellectually, physically, more or less, it holds together, right, you might get some differentiation, but it's more or less your 10. And everything you do. What we know about neurodivergent people is that the brain comes online, it develops in a different way. And since there's only so much energy to go around, you start to see this developmental spread or shift. So what you'll See is someone say who with ADHD is chronologically 10. But really functions sort of more like, seven across the board. Right? This is the old, one-and-a-half rule for ADHD. So you take the age divided in half and then half had back. It's not. It's not a perfect science, of course, but it's just because of the ways the brain works in, in gifted kids, which is, you know, the primarily what I do, you know, you get a very significant developmental spread. So you have a kid who's 10 years old, but intellectually 17, and emotionally eight and socially seven. So it's like, how do you intervene with that kid? Right? Can you, you intellectually, they can handle high school, so we should put them in high school, right? But you're gonna get 10-year-old, especially with 10-year-old with delayed social skills is going to hang with high school kids. It's not so easy, right? So there's a lot of nuance a lot of deck shuffling to, to get the needs of these kids met. And so if you're out there listening to this, and you're like, Yeah, I've never felt like I fit together, or I feel like my kid doesn't fit together, then they, then that's a pretty good marker that they may be neurodivergent. Because this is a developmental trend we see in that population.
Kim Meninger
Well, it's funny because my, I have a nine-year old son, and he and I just recently started watching Young Sheldon. So when you're talking about the kid who's intellectually at 17, but you know, social skills are delayed, I'm immediately thinking about that show. And, and I think it's interesting that we have more characters in entertainment, and you know, just more, more access. But I wonder, are you familiar with the show? And does it accurately capture or do I mean, obviously, we make caricatures out of out of characters.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
But the thing that warms my heart about Young Sheldon is that I think it's actually a much more nuanced portrait of a profoundly gifted kid, then Big Bang Theory was ever about a gifted adult. I like there are moments in Young Sheldon, where I'm like, I that's what I see with my clients like that's like that sort of those like heartbreaking moments where he's like, I know, I'm different. But I can't be any other way than I am. And I'm like, yeah, like, yes. Right? And I also I think he's just, I forget the actor's name. He's brilliant. Like, he brings so much like heart to that character, that I think is just sort of beautiful. So, I mean, yeah, big fan of Young Sheldon. Big Bang Theory is a little bit more, let's say, controversial within the gifted community. You know, every you know, there are caricatures. Right? So, you know, it's, it's one of those things like, if you can take those parts of it with good humor, I think there are lessons to be learned. Chuck Lorre, who wrote the show is brilliant. He's gifted himself. So I know a lot of that stuff comes from a place of authentic knowledge. It just is a little bit distilled to get the laughs right? And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, as long as you view it with a grain of salt.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think that's important, I think, you know, obviously, TV is designed for entertainment purposes. But I also think there is some value in introducing us to, to things that we might not recognize or encounter in our own worlds. And so, you know, one of the things that I think about too is, when you talk about social skills, one of the things I see from people who are perhaps more neurotypical is, they have a hard time with people who are neuro-divergent, and not as, you know, their social skills aren't the same as theirs. And so, especially if you're highly sensitive to emotional cues, and you're always one of those people who reads the room and assumes that everyone's thinking about you when they're not, right, that it can create, I can create a conflict because we make assumptions about the way someone is behaving that really are not an accurate reflection of what the other person is thinking. And so I wonder if you have thoughts on how this is a big question, but how do neurotypical people better understand and not take personally, some of the behaviors that they experience in neurodivergent people when it comes to social skills?
