In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about managing up. For professionals with impostor syndrome or self-doubt, managing up can be a big challenge. Many of us prefer to keep our heads down, do good work and avoid the politics. Unfortunately, if your goal is advancement, that strategy won’t get you there. My guest this week, Roberta Matuson, is an executive coach and author of the book, Suddenly in Charge: Managing Up, Managing Down, Succeeding All Around. Here she shares her own story of learning the hard way about the importance of managing up. We also discuss strategies you can use to manage up in ways that feel more authentic to you.
About My Guest
For more than 25 years, Roberta Matuson, president of Matuson Consulting, has helped leaders in highly regarded companies, including General Motors, Takeda Pharmaceuticals, and Microsoft, and small to medium-size businesses, achieve dramatic growth and market leadership through the maximization of talent. She’s the author of seven books including the forthcoming third edition of Suddenly In Charge: Managing Up, Managing Down, Succeeding All Around, a Washington Post Top 5 Business Book For Leaders. Can We Talk? Seven Principles for Managing Difficult Conversations at Work, and Evergreen Talent. Roberta is one of a handful of people who have appeared as a guest of Bill O’Reilly’s on Fox’s O’Reilly Factor, and who left the show unscathed.
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Website: https://matusonconsulting.com/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Roberta, it is so wonderful to have you here today. I can't wait to jump into our conversation. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Roberta Matuson
Well, thank you, Kim. It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Roberta Matuson, and I am known globally as the Talent Maximizer. And like many of your listeners, my life is somewhat similar in, in the fact that the lessons that I learned along the way, those are the exact lessons that I talk about you and I'll be talking about that. And I've written about that in seven books, and the new one will be out next week Suddenly in Charge. That's the third edition. And I'm really looking forward to hearing how I can be of help to your listeners today.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Well, thank you. And would you, you mentioned some of the lessons that you learned. Would you mind sharing a little bit about what were some of the bigger themes that you bumped into and your own journey? Like, what are the kinds of things that led you down the path of I really need to help other people?
Roberta Matuson
Okay, well, it all started when I was 24 years old. And I went into work one day, and I found out that my boss had been fired. And so I did what I thought any other 24-year-old would do. I went to her boss, who was the President, and I asked for her job. And they actually gave it to me. So at 24 years old, I was thrown into the executive suite, I was managing a team of people, some were old enough to be my parents, others to be my grandparents. And my problem was probably very different than many of your listeners who may have this feeling like, oh, you know, maybe I'm not good enough. Or why am I in this job? I thought I was like the bomb. I thought I was like, I deserve this job. I was 24. I knew everything. And what I didn't know, which was what eventually took me out was I didn't know that I needed to manage up. So, I kept my head down. And I did my job, all the tactical pieces. And I learned on the job, because you know, I didn't have a lot of experience. And I made the mistake. I didn't build relationships. And then one day, I got taken out by a wave I never saw coming.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. I'm really glad you said that. Because I think a lot of times, we assume that confidence is the primary challenge. Issue, right? It was how you navigated the role once you got there. And part of I think what makes us so complicated is that we learn certain subjects in school, and we're taught certain things about, you know, the, the areas of focus of our jobs, but we don't always learn things like oh, you really need to make sure you're spending time building relationships, we usually learn that the hard way.
Roberta Matuson
No and there are very few universities that actually have business classes on managing up. I was very lucky when I was doing my graduate work. I took a course on power and politics. And I mean, it was the best course I ever took. And, and as we went through the process, we had to kind of dissect our own organization and see where all the politics was going on and how to navigate that. And at the end of that course, I was like, I gotta get out of this job. Because I was so naive, I had no idea. And I see a lot of that in when I'm coaching people or when I'm doing speeches, especially people who work for nonprofits. They will say to me, well, our organization isn't political. And I'm like, your organization is way more political than others. Because when there is a limited amount of resources, that's when the politics really fire up, right? Because for me to get something because there isn't a lot somethings gonna happen to you. So.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and that's how I think about it, too. When you bring people with different agendas together, who are fighting for limited resources, you are going to get politics whether he wants.
