In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about how to maximize your executive presence without compromising your values. Too many professionals struggle to make their voices heard because they hesitate to sell themselves and their ideas. But what if there were a way to do all of this and stay true to yourself? This week, I talk with Aletta Rochat, an executive presence coach, who believes that stagnant careers shouldn’t happen to good people. Here she shares service-oriented strategies to help us build our confidence, visibility and influence, including specific steps to help you more effectively speak up in meetings, build trust with influencers and showcase your value.
About My Guest
Aletta Rochat is a keynote speaker and Executive Presence Coach. “Most people miss out on opportunities as they struggle to sell themselves and their ideas. I have a process that helps them build confidence, influence and executive presence, so they can excel in their careers.” Aletta works with clients from across the globe and also coaches TEDx speakers. Aletta is the author of Speak Connect Succeed – Build Your Reputation As You Speak Aletta describes leading, coaching and training as her ‘happy place’. She is a Distinguished Toastmaster and currently serves as the First Vice President of Toastmasters International. She lives in Cape Town, South Africa, and loves walking, hiking and running the occasional half marathon.
~
Connect with Aletta:
Executive Presence Self-Assessment™: https://coaching.executivepresenceformula.com/signup LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alettarochat/
~
Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Aletta, it is wonderful to meet you. I'm excited for this conversation today. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Aletta Rochat
Thank you so much, Kim. I have been fascinated about how we communicate with each other from a young age, it probably started because I had what I call a nomadic childhood. My dad was in mining, and he was a specialist shaft sinker, and we move constantly from the time I was born around South Africa. I started nursery school in Zambia. Then we went to Toronto, Canada, and then we went to Burnie Tasmania, and then back to South Africa. And at a very young age, I learned that when you get into a new environment, you're standing in front of your new class, you're the kid who's not starting at the beginning of the school year, you're the kid with a funny accent. And you have to have strategies to be accepted in that community. And that's where my fascination started because it was a survival skill to me. And as I grew up as an adult, I also moved overseas lived in Pittsburgh in the USA lived in the London in the US. And those same strategies that worked for me as a child, helped me as an adult as well. And by a long, circuitous route, I became a coach starting off with presentation skills and interview skills. And now I've moved into what I call executive presence coaching because I firmly believe that stagnant careers shouldn't happen to good people. I've met so many people who are talented, committed, they add so much value, but they struggle to share their ideas in a meeting, for instance, or they doubt they've got what it takes to get promoted to the next level. And as a result, they get overlooked. And I know that just by sharing practical tips and techniques with these wonderful people, they find their voice and they find their way to connect and communicate in a way that other people see value in them. And then they, they start blossoming, their confidence grows, and therefore they see more opportunity, they boulder. And often, that's when they get tired or promoted. So that's my passion is to help other people, accelerate their careers get ahead in whichever way is meaningful to them.
Kim Meninger
I can't wait to dive more into that part of what you just shared. But I have to go back to your personal story and just share that it's very similar to how I describe my own childhood, although it did not bounce around internationally in the way that you did. My father worked for the car industry, and we moved a lot as well. And so we moved a lot within the US, but also in Mexico. And I can entirely relate to what you said about not starting school at the same time that others did. And being the new kid who you know, talks funny, or just, it's, it's so powerful. When I was hearing you talk, I was just sort of transported back in time because I do see, in hindsight, the ways in which that taught me to read the room. I consider myself a really, really comfortable networker because of that. But then there are also a lot of other downsides that came along with it. So I think it's a unique experience that we share. And I appreciate your saying it.
Aletta Rochat
I think that translates into the business world when you start a new job. You moving into a new environment, just like a new school. And you've got to find what the politics are, you know, who reports to whom. But that's only one small piece of the puzzle where the power structures and what are the rules for that particular company. And when I started my professional career in marketing management after graduating, I found office politics exceptionally confusing. Yeah, it just wasn't logical, didn't make sense. And I came to the conclusion that I wasn't made for the corporate world. And eventually when I got married and started a family up to that, but that was actually me not understanding how to leverage my, or build my reputation in that environment. I did well enough, but I didn't feel comfortable. And only years later did I go back as a consultant or a coach in a corporate environment. I love corporate environments. But now I've got the wisdom to see it differently. At the time, I was just trying to make sense of what didn't make sense to me. And it's a tough place to be, it can be very lonely.