Dr. Matt Zakreski
That is sort of at the heart of what I do, right? So this is a funny story. It's a very podcast, he sort of story. So, you know, I'm a neurodivergent person myself, I'm gifted in ADHD. So like, this is the world I live in. But I, you know, there, there are different kinds of intelligence, right? And I would argue that I'm probably pretty socially gifted, like I get people, I have always gotten people. If you look at the jobs, I've done a lot of customer service, a lot of sales as a bartender for many years. I like pizza, like, it's what I do now. Right? I'm good with people. There are probably some ex-girlfriends who think otherwise, but that's neither here nor there. So I was working, I worked at a school for gifted kids and, and many of the staff members were gifted in neurodivergent themselves. And I was accepted to a conference. And one of my colleagues was also accepted at that conference. And she was asking me, if I was planning on going, I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, I love Chicago. It's gonna be a great place. You know, I'm looking forward to going she's like great, Do you want to share a hotel room? And I was taken, I was like, no, no, I'm, I'm married. She said, Well, um, I like, Well, okay, I just, I like to have my own space. And I don't want to sleep with you. I'm like, I, I don't think you do. I just am very off put by the question. It's an atypical question, right? And, and I was like, Oh, well, if you'd excuse me, go to the bathroom. She's like, I do too. I'll walk with you. So she walked with me to the bathroom. And it's the sort of thing like, if this was Big Bang Theory, it would be played for laughs. In real life, it was somewhere between uncomfortable and off-putting, right, somewhere in between those things. And I know this woman and she, she doesn't have a cruel or lecherous bone in her body, but she could not understand what we call theory of mind. The idea is that I have different thoughts and feelings than you have about things. I always say this to my clients, it's like, you know, what's your favorite Star Wars movie, they're always quick to say something. And I'm like, great. If mine is different, does that make mine worse? And like, well, but everybody likes Return of the Jedi. It's the best movie. Why would you not like Return of the Jedi? I'm like, Well, I like Empire Strikes Back. Right? My opinion is different than yours. Because I have a different brain than yours. It's not better or it's just different. And so if you if you can understand that the directness that comes with much neurodivergent communication is not meant to be upsetting. It's not meant to be off-putting it is just very direct. You know, then you will, then I think it puts us in a position and this is one of my go-to therapy sayings is Be curious, not furious.
Kim Meninger
Oh, I like that.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna put it on bumper sticker. It's gonna be great. Right? But I mean, that's the thing. Like, if somebody comes up to you, it's like, Excuse me. Are you done with that? Like, you might be like, Dude, don't talk to me that way. Screw you. That's like, okay, hold on. Let's be curious about that. Why is this person saying this to me this way, in this moment? 99% of the time, there's a reason. And you know, a lot neurodivergent people say it's like, we don't have the time for social artifice. Right? It's just, you know, we just you just get the thing done. And there's, there's a, there's a middle ground, I think, you know, I lived with my grandma, actually. Well, you're from Massachusetts. I lived with my grandparents for a while, and Walpole. You know, where the big prison is? Yes, that's my hometown. And I lived with my grandparents for a while when I was waiting for my apartment to be ready. And as I was trying to pitch in around the house and help out and one day my grandmother who's very neurotypical said to me, she's like, it's not supposed to rain later. And I'm like, great. Cool. And then I continued to drink my coffee and read my paper. And later, my mom called me, she's like, Hey, Nana is upset and like, what's Nana upset about? She goes, Well, she wanted you to take in the laundry. And, and you didn't do it. I'm like, she never asked me to, and then it clicked. It's not supposed to rain later, which means the laundry is on the clothesline, which means I should take it in. But like a neurodivergent person would be like, hey, taking the laundry, huh? You know, so it's the thing like there's a middle ground, right? There's like, I think neurotypical people could stand to be a sketch more direct. I think neurodivergent people could stand to be a sketch more soft, let's say, right? So, and the word we use for this is called meta-communication, right? Talking about talking. Because if I'm neurodivergent I mean, like, Listen, this is not a conversation I'm comfortable with. I'm going to try and cue this up to you in a way that you understand it. Right? You know, my one of my colleagues is a very high-level computer science guy. He's brilliant at it. And he, he often will say he's like, Listen, I'm going to sound like a jerk by saying this to you. And I don't mean to. That's his meta-communication because he doesn't know how to say it softly, he can only say it directly, but he uses the words to sort of blunt the impact of it. So.