Roberta Matuson
But I know how to handle that. Now. Back then, I was like, what, what is this politics thing? Like, I'm just doing my job here, people.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Well, you know, that point is really important because what I'd love to hear your perspective on is I think a lot of people especially high-achievers, people were really good at school, because they [Yeah], right? They follow the rules. They, they knew how to ace the exam, but then the workplace and it feels almost like an injustice to be so focused on the work to be able to produce such high-quality work and then to watch the people around you. You know, getting opportunities because it seems like they've got connections, or they have this political capital. And it's it feels like they're almost cheating, when in actuality, that is the way the system works. And so can you…
Roberta Matuson
Oh, yeah. I mean, I have people when I'm coaching, like, I'm working right now with a group of female executives for that work for a biotech company. And, you know, they were just shocked to hear like, Oh, this is going on. This is the reason why this is happening to me. Like they were shocked at that revelation, or they were like, you know, we really don't like people who brown nose, because that's what people think managing up is and it is not. But yeah, then they will describe for me, the behaviors of the most successful people around them, and they’re all managing up. And so when I help them reframe this, I'm like, Look, this politics is not a dirty word. And this business of managing up, it is not an option. And so when I helped them reframe that, and I helped my clients reframe that, they're like, Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, that, that, that aligns with my values, my ethics, I can do it. And I can do it in a way that works for me. Not I don't have to be like that, you know, jerk that we all deal with who, you know, I'm not going to tell you what department they work in. But you probably know.
Kim Meninger
Can you actually define your, your way of thinking about managing up because I do think that it's a term that isn't always defined, or everybody has their own interpretation?
Roberta Matuson
Sure. Yeah, managing up, the way I define it is, it's managing your boss and your boss's peers, so that you can get the resources you need for yourself and for your people.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and that is so important because I think it's so easy to assume that our managers can read our minds or that they're fully tuned into what we need and what we're working on. And the reality is that they're human.
Roberta Matuson
They're doing their jobs. They're like, overwhelmed, especially today, right? Everybody's slicing and dicing and jobs aren't being backfilled. And, so, they're doing two or three jobs, you're doing two or three jobs, they have no idea of what you're doing. And if you don't remind them and you don't tell them and you don't shamelessly promote, then the person who does and does that well, they're the ones who are going to get the opportunities, not you.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And that's where I think a lot of people feel incredibly resentful because they feel like their counterpart maybe is doing mediocre work, when in actuality, there, they're using different skills.
Roberta Matuson
Yeah. And you know, they should be ticked off at themselves. And I'll tell you a story, I was doing a workshop on executive presence for women in it for a very, very, very well-known tech company, shall we say, and you're probably using their products right now. And in the room was their manager. And this was these were all women and their manager was in the room. And this one young woman, she was pushing back really hard on some of the stuff I was saying. And finally, her boss, who isn't in the room said, Listen, I want you to all hear me, there isn't a day that that doesn't go by when your male counterparts are in my office, asking me when they're going to get promoted. I have not seen one of you do that. And so these guys, and I do mean, guys, they're in there. And they're saying, hey, when am I, I've been in this job 30 seconds, when am I going to get promoted? And the women are sitting back because they're polite, and they know it's not nice to ask. And, you know, there'll be acknowledged when the right time comes and their work will, you know, demonstrate that they're the right choice. And, you know, they are best-kept secrets. And so the result is, they don't get promoted, and then they get pissed off. They're pissed off at the system, but it's not the system. That's the problem. It's the fact that they're not taking action.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and you know, I think that's a great example of when you talk about politics, if you've got a squeaky wheel. Some men are much better at this. So a lot of that is their social conditioning. But if they are in the office of their manager saying hey, when, when am I eligible for the next promotion? And I often say this to women too. If you're just smiling and pleasantly doing the work and following through like they have no reason to think that you're, you know, if they have to make a choice, which one is a flight risk?
Roberta Matuson
While you're home baking cookies for everyone, you know, because you want to please them right and they're out you know, on the golf course with like the heavy hitters. So you kind of have to balance like, you know, how that might work for you. But you're absolutely right. And, you know, it's really a shame because we know that women oftentimes, like they should be the ones promoted. And it's really interesting. I think there was a study done by McKinsey. And I don't remember the percentages, but it was significantly more men, they will ask for, they will go for a promotion when they're like, you know, 30 or 40%, of what the qualifications are. And women know, they're going to wait until they have all the qualifications. If the posting says three years of experience, and they have two years and nine months, they will wait because they don't have three, while their male counterparts will be like, I've been in this job, 30 days, I'm qualified, I'm gonna go for that promotion. So I mean, look, I would just encourage your listeners, you know, don't wait, if you think you're qualified, and you're ready, go for it. And these are just, you know, desirable qualifications, no one is going to fit into every single box that is on that list, trust me.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And I think that's a really important reminder, too, I think we sometimes take these job descriptions at face value. But a lot of times, they are just a collection of desirable traits, Nobody's expecting that they're going to get somebody said. So you mentioned something earlier, that I think is important to pick up on, which is being able to do it and align in alignment with your own values. Because I think that, to your point, a lot of times, we think about this concept of managing up and we look around, and some of the ways we're seeing it happen, feel a little bit icky, like, oh, I don't want to do that. How do we think about doing this in a way that doesn't make us feel dirty or sleazy?