Kim Meninger
You're absolutely right. And I often think about that when it comes to politics is that we may look at the system around us and think that other people have access to a blueprint or manual that we haven't been given or you know that we're missing something really important. And so I wonder how you think about the gap and how to fill it right, like so if you could, if you could rewind, or if you just think about how you guide people today, what, what are some of the top challenges or things that you think we're missing that get in the way of what you're describing?
Aletta Rochat
Kim, I found with all the clients I've worked with in the international client base, that there's almost one common thread that I can almost guarantee you every single client will have. And that is that they've struggled to sell themselves and their ideas. And that can be linked to impostor syndrome, it can be linked to self-doubt it can be linked to I was brought up not to be arrogant and not to brag. So there's a multitude of reasons why we hesitate to sell ourselves and especially job seekers, they think that their resume will do the talking for them. And it will up to a point it'll open a door. But after that, you're you have to make it come alive, whether it's an interview, or when you actually get the job. So my starting point with clients is always to take them to appreciating what their skills are and their talents. And there's a funny thing that happens, if you are a whiz kid, let's take an example. Excel spreadsheets and numbers, that's your happy place, you can make them do whatever you need them to do. And you can do it far quicker than everybody else. But to you, that's normal. So you almost by default, say you undervalued at Earth, it's nothing. Meanwhile, to everybody else, wow, you can do that. And they come to you for help or advice or for expertise. And that's a good starting point, what did people come to you for? Because once you can understand what you're good at, then you can start articulating that, and describing the value of what you can add to a job, a company, a project a team. And that's the starting point is actually claiming your own superpowers. And that's a starting point to building that confidence to building that awareness of how you can add value. And one of the many personality tests around but one of my favorites that I always send clients to is called the High five test.com. So it's h i g h, the number five test.com. And you answer a whole bunch of questions. It's a free test. And it gives you your top five strengths, which is interesting and valuable. But what I love about the high five tests, and the each strength, it gives you a description. And in that description, you find the language to articulate how that adds value. Because you might know you're good with numbers. But how does that add value? And if you can understand your superpowers, articulate them to somebody else in terms of the value that you add, you start stepping into a place of confidence a place of I can add value, let me help, rather than saying, I'm going to brag about how good I am at something, it's I can help solve a problem. I've been given a God-given skill. And this is how I can help this is my contribution. Let me have a go.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I feel like you're in my head that is so much about it. Because you're absolutely right, there is a I call it an ick factor. But you know, sort of this discomfort that comes with selling ourselves promoting ourselves. And a lot of that is rooted in either messages that we were told about not bragging right about valuing humility or because we've seen so many bad examples of it that we don't know how to do it in a positive way. And so I love what you said about really starting with what do other people come to you for because we may not have great language for how to even think about our strengths, let alone describe them to other people. And so when I think about the starting point, when you just sort of examine what are the questions that people repeatedly ask you, that's data, there's nothing really subjective about that, right? It just gives you a good baseline sense of, Well, if people keep asking you this question, it's reasonable to assume that they see you as an expert in that area.
Aletta Rochat
And once you relive those experiences, and as you say, that's a databank for you to draw from the next step would be to tell a short story of when you use that skill to add value. And it's a love story that you've experienced. So it's quite easy to tell that story. And you can keep it short and sweet. But you can say, this reminds me of a time when we were busy with this project. And there was this particular problem we had to solve and they came to me because I had the expertise to quickly overcome the obstacles so that we could move on and we save time and we delivered the project within budget. It can be as simple as that. But then it's not you bragging you're just sharing a story of when it worked out then that helps you position yourself as a solution to a problem. And that's the key. If you can see yourself as a solution to a problem, you're more likely to ask to be used in that particular way. But if you can't articulate that or even see it for yourself, then it's hard to push yourself then that impostor syndrome just keeps you lurking in the shadows, as opposed to stepping forward and saying, I can help. Let me let me show you how.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and what I so appreciate about what you're saying is the service orientation, because that's really how I think about it, too. I often, I often share my own way of thinking about it, which is, are Am I coming from a place of service? Or am I coming from a place of ego, right? Because if all I'm doing is talking about how great I am independent of how that connects to the value or the opportunity for someone else to benefit, that's an ego-driven behavior, right? And that's the, that's the kind of thing that we tend to reject because it feels obnoxious and self-serving. Whereas if instead it's positioned in the way that you're describing, it's helping other people understand how can they benefit from what I bring to the table, right? So now it is more so a function of how I can help you. versus, you know how I want everyone to think I'm wonderful.