Kim Meninger
Well, I think that's really interesting because I often recommend people, you know, even very just neurotypical, you know, whether you know, someone's neurodivergent, or not engage in that meta-communication in the workplace because we do make assumptions about each other. And sometimes people are just having a bad day. And sometimes they just value different things than we do. Right. And so I think it is always helpful to be able to talk about how we talk to each other. And so I wonder if that is something that you recommend to the, to people you work with to let people know that they think differently? Like, how much do you think we should be revealing about our neuro divergence in the workplace? If that is the case, right? Is that something you feel would be beneficial to share? Is it something that you think it's risky to share?
Dr. Matt Zakreski
It's riskier than I want it to be. For a lot of people, they'll it for a lot of people, it feels like a coming out process. Which is interesting on multiple levels, not the least of which is that many neurodivergent people are LGBTQ anyway, there's like a, somewhere between like 38 and 70% of neurodivergent people are LGBTQ. [Oh, interesting.] Well, yeah, we're not really sure why it's interesting, but it's but so the idea is there are environments, if you are different in some way that are safe and receptive, and their environments that if you're different in some way or not, right? And a lot of companies are putting neuro divergence as part of their DEI work. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, which makes me really happy, you know, I get to work, I just did a talk for IBM about that. I spoke to a big law firm about how to be more neuro-inclusive. So the companies are starting to, to wrap their heads around it, but it's one of those things where, you know, like, in, like in school, a lot of neuro divergence comes out in when it interacts with systems, in this case here, so a kid can't sit still in class, they might have ADHD, we're gonna write them a 504 plan to get them some accommodations. Honestly, that's what it kind of looks like in the workplace, you know, you get an adult who say, also has ADHD. And if you don't give them an office with a door, they're never getting anything done. Because they need to be able to shut out that external stimulation and get the job done. Right? So, you know, so it's absolutely appropriate. And I do this advocacy work with my adult clients all the time of, hey, you know, what, yeah, you're allowed to ask for a door, like, and that's an accommodation, you know, and, you know, the government has defined ADHD as a disability. So you, it's consistent with the Americans with Disabilities Act to get the accommodations you need. So, you know, there's an art to it, which is why bringing somebody like me is helpful, but it's absolutely a thing that you can do.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I think about that, too, when it comes to impostor syndrome is, you know, sometimes the reason why we might feel like an imposter is because we're not set up for success in the environment. And so if you think about people who are afraid to tell their managers, let's just use ADHD as an example, right? They're perfectly capable of doing the job. But if they're afraid of having the conversation with their manager, to say, I can do this job, I just have to do it differently than my peers, right? Then there's going to be that constant sense of self-doubt that I'm going to do it wrong, right? Because it's not the way that I, I do my best work.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
And, you know, and I was, you know, so I was in travel sales for a while. And, you know, being an ADHD person in a sales job is, in many ways good. You're playing your strengths, right? It's a lot of simulation a lot moving quickly thinking on your feet. But there will also be a lot of trainings and a lot of group meetings and things where my brain would be like, Ah, I don't like it. And I would deal with that by taking a lot of micro-breaks, right? So take like a five-minute read something on ESPN, and then go back to my job. And my manager was like, What are you doing? You can't keep reading ESPN at work. I'm like, honestly, it's making me a more effective employee. And if I get a phone call during that reading about like, whatever's happening to the Red Sox. I'm going to put that away and take the phone call. I just need to scratch that itch. Right? It's, you know, and I put out to him because, you know, he's focusing on it was like, It's not unlike a cigarette break, you know, you get to walk downstairs, go outside, go to the smoke parks hang out there for 10 minutes, and then come back inside. I'm just reading about college baseball, or you know, or something like that. So it's totally, it's totally a reasonable thing to ask for. But to your point, right, the number one thing that sort of creates the scene for imposter syndrome is feeling different from your environment. And that can be something that's explicit, right? You're the only person in a wheelchair in your office. Or, it can be something implicit. I'm neurodivergent and I don't think anybody knows I am. But everybody else here gets like, the like the bosses here. So you should look nice and work harder. And no one ever told me that why no one ever told me that, right? You know, I'm actually writing a book about all this stuff right now. And it's all about this idea of this, like unspoken Social Code that neurotypical people tend to get, and neurodivergent people tend to be like, if there are rules, you should write them down and tell them to me, please.