Roberta Matuson
Well, I honestly, you know, I think, you know, getting a coach having somebody who can give you some guidance, who can help you practice so that your language comes out naturally. And so that you can, you can ask for what you need in a way that will help you actually get it. And you know, so for example, I was just coaching an executive in a pharmaceutical company. And you know, she needed more headcount. And her company was like, there will be no more headcount. And we went over like how to use influence how to translate the conversation so that you're putting it in your boss's best interest. And I followed up with her the next day, and I'm like, Well, how did that conversation goes? And she said, I got the people. And I was like, applause, applause, applause she asked for the people that she needed the resources in a way that demonstrated that it would be in her boss's best interest. And he gave it to her. [Yeah.] No, I don't know, shoot, that would have happened if we hadn't, like role-played, and I hadn't, like teeter off and I'm like, Hey, this is what exactly what you need to do if you want to get these people. And that's what happened.
Kim Meninger
And I think you're absolutely right. For many people, this is a big mindset shift. It's not something that they have practiced before and it's not going to be comfortable. You don't want the first time you say it to be in the meeting. Where…
Roberta Matuson
Right. Where because then you hold yourself back and go, Oh, my God, did I just say that like, and then you start, you know, we women were famous for oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. That's not really what I meant. Like, no, it is.
Kim Meninger
That’s right. Well, you also said something important, which is, how do you frame it as something that is good for the manager, too, because I think a lot of times, this is often a function of just how we've been taught as young girls to be very obedient and polite and not to overstep that if we're asking our boss for resources that it feels like a personal favor, right, that it's like, oh, I'm making this inappropriate request, as opposed to recognizing that you're asking for resources. So you can maximize your contribution to this organization, right? You're not asking your boss to come and help you move on the weekend. You're asking your boss to give you the tools so you can effectively do your job on behalf of the company.
Roberta Matuson
Okay, but we have to take that one step further. And by getting those resources, you will be able to take things off his or her plate, which will allow them to work on more visible projects, or actually get home in time once a week to have dinner with their or you know, oldest child who will be leaving for college in the fall. [Yes, yes.] So that's the secret. You got to tie that back to well, why would this be good for me? Like why? Why is the boss would I want to say yes to this?
Kim Meninger
Yes. And I think we get so in our own heads and we're so worried about overstepping that we're not thinking about this. is a mutually beneficial conversation right that, you know, I think about this a lot too, when it comes to promotions is yeah, there's obviously an awkwardness or discomfort that comes with saying I want to get promoted. But on the other hand, we live in a time where people are leaving their jobs left and right. A lot of people are, you know, quote-unquote, quiet-quitting or disengaging. And you think about saying to your manager, I want to invest more of my career here. And I want to do even more at this company that I'm doing today, right? Yes, there's an ask of maybe it's more money, a higher title. And there's a lot of behind-the-scenes, things that need to happen in order to make that work. But, but really, what you're saying is, I believe in this company, and I want to be an even bigger part of it. And I think there's a really fundamentally positive message to that.
Roberta Matuson
Exactly. And you know, you can't sit there when somebody else gets promoted, and they get the job you want. But you never even bother to ask for it. You can't be like angry like, well, how come they got it? You can be angry at yourself, like, Well, why didn't I ask for it? But you can't be, you know, disappointed or angry at them? Because it's not about them. It's really about you.
Kim Meninger
Yes, exactly. You know, and as cliche as it sounds, right, you miss 100% of the shots, you don't take.
Roberta Matuson
Right, true. And as I tell my clients, if you don't manage up, you're not going to have to worry about managing down. You won't be in a management role. And you won't even have a job. Trust me. I know.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yeah. No, it’s, it's harsh, but true. And I wonder, too, because you talked about shameless promotion. And I'm curious what you think about, you know, we're talking a lot about managing up in terms of ensuring that you get what you need to do your role. What is promotion look like? Especially for women who feel very uncomfortable with what they perceive to be bragging. And there's this feeling of we should be humble. How do you promote?