Aletta Rochat
And people can pick up on that so quickly. And as you say, most of us have a radar for that kind of behavior, where we just roll our eyes and think are pleased to spare me, I don't need to hear this. But if that person is saying I can help you solve a problem, then I'm, I've got a vested interest in listening, and in hearing you out, but if you're just saying I'm wonderful, everybody's saying so what? Just not very impressive.
Kim Meninger
That's exactly right. And so I wonder if you have thoughts on where there might be some more organic or maybe lesser-known opportunities to do this, because I think we often tend to think about it at performance review time, or when we're creating our resumes are interviewing, but there are a lot of other opportunities. Throughout the course of our everyday work lives where we might overlook the chance to do something like this, are there things that you recommend people be on the lookout for in terms of, you know, moments where they might want to engage in some of the behaviors that we're talking about?
Aletta Rochat
Absolutely, you know, let's take a very obvious one speaking up at meetings, many of us spend way too much time in meetings, and often they're not that productive. And the key to making them productive. And the key to being able to sell your ideas or sell your expertise in meetings, is preparation. And that's not always a sexy word. You know, everybody thinks that I'm too busy, I don't really want to spend more time preparing but the power of intention, if you look at that meeting agenda, you look at what the purpose of the meeting is, who's going to be there, and you think ahead and you think, how can I, what is the problem we're trying to solve? How can I contribute to that in a positive way, and you preemptively rehearse what you're going to say, make a few bullet points and practice saying it out loud because if you're a person who's anxious, and doesn't often speak up, it might be quite intimidating in the moment to number one, craft the thought number two, say it out loud. But by doing that ahead of time and saying it out loud, it really gives you a lot of confidence, and then just try it out. It's like a muscle you have to build get used to speaking up. One of the things that people value in the workplace and out of the workplace is that you have an opinion. So it doesn't mean everybody has to agree with you. But it just means you have an opinion, which shows people how you think and shows people how you can add value. And if you can be the one who's super prepared, and is prepared to share their thoughts, not because you want to force your way in. But because it's a contribution. Again, it's the same mindset, let me contribute by sharing my thought. Some people that I work with, hesitate to speak up, and they only speak up at the end of a discussion because they want to give everybody else's time to share and they don't want to say anything that anyone else has said. But then they lose the opportunity to influence the discussion because there's so little time left. So for people like that I encourage you to speak up earlier during the discussion, and just speak up and let it go. Your Words won't always lead to a decision that that you want, but sometimes it will but people hearing your voice hearing your opinions immediately increases your value perception within that team or that organization. So you've got to do it often to develop what I call the executive presence. It's an it's also a surefire way to stop Working in the shadows, and that is to speak up and to make a habit of it.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I love what you say about speaking up early. I think about this for a number of reasons. Number one, speak up early before all the good ideas are taken. But also before your inner critic gets a chance to keep raising the volume, right, because the sooner you keep up, the more comfortable you will be in the conversation. Because you know, when we get nervous, we just were more and more resistant to taking that risk and putting our thoughts out there. And I love how you talk about the preparation piece too, because to your point, you know, we all feel like we have way too much to do. But my philosophy is, look, if you've been invited to a meeting, somebody expects that you have value to offer, or you wouldn't be on the list, right? So use that as an opportunity to showcase your value. And because of our nervous systems, and our, our, you know, self-doubt and impostor syndrome, in those moments, we can't be trusted to strategize on the spot, right? We are it is to our benefit to at least spend some time to your point, taking a few minutes to look at what is the purpose of this meeting, who's going to be there so that we can, you know, not everything is gonna go according to plan, but then we can have a rough idea of how we might contribute to the conversation.