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and you know, and I think that that's fair, across the board, too, because people from different cultures don't always understand the, the unwritten rules either or people from underrepresented groups, right? So I think that, yeah, that that is always a fear that I didn't get the manual that everyone else has access to, like, I'm at this disadvantage because everyone else has figured this out. Or they're part of some secret club that I haven't been invited to.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh my god, right? It's like, why didn't you invite me to your club? Like, you know, I'm a theater kid. So I was like, was there a rehearsal? Was there a meeting like, my message get lost in the mail? Like, you know, and we talked about social asynchrony? Before, right? So where this really seems to rear its ugly head for most kids as middle school because chronologically you're 13. And you've hit puberty, and you look like you've hit puberty. But socially, you're still 10. So why are boy-girl parties important? Yeah, that was a real awkward conversations with your parents about that. It's like, like, I remember going to like my first boy-girl, party and people and being like, why is this different than it was before? I've been to birthday parties with these people. I grew up in a small town. I've known these kids my whole life, like, but it's different now. Like, why? Someone tell me like, I get that you think it's different. I don't know why that's right. You know, so, you know, I mean, people who are people who are from underrepresented groups, often are more likely to feel impostor syndrome. But it's also important, I would actually even say it's vital that we don't dismiss that we don't dismiss their very real concerns about systemic bias for imposter syndrome. Right? Like, if you're say, if you're a trans person, right, if you're transgender, and they don't have unisex bathrooms. You might be like, This is bad. This is systemic bias. And there are people who don't really understand imposter syndrome would be like, Isn't that your imposter syndrome talking? You're like, No, I can't work in this place because you don't have bathrooms that are safe for me to use. You know, I mean, having a DEI, person or a program in a school is vital because if you're going to recruit people from underprivileged or underrepresented populations, you've got to have safe landing places for them in your school. And if you don't, you're setting them up to fail. And you can't call that imposter syndrome.
Kim Meninger
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and that always brings me to the question of what is the opportunity for leadership in these moments, right, whether it's schools or workplaces? If you're let's imagine a manager, and you have someone on your team that you suspect maybe neurodivergent, but they haven't said that to you directly. Is there any fair way to have that conversation? Like what, you know, as somebody who's a complete, you know, layman in this in this space, there have been times when I'll be talking to a client who has someone on their team, and they'll just say things to me, like, no matter what we how many times we talk about it, they never seem to understand this or they never get things done on time, or they struggle with organizational skills or just different kinds of clues that there might be something different about their brain or the way that they're processing information or, and it's, again, I'm curious So if you are the manager in that situation, if there is a respectful way to engage that person in a conversation to better understand what might help them to show up more effectively.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a very challenging conversation, there's a lot of nuance to it, because you're essentially asking somebody to reveal personal medical information, right? If I'm walking around, and I'm on crutches that's very visible. If I have an insulin pump on my arm, I can hide it with my shirt. And I don't have to tell you that there are reasons that I should, right? But this is where truth-telling or information-sharing is a bi-directional process. It's a two-way street. Because ultimately, what that turns into, is you got to create as a manager, you've got to create an environment where people feel safe to share. Right? That is my primary job as a therapist, like, I have to create an environment where people can tell me the good, the bad, and the ugly, right. And, and then the person if they feel comfortable to share needs to have the words and the tools to get there. So you know, I mean, there I have a, I have a colleague, who is a pretty high powered attorney, you know, they're brilliant, they're great. Thank God, they have paralegals because they'd never get their paperwork in on time. Because they're very