Roberta Matuson
Yeah, well, we have to stop that. I mean, you have to say, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't share this. So for example, suppose your organization is looking to open up a new market, they just, you know, your boss just denounce you're in sales. And your boss announced, hey, we're going to go into Latin America. All right. So your last name is, let's say, Cohen? Probably not a Latin name. All right. And your boss has no idea that you are fluent in Spanish. All right. And oh, you're thinking, oh, yeah, they're gonna look through the applicant tracking system that our company has or the personnel files, and they'll know like, they have a Spanish speaker here. No, they're not. And so you might say, you know, wow, after the meeting, you know, wow, Joe, that's really interesting. I'm not sure if you realize but I'm actually fluent in Spanish. And Joe will be like, No, I didn't. And, and I'd love an opportunity to open up that market, like and manage it. Wow. Well, you know, we're, well, I grew up in a household where, you know, we were all bilingual. I did not know that. Yeah, so let's get a date on the calendar because I'd like to interview for this job. And you just have to keep you know, pushing, pushing, pushing, but I think it's important that you let them know because they don't know.
Kim Meninger
That’s right. That's right. And I often think about when I think about self-promotion, there's ego-driven self-promotion, and there's service-driven self-promotion, right? So the obnoxious behavior that we tend to associate with self-promotion is that ego-driven, look at how wonderful I am kind of behavior that most of us, you know, think we don't want to be that person. But what you're describing is what I consider more service-oriented self-promotion, because you win, but the company wins too. Like, how wonderful to have someone in that role, who speaks the language, who already right, you know, already has an understanding of the culture, like that's a much better resource than having to go out. And now we have to find somebody, we've got to get them up to speed. So if you're sharing because you think your skill set actually aligns with the need of the organization, or are you sharing because you want to inform somebody about something that they can now take advantage of, because you're not working in a vacuum? Everybody's work is?
Roberta Matuson
Oh, but it's also it's also important to be a person of interest. So I remember leading a workshop on this very topic. And, you know, I told everybody like what the exercise was, they had to think of something that most people don't know about them. And we went around the room and I told them that the last person that goes is gonna be the hardest because we had some amazing people who had come to our country and they didn't speak a word of English people whose you know, you just name it. This one woman stands up, and she says, Well, the thing that most people don't know about me is that I have an Olympic medal. And the room went silent. Right? And I looked at her, she goes, Well, actually, I have two. Oh. And I said to her, let me just tell you this. If I had two Olympic medals, I'd be standing up here with my medals on my chest, leading this workshop. So you all knew I was an Olympian. Like, I never met an Olympian. And maybe I have, and they just haven't told me. And so she was in pharmaceutical sales. And like, you know, obviously, when you're an Olympian or an athlete at that level, I mean, the commitment and, and you name it, you know, all the all the traits that you must possess. And I was like, you have to really make sure people know this.
Kim Meninger
Yes. Oh, my gosh, you're absolutely right. I like the way you described it as being a person of interest because that generates curiosity. And it becomes the basis for more relationship-building, which is something I wanted to bring into the conversation too.
Roberta Matuson
So I just want to I want to interject here just for a moment because I, you and I, before we started, I was talking to you about pickleball. And I play a lot. And I was on the court the other day with a woman who works for one of the major four consulting firms now that are out there. And she said, she was completely taken off guard, when she went out to dinner with some of the senior executives. And you know, she's a director, and they were having dinner. And rather than talking about golf, they were talking about pickleball. And this one guy who didn't play and he played golf, he like felt completely left out. And they kept talking to her and chatting. And like, she was building these relationships with these people. Because they found her to be interesting. And they had no idea that, you know, she played and she and they could have these discussions. So I don't want the people today on your listening to think, well, I don't golf, I don't want to golf. Well, guess what, I don't want to golf, either. You know, but there are other things that you may be doing. You may be an equestrian. You may be you may be learning guitar on your own. I mean, you may be a drummer, I don't know. But I'm sure you're doing something that makes you more interesting. And people don't know about it.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's a good point, too. And I think that, unfortunately, a lot of the interests that make us interesting, aren't as visible. You know, if you play golf, and you run into people, you know, there's, it's easier to know when other people are golfers. But your interest in, you know, an instrument or something that might not come up in conversation might be a missed opportunity. That's another example of where it makes sense to proactively share that because you never know. Yeah. And so you're talking about the relationship-building piece, which I think is so important, too because when you talked about managing up, you talked about built, you know, your boss and your boss's peers. And I think there's a lot of hesitation often about, well, I don't want to bother people, or my boss needs to be the gatekeeper, right? I don't want to look like I'm going around my boss, or Everyone's so busy that I, you know, there's all kinds of reasons why we think that we should just stay in our lane and not actually connect with other people. What are your thoughts on that?