Aletta Rochat
And to add to that can with before every conversation before you send an email before you go to the meeting, you define what you need out of this conversation, what you need to communicate in this email what you need to achieve in the meeting, that power of intention going in with that mindset is so powerful, as opposed to oh, well, I'll make it up on the spot and hope it goes my way. So just spend a moment or two, you know, I put this to the test years ago, I read Simon Sinek’s book, Start with the Why. And I thought I'm gonna put this to the test. So before every email phone call meeting, I would define the why the how the what, according to his framework. And I found that the reaction I got was completely off the charts compared to what it was before by following that framework. But that is also just being intentional. Before you launch into a meeting or conversation. What do I need to get out of it? And what do I need to communicate and in Simon Sinek’s case, he's showing you a structure of how to do so. And those simple strategies don't take particularly long, but you do have to build the awareness and then the habit of putting them into practice.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's a great framework. And I think that is helpful because a lot of us want a process. It's hard to think spontaneously about how to contribute, especially if we're intimidated by the people around us. So whether you use that framework or find another one that works for you, I think it's a great idea to have a go-to kind of methodology or how you want to…
Aletta Rochat
Yeah, and I read something the other day, and I wish I could remember the details, but it was a survey done with senior managers in Fortune 500 companies. And the top skill that they wanted for their employees was the ability to present to senior management. That's often you might be comfortable speaking to your peers, but as soon as it's people have more senior than you, that's often where the wheels fall off. And that's where we need to be more prepared, more intentional than before.
Kim Meninger
Yes, very, very good point. Which brings me to my question that I think you've done a really good job of through the additional comments that you've made define this. But I always like to ask for a more pointed definition of executive presence, because I think it is something that gets thrown around a lot. And we often feel like it's a very ambiguous term. I don't know, maybe people have been told in the past, you need stronger executive presence without any guidance around what that actually means or looks like. So what's your definition of executive presence?
Aletta Rochat
It's a term that's hard to define. And I like to think of it almost like a kaleidoscope. To me, it's rooted in communication, because your leadership, your presence, your decision-making, your awareness is, is communicated in the way you speak or write or present. So it's a set of behaviors which allow you to see the bigger picture. It allows you to speak with confidence to be persuasive and influence for the benefit of the team, that company, whatever the situation is, but it's an awareness and it's rooted in people skills and communication skills. So people with executive presence of people that genuinely other people want to work with. They like being part of that team, they validate they are clear communicators, they see the bigger picture, they don't get stuck in the weeds, and they make and they cause an environment to happen that everybody performs at their best. So that's by no stretch of the imagination, a succinct definition but to me, it's a description. So you'll recognize executive privilege. Since when you see it, and you'll recognize it when you don't see it, but you cannot have executive presence, if you're not a good communicator, if you're not good with people, it's very much people-centered. And it's awareness not only of yourself and how you communicate it, to me communicate, but how other people communicate and bringing out the best in them. So to me, it's almost baked into that is that service mindset as well, I can't believe it, you know, a narcissistic leader is going to they might have elements of executive presence, but they're not necessarily my definition of executive presence.
Kim Meninger
I really appreciate that. Because you're right, I think there are sometimes certain traits that get confused as executive presence or made make up part of what we think of as executive presence, like strength. And, you know, conviction or decisiveness, where as if you really want to win the hearts and minds of people, you need what you're talking about, right? And so I wonder, too, if there are, because I'm going back to what you were saying before about the office politics, and I think about this often in terms of understanding the informal power structure you talked about, we get the org chart, but that doesn't really tell us about, you know, who's who and how our decisions actually made, and what are the kinds of relationships I should be building in order to have more influence. And so I wonder if there are thoughts you have on habits, we can be building outside of these key moments that we have to speak up and share our own ideas that help us to get the lay of the land, so to speak.