ADHD. Right? They're a great trial attorney phenomenal in front of a group. Right. But filing motions, not so much. But this law firm, which is very prestigious, and has all sorts of names would not be very friendly to that revelation. Right? So they take their meds, they keep their head down, they use the paralegals, right? And, as me, you know, we're east coasters, right? We're very pragmatic by nature, right? It's like whatever works, get the job done. And I, that's where she's coming from. And I honor that I respect that I'm here for it. So, you know, that's to me, makes a lot of sense. But I wish we lived in a world where that would be honored. Right? And it would be more easy to manage, right? Because it's like, the reality is like, what matters is can she do her job? Right? And when you talk to neurodivergent people, a lot of people sort of have resulted in trauma from a lot of people sort of focusing on their weaknesses, not searching for their strengths, right? I call it Christina Collins always says, Don't be a deficit detective. Yes, you probably don't want your accountant to be ADHD. Right? That's, that's probably true. With that said, it doesn't mean that somebody who was ADHD couldn't be good with money, right, they would just might need to do it in a different way. So, you know, it's, that's why my, my colleague has great paralegals, and has a team around them, and they do an awesome job. Right? And someday, hopefully, they can come out as the, you know, to use that language. Right. So yeah, you know, it's very, it's very nuanced. And this stuff is very new. You know, I mean, really, this, these terms have come out over the last decade. And really, I haven't seen neuro divergence and DEI work for the last two, three years. And I know that people have been doing it long before that, but now it's more in the public consumption, right? People are aware of this now. So it's becoming, you know, it's like when your like, favorite local band makes it big, you're like, Oh, well, this is going to change everything. Right? Okay.
Kim Meninger
So I think one, one of the things I think about too, is good leaders get to know their team members as individuals, and they learn like you said, what are their strengths? And what are their needs, and they don't apply a one-size-fits-all strategy to managing people. And so I think, as we think about being more inclusive, as a leader, are there suggestions that you have on how managers can talk to or get to know their team members in a way that is, I would say it promotes that kind of safety, but it also gives them an opportunity to talk about I'll just give you an example of this like that. I feel like if someone's struggling with a particular approach to an assignment or to a task, that a manager might say, Well, what have you found helpful in the past, right? To help you solve similar types of problems or things where you're not gaming, you're not diagnosing your team members, right? You're not You're not asking them to reveal information about them. sells that they're not ready to reveal yet, but you're sort of problem-solving with them in a way that gives you the ability to set them up for success.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, I mean, and that's, I think good management is about knowing your people, right? strengths, weaknesses. And, and when I, when I manage people, it's, it's always like, Hey, listen, everybody's got strengths. Everybody's got weaknesses. Everybody's got stuff they're in development on, right? The more I understand you, the better I can serve you. Right? Like, that's what I think servant leadership is all about. Right? You have to work with the people you have, not the people you wish you had. Yes. If you had an all-star team of like pharma girls who were out there, like crushing it, like in like 300% of their sales goals, you wouldn't need to manage them. They would be like, just you know, it's like a robot army. You're great Stepford Wives, right? This is more like, you might have some all-stars, you might have some solid players, you might have some people who like, you could see them being good and a little bit, but you got to get in there, right? And I often, you know, I say this to us all times, like, you know, the gifted kids are easy to see because they're getting straight A's raising their hands, right? And they're like, of course, like, not all gifted kids are like that. Do you have a kid in your school? who pisses you off? If they could just get their stuff together? They're like, Oh, my gosh, that's like Bobby, or Sally or Manuel or something like, yep. That kid might be gifted to the kid is probably what we call twice exceptional, right? Gifted plus a second neuro divergence, usually ADHD, autism, a learning difference, right? So you know, so it's weird. When you reframe it like that. For schools, it's like, oh, the reason this kid is pissing me off is their brain allows them to do some parts of this, but not all parts of this, you can absolutely pick up that same model and drop it into HR. It's the same thing, right? You might, you might have the best. You might have the best. In house manager, the person gets people, they are making sure the schedule is done. Everybody's got the paperwork in on time. They're crushing it. But you don't want them like hiring people, because they're not good at that. So you bring in somebody else to hire them. That's fine. Right? Maybe the manager signs the paperwork, but you can have your team lead, do that. Right? And it's the sort of thing like, nobody does all the parts of their job equally. And giving yourself permission to play to your strengths and support your weaknesses helps everybody do better. We're all here to do at the end of the day.