Roberta Matuson
I think, again, a huge opportunity lost, you don't have to be hard around your boss, you could just say, hey, at the next meeting, do you think it's possible for me to present our findings since I was the lead person on this report? I would love to be in the room. Because, you know, there may be questions, quite frankly, that you may not be able to answer and I wouldn't want that to happen. I'll be right there. And I'll be able to answer those questions. So maybe I could do you know, three minutes summary. And then, you know, listen, and then get out when you guys are talking about stuff that I'm not supposed to hear?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really great strategy. Because once again, your boss wins, too, because they don't have to be worrying about being in an uncomfortable situation with questions they can't answer.
Roberta Matuson
And the other thing is when they see your boss, and he or she has surrounded themselves with like these, like fabulous people, they look good. It's like, wow, they must be a really great manager. Like, look how she was great. She just went right in and got it done. Everything was perfect, like, wow. So when the light shines on, you know, you they shine brightly.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I think that's a really good point, too. And I think that there are certainly managers that are insecure and feel threatened when their team members try to maybe build a relationship with their boss or somebody more senior. But I also think there's a lot of value to making sure that you are keeping your boss in the loop on what it is that you're trying to do. If it seems like, you know, if you're having a surprise meeting with your boss's boss, I didn't know what was happening. And, yes, make anybody a little bit paranoid or suspicious, but if you tell your boss, yeah, I'd really like to build a stronger relationship with your manager or with some of your peers and here's why. And here's how everyone wins. I think that eases some of the fear that you're threatened boss might otherwise have.
Roberta Matuson
Yeah, or you never know like, you know, maybe your boss has no idea that your, your spouse is friends with his or her boss's spouse, and you have these people over for dinner. And the guy says, or the woman says, oh, yeah, I was at Peggy's house, you know, last week and we returned in your boss's, like, why would you be? Yeah, there's nothing wrong with you know, keeping people in the loop and, and being, you know, authentic and not trying to hide things because there's nothing to hide. When you when you look like you're hiding something, they get suspicious. So.
Kim Meninger
That's exactly right. And I also think it's important, especially when we talk about getting promoted oftentimes, we might be really good at building a relationship with our own manager, but we forget that there are other people in the room when those decisions are made. [Absolutely.] You have your boss's peers, have to know who you are, and have to understand your value in order to agree with the decision that you're the best person to step into that next role.
Roberta Matuson
Yeah, I've seen people not get promotions, because somebody who was, you know, part of that team is like, Nah, they're not that one. Anybody bought? So? Yeah.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. So, they're, I mean, I think what, what the sort of theme is of what you're saying is, when you're not doing this, it's a missed opportunity, no matter how high quality your work is, right? And I think for a lot of people, that is the, the wish, is like, gosh, if only I could just do my job.
Roberta Matuson
Well, if you want to just do your job, like go into research, or, you know, you can't even just do that if you have your own business, I'd love to tell you as a solopreneur, that, Oh, I don't really have to do anything. Well, I don't have to do anything and don't want to do, that's for sure. But I do have to do things and, and I have to talk to people who I may not necessarily be a huge fan of, but I do it. So these are good skills, especially for those listeners who are, you know, coming into their own and they're starting to move up in the organization. I really go into a lot of detail in the third edition of Suddenly in Charge, half the books on managing up, and the other half is on managing down. And I tell people, if they're not managers, just read the first half, you will get your money's worth because it is chock full of advice and conversations and examples like, like you and I are having.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really important resource. Because this often feels like a secret formula that other people have that we don't.
Roberta Matuson
Well, I wrote honestly, I wrote this book, because this is the book I wished that I had when I was 24. And I think for the first time because this is the third edition. So the book has been the first book was I think in 2010. I think this is the first time my, my children who are now young adults will actually read it.
Kim Meninger
What a great legacy, right?
Roberta Matuson
That’s my, my daughter will not listen to the audio because she's like, he just let that voice mom like it doesn't sound like you. [Leave it to your kids.] I'm like, Look, you don't have to listen to the audio. Just read the book.
Kim Meninger
Well, you have shared so much great wisdom with us today, Roberta I think this is a resource that we can all benefit from no matter where we are in our careers. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you access the book where you know, just get more of you.
Roberta Matuson
They can get a lot of me by emailing me at Roberta at Matuson, M-A-T-U-S-O-N consulting.com. They can go to my website matusonconsulting.com they can send me an invitation to connect on LinkedIn. If you want to do that. That's great. Just please mention that you heard this podcast with Kim because I get a ton of requests. And if you just pop it in there, I'm like sorry.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, thank you, Roberta. And I'll make sure all those links are in the show notes as well. For anybody who's interested. Thank you so much for being here today. This has been such a great conversation.
Roberta Matuson
It's my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.