Aletta Rochat
When I first started my corporate career, Kim, being in the marketing, management of consumer goods, I worked for Kimberly Clark, and they had a mechanism if I wanted to change one word on a pack, or launch a new product, I had to go through what they called an authority to proceed process. And it involved having to speak to 14 heads of department, and to get each one of them individually to sign off on whatever I was doing before the project could be launched. So it was a very thorough process, it took a lot of time. But what it taught me was that you have to go to speak to the head of the research, and the presentation to the head of research will be different to the head of production, or the head of the finance team, even though we all talking about the same change to a pack of whatever it was. So the key to building networks and understanding how relationships work is understanding what's important to them. And it's the same as when I was a child and you go and you're the new kid in school class, you've got to find out what interests them, then it's easy to join the conversation, as opposed to just talking about what's important to you. So my advice to anyone is reach out to the people around you and ask to spend time with them. But listen, and ask insightful questions. But get the lay of the land from their perspective. And that'll tell you so much more that will make it easier for you to navigate this confusing, ambiguous landscape that is not written down on paper. So it's a lot of building networking, but listening above all, and just being teachable, being humble, and then asking someone else in the organization who's not part of affection, how they see it. And that will help you but you know, don't. I remember years ago, meeting someone whose son was about to start teaching at a high school and the advice she gave this child of hers, because she'd been a teacher, she said, when you walk into the staff room, do not sit down. Because you don't know if you're sitting on someone's favorite chair. So let everybody else sit down. And you can kind of figure out how it works. But don't go in assuming you can just sit anywhere. So it's, it's kind of the awareness you have to build. And you build that by speaking to people and listening to them.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Because I had a manager many years ago, who always used to say don't call the baby ugly. And what he meant was like you don't know when you're coming in with your enthusiastic new ideas. And you think it's a no-brainer. Who idea that's in existence today, right is actually somebody's baby that you're calling ugly, and you don't you don't know those emotional attachments unless you do the kinds of work that you're talking about.
Aletta Rochat
You can get into hot water very quickly, if you're not careful.
Kim Meninger
That's great. And I love what you're talking about of really listening. And I think sometimes it's easy to assume what's important to people because we may know what the corporate goals are or you know, if someone's in sales, we know that selling and their number meeting their number is important to them, but we don't know what's important to them as humans, and they may have specific personal goals or insecurities or fears are uncertainties about different aspects of what we're working on and the better we understand them as people the more sensitive we can be to those areas and that is a really important part of Bill Think influence. So we don't, you know, like you said, Come in and sit in somebody's chair steamroll over somebody, because we didn't take the time to find out who's who? What do they care about?
Aletta Rochat
Yeah, yeah. It's so important. And you know, relationships and reputations are built in moments, not always in decades. But the moment you get it wrong, you've now got an obstacle or you've made an enemy of someone, not that you intended to, but you weren't aware. So it's taking care of the little moments and taking your time to figure it out. And just being aware that maybe you don't know at all. And asking, and in your language is also important, instead of saying, Well, I really think that's a terrible idea. You can rather say, I'm curious, help me understand why this is so important to why it's done this way. And that's a less potentially offensive way of questioning something, rather than saying, Well, how could you have ever thought that would be a good idea, I've got a much better idea. So your language, and as I say, everything is built in the way we communicate. So be sensitive, be caring, be patient, and ask lots of questions and listen, and that often will help you understand so much more.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and do you have any advice for people who are maybe feeling a little bit nervous about reaching out and having some of these conversations, either because they don't have a lot of confidence in reaching out to people that they see as more powerful or more influential, or also, sometimes I think the newer hybrid work models and different organizational structures, make it a lot harder to have just a drop by someone's office kind of conversation and says, you know, there's there are a lot of factors that I think intimidate people when it comes to thinking about these types of conversations, are there anything things that you would offer up?