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Yeah, it strikes me too, that it requires a bit of a growth mindset, right, we get thinking about how things need to be done, or to be able to say, hey, just because we've done it this way in the past doesn't mean we have to do it this way going forward. And that we actually might have even better results if we think differently about it.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I do love a good growth mindset. And I think the growth mindset, you know, the key thing here is that the key word is yet right. Like I don't have any yet. I don't have the skills, yet. I don't have a teammate yet. But there, but we're on the way. You know, my colleague, Scott better, Kaufman always says, like, you don't even need to know that where you're going just know it's going to be better within where you are, is, like I needed a destination, I need a goal. But like, the bed is like a parent. Like there's no max level parenting, you're a parent level 100 You win, right? It doesn't work that way. We all grow and change and evolve as we go. Right? And weirdly, I have a lot of impostor syndrome as a dad, in part because I'm a child psychologist, people are like, well, you should know what you're doing. I'm like, none of us know what we're doing. But like, the gap between me knowing things and knowing that I don't know what I'm doing. It's huge, right? You know, like my neighbor down the street. He's like, Oh, man, kids are tough, right? It's like, you have no idea that he has no idea but because I just have the burden of knowledge. Right? You know, so it's just, it's absolutely, it's a mess. But the idea here is, these thoughts and feelings don't preclude us from membership in these groups. They don't make us incapable or unworthy. All it is, is gives us sort of that self-compassion to start where we are, whether that's at the C suite or an unpaid intern, right? And, you know, I often say to my clients, like the best time to start something was five years ago, the second best time is right now. So if you hear this podcast and you're like, that is me I need to do something about this. I've been dragging my feet on this for five years. Cool. Welcome to the club. Right? And we meet on Tuesdays in the church basement, bring cookies, right? It's gonna be great. And that's all it's all any of us can do is start now. And you know that he's talking to somebody like me or, you know, seeing information about adult ADHD or autism. It's honestly, it's, it's never too late.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I'm having, having worked with and known people who have been diagnosed as adults. I've seen so many people get this overwhelming sense of relief from that, knowing Oh, it's not I'm not broke. It's not me. Right. There's an explanation. And so I think that's a great call to action for anybody listening who sees themselves in this conversation. This has been fantastic. Matt, thank you so much for having the discussion with me. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work?
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Well, so I'm many places. So I have two primary jobs. Therapy is through the neurodiversity collective. That's the name of our therapy practice. We do everything online. So that's very convenient. And then the more I did therapy work, the more that turned into consulting coaching, giving a lot of talks. So in fact, on Wednesday, this week, I'm flying to North Carolina to give a couple of presentations for the North Carolina Gifted Association. And then oh my gosh, this the reason I have an assistant is my travel schedule is bonkers. But if you feel like this messaging would make sense for your school for your company for your organization, then it's DrMattZakreski.com. We have a really fun Facebook page facebook.com/drmattzakreski. It's like brain science nerd humor, psychology jokes, parenting ramblings, it's, you know, it's a, it's a, which I tried to find the humor in all of this because I think if you can't, we're, you know, we're just going to drown. But it's one of those things where, you know, the brain and psychology is everything we do. So getting that taken care of, is the biggest investment you can make in yourself and your own happiness. And if I get to be a part of that, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning. So it's pretty fun for me.
Kim Meninger
That's, that's great, Matt, thank you. And I'll put those links in the show notes as well for anybody who's interested. And just thanks again for being here. This is a really important conversation.
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh, thank you for having me. And if you know if there's ever we need to do this again and talk more I'd love to come back. You're very easy to talk to. Thank you.