Aletta Rochat
Yeah, I think start with people you're more comfortable with, you know, you could probably think of 10 people, and some of them, some of them you wouldn't hesitate to reach out and others would be a real stretch. So start off with the ones that you're comfortable with. And be intentional, what is it you want to get out of the conversation? What do you want to understand? Or how can they help you? And be honest, one of the things that I often do, so if I'm reaching out to someone else, say to them, the subject line of my email will be Can I tap into your wisdom, hmm, immediately sets the stage for I'm there to learn from you. And most people are very open to that kind of conversation. Keep it short, don't make an, you know, an hour of it, if it doesn't need to be an hour. But tell them what you want to learn from them, and how you know, it would help you and you are validating their position in the company or their wisdom or their expertise. And that's a good starting point. And then once you've spoken to that person, say to them, who else do you suggest I could reach out to and then just, you know, do it organically. Don't do it. Don't attend in a day. But do you know to a week maybe, or depending on your schedule, but be intentional, because else it's too easy to hide and say, Well, I'm not going to do it. It's actually good for everybody when you do it. So just play with it a little bit. I think too often, we think things are too serious. And we think that that'll be a career-defining moment, when you reach out to that person, it probably weren't. So just play with it and try it and just phrase it the right way to get them to open up and share their expertise with you.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I really, it's funny, you just took the words right out of my mouth. I was gonna say don't take it too seriously. Because then we overthink and we get really nervous and in actuality, and I love your, your question, can I tap into your wisdom, people love to feel special, and they love to talk about themselves.
Aletta Rochat
And you're giving them permission and you setting up something that benefits you at the same time?
Kim Meninger
That's exactly right. So I love your advice to start with people that you feel a little bit more comfortable with. I think of it as sort of concentric circles, right? Start with the lower-hanging fruit that you're more likely to actually take action on. And then once you do the first scary outreach, it feels more comfortable and more natural, you reap the benefits. So it's more motivating and then you can just keep adding on from there. Yeah, anything that we haven't covered yet that you think is important that you typically would offer as part of this conversation.
Aletta Rochat
I think just to really appreciate how special you are the talents you've got and the value you can add. And I often say we need to hear your voice your opinion, because you have got unique experiences that nobody else has. And it's so important that you learn to voice that opinion. Because else we don't know how wonderful you are. So find ways to tell people how you can add value and that is the catalyst for everything else. But you've got to start there with what you're good at. And that's already that's baked in, you've got this wonderful life experience, you've got this talent. But if you keep it to yourself, you're depriving the rest of us of great problem-solving of companionship, friendship and potential. So just really celebrate yourself. Once you do that, and make a habit of doing that and look in your mirror and cheerlead. You know, fantastic. I'm so proud of you, as opposed to just constantly criticizing ourselves, which we all do often. But stop looking in the mirror and saying, Go girl, I'm so impressed with you. Let's do it again tomorrow, that kind of is a jumping a launchpad for so much. And we've all got to just remind ourselves that we've got tremendous value to add, and that other people are dying and waiting for us to add that value.
Kim Meninger
And that's such a powerful way to frame it too, because then again, that service piece comes into play. And we're never more confident than when we are being of service to something bigger than ourselves.
Aletta Rochat
And came out to share one last thing that somebody shared with me that really changed the way I looked at myself, I was running for election for an office. And as part of the prep for that I interviewed many people. And I said to this one person, what's the one thing I must remember in this whole process? And I'd ask that question how many people but this gentleman said to me, remember that you belong? And that to me was so powerful. So if I did belong, in a higher level, or in a new company, whatever that belong is, if I did belong, how would I act? How would I approach this problem? How would I speak up? And that was, to me a pivotal moment, those two words from it, you know, I belong in that mindset, taking that into the unknown with you is a really, in my mind, a game changer.
Kim Meninger
Hmm, that is such a powerful way to wrap up this conversation. I am so grateful for your willingness to come and have this discussion with me a letter where can people find you if they want to connect with you learn more about what you have to offer?
Aletta Rochat
Mmm, thank you, the best way is to connect with me on LinkedIn. And just look up my name and I'll happily connect with you. And then obviously, I share a lot of materials there. And in the show notes, you'll find a link to an executive presence self-assessment that you can do just to start building your awareness of which areas you're already proficient in, and which areas you'd like to develop. And then based on that, if you want to reach out and find out how we can work together then please do a group coaching. I do one on one coaching. And it's my absolute happy place to help people just develop that executive presence so that they can succeed.
Kim Meninger
Well, thank you, again, a lotta and we'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes for anybody who is interested. And it has just been wonderful to have this discussion with you and so valuable. So thank you again.
Aletta Rochat
Thank you, Kim.